BigDingus

No point in cutting him when the other guys at the position aren't doing anything either. And as usual, the O-line is awful, and the QB is his usual inconsistent self.

You know what's funny, I got to thinking when writing this post... If we had a prime Lee Evans right now, I believe Benjamin would standout like a "true" #1. What Lee was able to consistently do in spite of the guys throwing to him, and in spite of the opposing defenses knowing exactly what we were going to do with him, it's truly impressive. And with that kind of threat opposite of Benjamin, perhaps KB could find that space & get those targets. Because as of right now, he's not better than most teams' #1 cover corners, and he's not been good enough to fight off double coverage. And without the speed, he's simply there to catch jump balls, and he's not even doing that.... But with a burner like Evans who can run routes & has pretty good hands on the other side, KB's tenure here could look a lot different.

I think if he entered last year, he would've been a 3rd round pick at best. He benefited greatly from hype leading up to the draft (there's always 1 guy who shoots up based on size & arm strength), but you also have to look at which teams were where, and who needed what at that same point. In hindsight, I think every team who even semi-wanted a QB would now have opted for Mahomes without question. The guy is having a record-breaking year, and its his first season as a starter. Yesterday on ESPN, all the "experts" were talking about earlier favorites for MVP candidates, and Mahomes was the consensus #1 for all of them. So would Allen be taken before Mahomes? No. Would he be taken before Watson? Unlikely. But if he strings together some more pretty good games, the hindsight people might decide he could possibly go before Watson. Will Grier will probably be a 1st round pick too. I dunno, it's 2018...does he also identify as your aunt, or is the vagina just there for show & he actually identifies as your uncle still?

I think people are now realizing it, but were in denial up until recently. But besides that, I'm asking who was the last TRUE #1 WR the Bills have had, if any, in the last decade plus?

As Bills fans, we tend to call any WR who is pretty good (or just not as bad as the other random assortment of filler WR's we have at the time) a "number 1 WR." But over time we realize they may be decent guys, but that they're certainly not true #1 WR type talent. I started thinking back at the last time we had one of those caliber players, someone who'd stack up well on any roster, not just the Bills. Right now we have Kelvin Benjamin, someone who we've called our #1 WR, but honestly wouldn't compare well to true #1's throughout the league. And even compared to our past so-called #1 WR's, Benjamin falls short. Even though our past #1's didn't really feel like #1's outside of Buffalo, many performed admirably given the circumstances. I'd still argue our last real #1 was Eric Moulds, with Stevie Johnson or Evans being runners up. Our leaders in receptions & yards each year (Note: not necessarily WR's) were: *2017 - LeSean McCoy (59 receptions for 448 yards) & Charles Clay (49 receptions for 558 yards), with Deonte Thompson being the top WR with 27 receptions for 430 yards (ouch Tyrod) *2016 - Charles Clay (57 receptions for 552 yards) & Robert Woods (51 receptions for 613 yards) *2015 - Sammy Watkins (60 receptions for 1047 yards) *2014 - Sammy Watkins (65 receptions for 985 yards) & Fred Jackson (66 receptions for 501 yards) *2013 - Scott Chandler (53 receptions for 655 yards) & Stevie Johnson (52 receptions for 597 yards) *2012 - Stevie Johnson (79 receptions for 1046 yards) *2011 - Stevie Johnson (76 receptions for 1004 yards) *2010 - Stevie Johnson (82 receptions for 1073 yards) *2009 - Terrell Owens (55 receptions for 829 yards) *2008 - Lee Evans (63 receptions for 1017 yards) *2007 - Lee Evans (55 receptions for 849 yards) *2006 - Lee Evans (82 receptions for 1292 yards) *2005 - Eric Moulds (81 receptions for 816 yards) *2004 - Eric Moulds (88 receptions for 1043 yards) *2003 - Eric Moulds (64 receptions for 780 yards) *2002 - Eric Moulds (100 receptions for 1292 yards) *2001 - Larry Centers (80 receptions for 620 yards) & Eric Moulds (67 receptions for 904 yards) *2000 - Eric Moulds (94 receptions for 1326 yards) Look at how much we took for granted. We've consistently had pretty bad QB's, but look how many times our leader in reception lined up with leading in yards (which a true #1 SHOULD have in the bag). On top of that, look how many times our leader was an actual WR! From 2000-2012, we only had one season where the reception & yardage leaders were different players. Then from 2013-2017, we've only had that 1 out of 5 seasons. Also in that time, we've had 2 TE's & 1 RB as our reception leaders compared to only twice for WR's, and 2 TE's as our yardage leaders compared to 3 for WR's. We had more consistency at the WR position with guys like JP Losman, Trent Edwards, Drew Bledsoe, Kelly Holcomb, EJ Manuel, Alex Van Pelt, Ryan Fitzpatrick, Jeff Tuel, Brian Brohm, and Rob Johnson than we have in the last several years... Those previous WR's were considered not good enough to be "real" #1's most of the time, yet we've just given the label to Benjamin outright since he got here. We joke about guys like TO coming here, yet he managed to have more receptions & receiving yards than any of our WR's the past 2 years, and he had 3 different QB's start throughout that season throwing to him (Edwards, Fitzpatrick, Brohm)! And Eric Moulds? He had some garbage QB play, yet was fantastic with what he was given. Hell, he managed 1,326 yards & 94 receptions with friggin Rob "Headband" Johnson throwing to him half the year! Honestly, this thread could double as a "why Tyrod is as bad as he looks" thread if this were last year, but I digress... It just baffles me that people still want to label Benjamin a #1 WR, even if only an isolated-to-the-Bills #1 WR, when he doesn't show up. If he truly is our #1 WR, we're in more trouble than I thought at the position. We already had one of the weakest groups in the league, but if someone doesn't step up fast, it has the potential to be much worse. Anyway, do any of those above WR's qualify as #1's, or were they just more of "best thing we got right now" options?

You can't call people haters who are simply relaying the facts about him... He hasn't looked good, has never impressed as a Bills player, and is not a legit #1 WR. He may be a good #2 if we ever got a definitive #1, but otherwise he just doesn't do much. That's not hating, that's just his career so far in the NFL. And if he suddenly does have 1 good game, then what? Does that mean he's made it? Just like Josh Allen having one pretty good game, does that mean we're in the clear? Are you going to spring up every other week & tell us when you're wrong? I just don't get the point of defending Benjamin's work here, like we're all blind to it or something.

Have our defense play like they did last week

He's right on the majority of what he says though. In terms of revenue brought in compared to money the taxpayers are on the hook for, these stadium deals are always a huge loss. They don't boost the economy or bring in anywhere close to the revenue spent on them, but they sure help the owner's bottom line. The only problem this time is unless the taxpayers put up for 70% of the stadium or more, it's unlikely that even the owner(s) would see a ROI for a long time. The Bills don't make a ton in operating profits already, especially compared to other teams. With the salary cap raising (along with the salary floor), teams are going to be expected to pay more & more in costs. So that extra revenue from tickets, concessions, PSL's, etc. will likely go to keeping up with the growing expenses, therefore leaving the team making about the same amount of operating income as they are now. As of last year, they made $67 million (which does not all go straight to the owner's pocket), so if taxpayers chip in $600 million, and the Pegula's throw in another $600 million, it'll take them quite a long time to recoup that money. And the taxpayers? Forget about it...they're not getting that money back. But the county can try to offset the costs like Nevada did with increasing taxes on various things, but people have to decide if that's worth it or not. With that being said, I'm not against these types of deals on all fronts, as sometimes just having an NFL team to cheer for & support may be worth the extra financial burden to some. And if people accept the facts that this won't pay off in the dollar-for-dollar sense & still want to do it, more power to them. The Bills are already the least valuable NFL team in the league, and are one of only 3 NFL teams to fall outside of the 50 most valuable sports teams in the world. Maybe this can get them over the hump? If anything, it'll help ensure their viability in the area for years to come. That alone could make it worth it.

Obviously you're kidding, or at least I hope you are.... It's hard to tell lately. Either way it got a chuckle out of me.

As happy as I am about the win, and even happier Allen performed admirably, I'm becoming more & more frustrated with the fandom for being unable to look at events with any nuance or restraint. I will gladly eat crow and admit I did not think we'd win against the Vikings. I was wrong. However, I only apologize to those who GENUINELY believed we'd win based off some deeper understanding & insight that I overlooked & underappreciated, not to those who consistently say each week the Bills will win by double digit scores, and predict 11 to 12 win seasons every year. And that's the problem, the former has become the exception, while the latter has become the norm. All offseason I was blasted for simply pointing out how bad the O-line is setup. I predicted the offense was going to struggle because of that + the WR group we have. I was refuted by saying our WR's are going to be better than last year (based on nothing), our O-line improved (based on nothing...actually people said the losses would be the source of the improvement), and that young QB's don't need a veteran QB, as it's unimportant (though every year those young QB's, experts, coaches, etc. all tell us the exact opposite). The reasoning behind this is simple - Fans, more than ever, isolate themselves & decide ignorance is bliss, and that each year the team is going in the right direction. I'm sorry, but I'm losing confidence in fans here to have REASONABLE discussions & opinions based on logic & evidence. I enjoy many of the posters, but it's hard to find the ones that want to talk football among the others who want to find an echo chamber to bounce their bias off of. Some of that is to be expected, but the majority of it? Why can't we be honest & respectful rather than resorting to insults when someone points out obvious issues? Why accept anything & everything the Bills do, solely because its the Bills who did it? When they make poor decisions, it's ok to acknowledge that. There are far too many posts lately which underline this problem, and highlight just how far away from reasonable thinking we've grown accustomed to. The fact that the Mahomes vs Allen thread is lopsided in Allen's favor is insane enough. Mahomes, the guy who is destroying NFL records in his first career starts, is getting skipped on by the guy who has never done anything in his HS, Junior College, or College career, and had 1 above average NFL game.... But yes, let's take Allen & Tre White over Mahomes + 1st round pick in 2018 + 2nd round pick in 2018 + another 2nd round pick in 2018 (funny how that thread left out the other picks) Mahomes looked like a stud at every level of the game. In college, yes, he played in a spread offense. But so what? How many other Texas Tech QB's were in spread offenses and either went undrafted, or were drafted late as practice squad filler? Mahomes separated himself for a reason. *Mahomes threw for 4,653 yards & 36 TD's compared to 15 INT's, with 63.5% completions in his sophomore year *Mahomes threw for 5,052 yards & 41 TD's compared to 10 INT's, with 65.7% completions in his junior year (an obvious improvement in every area) *Allen threw for 3,203 yards & 28 TD's compared to 15 INT's, with 56.0% completions his junior year *Allen threw for 1,812 yards & 16 TD's compared to 6 INT's, with 56.3% completions his senior year (missed 2 games, but that doesn't account for such a substantial drop off) *Mahomes was such a prolific passer, he set the single-game FBS passing record with 734 yards against Oklahoma (you know, an actual good school), and set the FBS record for total yards with 819 (not to mention 7 TD passes in that game) *Mahomes is only the 3rd QB in college football history to have over 5,000 yards of total offense in more than one season *Mahomes lead the country in yards per game, total yards, and total TD's his junior year. *Mahomes is the youngest QB to throw for 6 TD's in a game in the NFL *Mahomes has thrown the most TD passes through the first 3 games of a season in NFL history, which also set the NFL record for most through first 3 career games. But Allen, man....he could POTENTIALLY be good, he could POSSIBLY put up numbers even close to that one day, he MIGHT become a franchise QB one day, and he didn't do anything notable in college...but hey, why take someone we've seen be great on the field when we have someone that MIGHT be good one day? Why take $1,000,000 in cash up front when we could throw it down in Vegas and hope to get $10,000,000?! I mean, that would be the logical thing to do right? And you know why it's hard to have conversations on these boards? Because people want to knee-jerk react to everything, discredit anything that isn't their's while pumping up everything that is, and throw fairness & reason out the window for "rah rah" antics. Darnold wins a game? Doesn't matter. Darnold loses a game, "HAH! Knew he sucked." Allen looks bad in a couple games, "Doesn't matter." Allen looks pretty good in one game, "See! This is who he REALLY is!" Where did nuance go? When did citing reality become being a "hater" or being called "'negative?" Why are facts offensive, and why are opinions based on evidence frowned upon, while blind faith is applauded? Clearly, I'm frustrated. I want to talk football with people, respond to threads & have engaging discussions, join in conversation with those who share a love for the Bills, etc. I want to speculate on future moves, talk about what the team is missing & how to improve that, compare strengths & weaknesses for each matchup, and just have a good time. But how can that happen when the Bills apparently have the advantage against every team, or how there aren't any major problems, only minor issues that can get shored up before the game, or when every article or breakdown is just "biased media" or "no-nothing hacks" who hate the Bills for no reason? You point to Josh Allen's career inaccuracy issues, and suddenly "accuracy doesn't matter." You point to how QB's drafted on potential, hand size, and arm strength rarely pan out, and it's discredited as being some other QB's "fanboy." I mean, right now the Bills have the most 3 & outs in the league (again), and are on pace to hit a 15 year league high record, but I'm sure that'll be dismissed just like it was last year with Tyrod. Either that, or we'll blame the OC (which I predicted will happen before the season, and the talk has already started) & spin the wheels once more with a new hire to subdue the crowd. Anyway, I'm sure this will be tossed aside by most for not being with the program, or just more "negative Nancy" talk, but I honestly hope to reach a few people on maybe trying to consider it's Ok to have reasonable discussions with people who aren't sold on every facet of the Bills decision making & roster building process. It's Ok to admit other teams have superior X position players than us. It's Ok to acknowledge we've made mistakes in certain areas. And none of what I've said is saying "JOSH ALLEN IS A MISTAKE!" Again, I'm neutral on him for at least this year. Would I take someone like Mahomes over him? Absolutely, but I've seen him play for a long time, and now he's doing exactly what he's always done & at the Pro level. If Allen only does exactly what he's always done, but at a Pro Level, it'll be considered a huge failure. He needs to do what he's never done in order to succeed in the NFL, and that's what has my neutral on him. I hope he can, I will support him, and I will support the Bills, but I can only speak for what the evidence shows. On that note, I wish you all the best, I hope at least a couple people take to heart some things I've said, and I look forward to discussing more Bills news with everyone in the future. Have a great day everyone!

First off, this scenario is an easy pick for any non-biased NFL fan. Anyone saying they'd pass on Mahomes is a homer. Second, if we didn't grab Allen, we'd have extra picks as well. So it should be - A) Mahomes + 1st round pick in 2018, 2nd round pick in 2018 and another 2nd round pick in 2018 or B) Josh Allen & Tre White

Wait, was he really? Never heard that until now

There's a lot of differences between the Bears & Bills... The Bears already had a very good pass rush & solid overall defense last year, then inserted the best defensive player in the league into that team. They also have the same coaches & schemes from the prior year, while we do what we likely will do what we always do & blame the OC for everything, fire him, and start again (speculation obviously). They also have a better O-line, and more talent at the skill positions. Trubisky also didn't turn the ball over much, and we do. On the flip side, he wasn't throwing TD's very much either, so there's that. But with all that being said, there could be a slim chance if our QB & O-line can work together in figuring out how not to get him killed, and get some valuable experience & legit lessons. Then when we get that $90 million in dead cap money freed up, we have a chance at landing some great talent though we may have to overpay. And if McBeane can nail the draft, we have a shot. It could happen, but a lot has to go right.

Since when is Cleveland the franchise you want to point to for lessons in successful roster management or drafting? lol How many fails did they have first? Allen being their other choice could mean they finally bucked the trend of picking poorly by not selecting him. They could go for the guy who produced at an elite level for many years against great competition but was considered "small" by QB standards, or they could pick the guy who LOOKS the part and has that great arm, yet did nothing against inferior competition in college. If the Browns took Allen, this board would be sitting here laughing their asses off about what fools they are, and how they picked the unknown with POTENTIAL over the guaranteed production. Then again, it's still the Browns & they could just as easily ruin Mayfield. You never know.

Don't forget, table slamming being banned, and now the Bills Twitter not knowing where Minnesota was.... Things are going to get more ridiculous soon, I can feel it lol

It's funny, I lived in (and still live near) Dallas for 15 years now, and as much as I enjoy it, I still loved the times I went to Buffalo. I constantly hound my wife about taking another trip, and really think I'd enjoy living there. But who knows, maybe it's one of those places I'll love visiting, but moving there I'd have a different opinion.

Why? The Vikings are FAR superior to the Ravens, and the Ravens were 44 points better than the Bills. If the line was Ravens favored by 20 points, would you have thought that was absurd? Not to mention the Vikings are definitely the best team we've faced this year, and we're playing them in Minnesota. 17 points seems generous all things considered.

I just assume they must be from some old, bygone era where nobody cared to look into the psychology & mindset of anyone. You know, the same camp of people that used to point the blame back on a woman who was sexually assaulted, saying it was her fault because she wore short shorts, or her belly button was showing. She may have even winked at the guy. How was he ever supposed to control himself when she clearly set herself up for it? And yeah, Ray Rice's good nature was not why his wife stayed with him. Just like most women, they feel they either need to stay to protect the child, or have a legitimate fear for their life & what would happen trying to leave.

Why would she ever need to come out and publicly say "LeSean is a great father and would never hurt our son!" Unless her son or her were showing signs of abuse, there's no reason to go on record saying those things. Also, it's pretty well known by now that victims of abuse often cover for & defend their abuser, as they fear retaliation and are afraid to leave them.

This thread is ridiculous... Please, point to where the media is annointing him a HOF player, or singing undeserved praises. Unlike our first round QB, Darnold actually played at a high level against good competition, put up good numbers, and was on of the best in his conference. Did you post a similar thread for Josh Allen in regard to the board? Something like "Will tonight's game delay Allen's Wall of Fame ceremony in Orchard Park?" or "Will fans let Allen make it through training camp before proclaiming he's the best QB from the draft?" Wreaks of jealousy & pettiness. What are you going to say about Mayfield getting all the praise he's going to get this week? You going to get upset that players, pundits, and all the "experts" talk so highly of him & praise what he was able to do for Cleveland in his first game, when an established veteran like Tyrod could not? Darnold is a damn good player. Sorry you never paid attention to him enough to know that.

Can't wait until Allen wins a game...Bills 2019 Super Bowl Champions predictions will skyrocket!

The fact the Browns had the 31st ranked passing offense this season, similar to the passing offense the Bills had under TT, is also sheer coincidence. He's a good QB guys, geez! He just doesn't have the weapons around him! You could throw Aaron Rodgers fused with Tom Brady out there, and they wouldn't have done any better in these conditions! Wait.... a rookie seeing his first NFL action mid-game played better? Uhhh...obviously that's the Jets one weakness, everybody knows that, duh!

Shocker. The passing game suddenly looked decent, and the Browns win their first game since 2016 when Tyrod goes out.... It'd be nice if those who argued how good Tyrod was for all those games last season would step forward & accept defeat. Just because he doesn't throw interceptions, doesn't mean he's good.

THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU! I've been saying this LONG before the season started, and how it'll be (and was in reality) a huge mistake. People kept trying to dismiss it on these boards saying it wasn't important, or mocked veterans like Josh McCown trying to laugh it off. Meanwhile, all throughout the draft & afterwards in interviews, players & coaches would say the exact opposite. But what do players and coaches know? The fans on the board clearly think a veteran mentor/leader/guide/person to sit behind while they learn the ropes doesn't matter...just like they made themselves believe that Allen was pro-ready & would excel as a rookie at the NFL level day-1, even though we all knew prior to the draft that Allen was the most raw & risky QB of the "big 4." We knew he was a project, we knew he'd benefit from sitting behind a veteran who could help him get up to speed, we knew his stock was so high based on size & arm strength rather than on-field production, ability to read a defense, or monster stats. Yet because the Bills took him #7 overall, everything we knew to be true got thrown out the window & replaced with excitement & hype, along with the unfair & unrealistic expectations that do Allen a disservice. Now we're going down an all too familiar route, and we're seeing the same bad management & poor decision cliches beat for beat. Soon, we'll see the outcries for firing the OC, which will set Allen back even further. And if it keeps going this way, expect to see the coach feel extra pressure to save his job due to finishing with such a lousy record, leading to him finding that veteran QB a year too late, and putting him in a "QB competition" withe Allen through training camp. Then we'll have another Kelly Holcomb/JP Losman situation, where you're swapping back & forth between the 2, leading to the loss of confidence the QB & his teammates for him. All of this was so easy to avoid, and you could see the issues from miles away. I only hope McBeane recognize they're heading down the wrong path, and to avoid the typical course corrections so many others tried that lead to even more failure.

Poor thing. I really hope her family is ok. Condolences and prayers for her & her loved ones. Losing someone at that age must be devastating.