Rochesterfan

I agree - that is the question can he learn and the will it stick. It is part art of the reason they can not rush him this year. You need a lot of time to redevelop the muscle memory and if he plays and the bullets fly and he reverts - just reset the clock.

Changing a throwing motion or arm placement is very, very difficult and I do not think goes very well ever. That is inherent to the QBs passing. Better footwork and learning how to stride and square up is more teachable. The question becomes when under pressure do you revert. Many times - especially a guy with a rocket for an arm - they throw everything with just their arm and once shown proper feet placement they can improve. Watching QBs play - the arm motion changes very little for most QBs throw to throw, but their feet change every play depending on if they are on the move, pocket collapsing, getting pressure from the side, stepping up. I think the base is easier to teach than a change in arm motion. Additionally that is what Palmer has been working on. I wish I knew if it would work, but to me working the base is better than guys like Mahomes last year with a funky throwing motion they wanted to work on.

I don’t know if it is easy - mental reps and falling into old habits is very hard to break, but unlike many of these other QBs that focused solely on QB play since junior high - Josh did not have that luxury. He played multiple sports throughout school because of the size and if anyone thinks the coaching staff at Wyoming had the people and the time to devote to teaching one specific position the way he NFL does - they are crazy. What I loved about listening to Jordan Palmer leading up to the draft is how he kept talking about how coachable this guy was and how little he had been taught. Jordan worked with both Josh and Sam and gushed repeatedly about Josh in every interview I heard. He had good things to say about Sam, but the praise for Josh was on a different level. It was also noted that after working with Palmer for a few weeks - his accuracy, footwork, and play in the Senior Bowl was vastly improved. The work continued and his throws at the combine and his Pro Day and his private workouts was supposedly excellent. None of that means it will stick, but if as Palmer was saying - a lot of his issues with accuracy and touch were due to never learning proper footwork and throwing base - then yes he can improve. I will never expect him to lead the league in completion percentage- he is not Drew Brees or Brady, but if he can get better and make the needed throws on time - he can be a franchise level QB that can win you games in this league.

Jordan was saying it before he was drafted by the Bills. He was talking about how hard he worked on his footwork and how much that improved his overall accuracy. It was seen when he went to the Senior Bowl and was pretty accurate compared to what he had shown durning the regular season and was better at the combine and private workouts. Maybe growing up in a small town and going to a small school - he had a lot to be taught and Jordan said his work ethic was exceptional- so maybe with training and proper teaching he can get better. We will see, but I will give him the benefit of the doubt and want to see him learn and grow. I would love to see the Bills bring in a guy to really work on those specific things and really develop this kid because he could be special, but if they do not keep him growing and learning - he could easily bust.

I think Allen would love that, but Palmer has a business training these guys to get ready for the NFL and it sounds like that is his love - not sure we could get him, but I would love it if he wanted to be a QB coach even on the side.

And Beane said today on WGR that TB and Denver both wanted both 1st round picks and Denver wanted more. So he gave up 2 late 2nds rather than both 1sts and maybe a 3rd. Not sure what is worse, but they held the 2nd 1st so we could get the LB - which was good because both top LB do not make it to our picks without the trade up.

And if Miami and Arizona took both QB and we were blocked out - you would be complaining about how this was the Big Ben all over again. The Bills got a top 4 QB and a guy that many pundits put at #1 throughout the process.

Jordan Palmer who has been working with Allen - said some of the same things. He praised him for how hard he was working on his footwork and how much his accuracy improved. He also raved about his work ethic and his sense of humor. I really think that once he gets NFL coaching and guys working specifically on those issues - you will see improvement. Does that mean he will be a star - NO, but I also think he has the ability to improve - so let’s see what happens. Palmer did say his accuracy improved greatly working on his footwork and praised his hard work. He also said he had an amazing arm and was someone he thought had huge potential. Of course it is his client, but he heaped praise on him over a guy like Darnold that was also his client.

Where do you get he does not know football- it was acknowledged at the combine he did some of e best whiteboard work. It sounds like he gets football just fine and is a hard worker. Let’s see what having a real coaching staff training him is like.

Yes because at that point there was only 1 team bidding - so they were not competing against another team. What we do not yet know is how teams had them rated, but the Cards did not have a ton of ammo - so if the Bills felt Allen was the guy and had him rated significantly higher than Rosen- great go get him. It sounds like the cards had Allen rated higher also and tried, but maybe had them closer. If we don’t trade up - you have TB sitting there to take another defensive player - a likely scenario is taking either Smith or Fitzpatrick - with Chicago taking the other - so the question is Miami sat still because they had a choice of Rosen or Fitzpatrick going to them because of the trade ups. Everything changes if the Bills decide to stay put - they may get Rosen or they may get shut out and based upon how they acted Rosen was not their pick - so either would have been bad. Look - I am on record as saying Allen was not the QB I wanted - I love watching Rosen play, but these guys look at so much more and if they think Allen is who they want based on talent and personality- then I would rather they get him and go all in than taking someone they are less happy with. I would much prefer they get their guy than not get a QB - the potential was there that if they wait they lose out and therefore they went up to get their guy.

Based on repots - nope - Arizona would of taken him at 7 instead of the Bills. Then the question is would the Bills have moved up for Rosen or does he get picked by Miami - where the ESPN guys were predicting him to go before the trades. So the real question is how do you feel if we stayed and 12 and got no QB and both the Jets and Dolphins got 2 of the top 4 QBs?

Two shots and the Pats didn’t want him - oops.

If both QBs were in the same draft - Allen most likely goes higher - so give me Allen and Tre all day long.

Who do they want and who did Cleveland draft. Once we have those answers- we can move up. Because Cleveland was not trading #1 and the Giants are not trading with the Jets - so they traded as high as they could get and way overpaid to get there.

Mayfield getting caught by the cops is worse.

Agreed, but it was done for a reason - so obviously it means something in the NFL view. To me it means less than the arrest of Mayfield and many other personal issues, but because of the timing this will seem much worse. It is just like how unfair it is to complain about Rosen and his concussions, but Mayfield who had multiple concussions gets a pass and Allen gets a pass on his injuries. There is enough of an issue that I think it makes it difficult on the kid coming in to a locker room, but has no impact on his play or where he should be drafted, but it becomes one more obvious red flag for front offices. My guess is this is not a surprise to the different GMs that doing their homework have already seen and questioned these, but once it is out in the open - now it becomes a locker room and media issue that you have to answer to.

Neither - Rudolph at 22 or Lauletta/Falk in 2nd

Because he has just been trolling right along - both in the other threads and now. Trolling

I think hand strength would not be something overly important myself. If you were going to measure it - get a regulation sized football with sensors and measure the pressure as the actually are passing the ball. The issue I have with hand strength is if you have smaller hands, but strong grip strength - it can actually lead to the ball coming if the football is hard and slick whereas a guy with bigger hands could still control the football. Hand size is considered important not because of fumbles, but because larger hands allow better control and accuracy in passing. The QB rarely if ever would exert full pressure on the ball.

This draft was done with no trades - so I think it is pretty inaccurate - I believe there will be several spots to move up and I would be shocked if there is not at least on trade someplace in the top 10. I don’t know how things will go for the top picks, but I think this is about as lazy of a mock draft as any site puts out.

Flacco is another interesting name because he was a rookie of the year, a Super Bowl MVP, holds a bunch of Baltimore and a few NFL records for regular and post season play, but does not fit the criteria due to a lack of ProBowls. The ProBowl piece is the part that is hard to guesstimate in this as it is such a popularity contest over meaning something. It is just fascinating to me.

Based on you definition- I think at least 3 or 4 - so I will go with 3. At least 2 of the top 4 guys and one additional from the lower ranks. I mean guys like Andy Dalton and Matt Schaub fit that criteria. Heck TT is close with 1 PB and a 3 year starter in Buffalo. Even Vince Young is a multi time ProBowler that played 5 seasons for Tennessee. Interestingly (at least to me) Matt Stafford does not fit this criteria as he has only 1 ProBowl I believe. I think there are at least 3 guys easily that can hit this especially as several guys that go yearly - Brady, Brees, Manning are on the way out. It would not shock me if 5 guys ended up fitting this description from this draft.

Agreed - I mean look at the drop Garrett had last year when it came out he was interested in dinosaurs and may want to go back to school and study paleontology. Many of these kids have goals and interests outside of football - the key is talking and understanding those goals and how to obtain them while still giving the all for the team. I think McDermott is really good at that because he actually seems to care about the players and wants to connect.

See but here here is the issue - most of the guys you mention do not fall into you original question - so I stand by the fact that you have trouble defying your parameters and sticking to it. The original question you asked was projects, from small schools, drafted in the top 10, since 1979 were successful? So that gives you guys like: Carson Wentz Blake Bortles Alex Smith Philip Rivers Byron Leftwich David Carr since 2000 as potential fits for you and even then some are from smaller sized D1 schools and some were not projects in the same regard, and some the jury is still out on. If Allen hits this group - your success rate is pretty good, you chance to be an average QB is pretty good, and your bust rate is fairly low. Now to try and get across the point you were trying to make which is you do not like Allen and you think he will bust - you expand it and start adding guys later in the draft or guys from bigger main D1 schools, or other projects to find a pool that fits what you want. In the end - just like most of your arguments - step away from the small picture and look at the overall. The bust rates an QBs and draft position have been given many times - each player is unique and instead of trying to find his pool and decide that understand there is bust potential and franchise level play in all of these round 1 QBs - where they go - the teaching they get - the offense they run - the Offensive consistency they have - will all factor into whether they succeed or fail. I do not disagree with your conclusions- it is just your method of trying to find and fit him into a group that is the problem and then expanded the group to include guys like Tannehill, Cutler, Locker, but questioning better fits like Big Ben or Flacco is just strange. I mean when you expand it why not include Eli Manning or Stafford or Aaron Rodgers - all went to Div 1 schools, but all needed work coming out. A guy like Rodgers fell to mid 20s - a perfect example of a developmental QB that is a success.

Agreed - hard to look at the percentages and gain anything meaningful when the hits and misses are all over the place.