Rochesterfan

Gronk gets called for OPI as much or more than anyone. Den also gets his share of OPI calls. Some of it depends upon the reaction of the defender - in the Bills case the guy goes 4 yards down field falling. I think there was contact and his arm extends, but I also think the DB gets his feet tangled making it look worse. I think that is a call that can go either way and it went against us. I don't think it was a bad call, but it also has gone without being called because it is borderline. I heard them say something, but never saw a replay because of the hurry up. It looked like his mask got pulled down - did not see it turn at all, but still could of been called.

Much like last year - I have no idea what we are going to get with the back-up, but we know what we have with the starter. Is Peterman better - Heck if I know. What I do know is that the offense under Peterman will look very different than under TT. Will it look better - that I can not say. I think we see a higher volume of passing and probably some more turnovers, but we also see a more fluid looking offense. I think there will be drives that backfire because I do not think Peterman has NFL accuracy or arm strength yet, but I think they are designing this offense for the future and I want to see who can do what if the QB tries to make some plays.

Without the All 22 - I can just go off the broadcast, but: There was O'Leary on a roll-out that TT never stopped looking at his Outside Receiver - ended up throwing a poor ball to a guy with a DB sitting on him.. There were at least 2 plays early that TT bailed on with McCoy open right in the middle of the field. The throw to Zay at the end he also had a wide open McCoy. As we watch the all 22 - there was at least one play early that we rewound and you could see Clay open underneath. I also will be interested because I think the WRs were in 1:1 coverage a lot and he rarely made a play to them anywhere. The O-Line was not great, but he bailed to many times instead of trusting the progression and getting rid of the ball on time - even if you think the receiver is covered. He made a great throw the one time he dared to stay in get pocket and take the hit.

I would take Zay and Jordan and a 2nd and a 3rd and EJ Gaines. We have seen what Sammy and Robert did for the passing game the last 2 years - very bottom. Time to move on.

TT is acknowledged to throw a nice go route down the sideline (a fairly safe pass) - he was never very good at actually throwing to a receiver. Why was Peterman able to go from 3rd string WRs to 2nd string was to starters through 3 games and trust them, but TT can't trust the starters? The trust is on TT. Sammy when he was here complained about not getting the ball from TT - do you think it would be different.

Yet he completed only 2 less passes than TT and doubled his yards and threw a TD to go with a pick. Watching Goff was bad, but TT was terrible.

Plus after 2 weeks Jordan Matthews in a run first offense has more receiving yards than Sammy. Robert Woods had 1 whole catch for 8 yards today. One less than his replacement in Buffalo. Not sure either of these guys would help based on how they have played in weeks 1 and 2.

They are not running wide open, but they are running downfield one on one, but if the WR is not Wide open and facing TT - he does not make that throw. QBs all over the league make passes to WRs that have a defender covering them - if they are one on one - they trust that receiver to make a play - sometimes they do and sometime they do not. If as everyone keeps saying - Carolina had 9 guys in the box trying to stop the run and contain TT in the pocket - then the WR and TEs should be one on one - TT needs to grow a pair and throw those guys open. I saw several times TEs were open for 1st downs, but TT did not come of his first covered read or he chose to pull the ball down and run. It is 3 years worth of the same thing - TT does not turn the ball over because he does not take a chance and trust his players.

The entire game is not on TT, but he did nothing to make the game better. He telegraphed throws to the flat to RBs, He missed guys like Clay and O'Leary running underneath because he was focused on one WR that was covered, He left protected pockets several times when at the top of his drop - guys were open and then chose to run twice very late in the game when we were trying to conserve clock - rather than just throw the ball after after a poor choice of scrambling. I could go on and on. He makes a few plays (see last week), but because of a lack of throwing awareness - he leaves too many plays on the field because he cannot get through a progression quick enough. Overall the game was poorly played by the offense, but just like Baltimore last year - you sometimes need a QB to make a play - and/or trust a guy and make a throw to at least back guys off. TT did not do that - Carolina would blitz and TT was looking for gaps to run rather than hitting his drop and throwing the ball to a WR that is one on one. You also saw how they telegraphed where TT likes to throw - and jumped several out routes - that left guys like Clay and O'Leary open near the hash marks several times that I could see from the broadcast angle. It is not going to be fun looking at the All-22.

Yet when they got a real QB in Orton the offense opened up. Maybe it is not the offense, but the QB. 2 Weeks of very average (at best) play out of the position.

You mean the same Watkins that has 8 catches for less yards than Matthews when Matthews is on a run first team. I think if Sammy was on the team - we would be hearing complaints about throw me the ball and he would be a non-factor.

LOL - funny stuff

Yeah - that was a killer - throw it to a guy covered with 2 guys coming at you. Right in the game flow a wide open TE for a first down, but TT stares at 1 receiver and doesn't follow progressions at all.

They ran some screens - the QB does not throw slants - he throws outs and corners to guys very late. There were serval times where you could see open guys underneath that TT did not see. He is what he he at this point - a very average QB that cannot read a defense. He was average last week and straight up low tier this week.

Agree it was close but when the DB goes down it gets called

He gave him a chance, but that throw was terrible and not the first bad throw he has had.

Disagree - everyone was close and they got the play off in under 13 seconds. The QB on 2 straight plays needs to either throw it away or try to fit it someplace- the QB screwed up by running the ball when we need to pass.

No kidding - had him right in time and refused to throw it and gets sacked. Terrible.

Already been said with first drive - LOL

I agree fully- it is easy to diagnose after the fact, but live it may be difficult, but I think you are right that is what differentiates QBs at the his level. I think that is why a guy like Peyton could play the way he does, but I do not think he could teach someone to do what he did.

This is literally exactly what I said in the TT thread. My issue is the safety Adams (I think) is the key. TT first read is to Zay, but the key is Adams. TT knows that Zay is coming toward the middle and that Clay is moving from the middle out. QB 101 on that play is what does the safety do. TT is looking right at him and the safety drifts outside and back. Immediately in his drop - TT should be thinking the throws goes to Clay and he should of hit the end of his drop and hit Clay right after the break at the 3 yard line with no one around him. Instead TT keeps watching Zay and finally slides 2 steps 2 the left in the pocket and comes off to Clay. He makes an acceptable throw to Clay and one that I would of like to see caught, but Clay is running toward the sideline with his shoulders toward the sideline And the throw is behind him. That is a difficult catch. Most back shoulder throws are a guy running down field and then stopping and turning back , but this was a guy going 1 way having to reach behind him. It is not impossible, but it is not a catch everyone makes - especially knowing he hit is coming. I do not expect Clay to make that play - I do not think he is an elite level TE. I think he is good, but Whaley and Rex wanted him and way overpayed to get him. The attempt was adequate, but he is not an elite level pass catcher. My only issue with the play and I agree fully with Magox is the read should of happened faster to get off Zay and to Clay or he had to hold it longer for Zay to clear the Safety and LB on the end line, but Clay on time was an easy TD - unless the call the push off on Clay.

I agree - I have looked at it from about a million angles. I think Zay is his first read - the issue I have and it is small, but there is 1 defender that he should be reading to determine where to go. There is a safety? (the one that ends up hitting Clay) that is the key to this play. If he slides toward Clay - Zay should be the read - if he slides down and out (as he does) then TT must come off Zay and hit Clay nearly immediately . It should of taken a 1/2 second to read during the drop back and then the ball has to come out to Clay. TT holds the ball moves to the left to perhaps open a lane and then finally comes off and picks up Clayto late. At that point Clay is bracketed by defenders. The pass itself was within the realm of making a catch, but the time is where I had an issue. Again overall TT was what we have seen and if the D can play at that level we will be fine.

It is not the pass to me that is the issue and I feel very justified from my earlier posts. The pick is on TT not because of the pass - where he put the pass was not great, but Clay had a shot - it was how late the pass to Clay was. I will repeat and for those that need to watch it there are links in this thread and others. TT gets to the end of his drop and he is looking for Clay. Clay makes a break at the 4 and pulls immediately away from the LB and is open. TT pulls the ball down and drifts one step to the left. Clay is still open and a throw there to the exact same spot he eventually throws it and it would have been a touchdown, but TT drifts one more step to the left and then tries to fit the ball into the only open spot left high and behind the TE at that point. Clay gets a hand on the ball barely - He could of done better and that part is on Clay, but the pass at that point was way to late. That is what I saw live - that is what I saw on replay - now that is confirmed on the All-22. As I have repeatedly stated - it was not where he threw the ball that was the issue - it was when - especially after watching him stare at Clay the entire play - he has his eyes right on the final location from just after the snap - that part is all on TT. As I said - this to me was a standard TT game - he made some nice plays and missed some plays. He made some good throws and some throws that were late. He moved out of the pocket unnecessarily a few times and into more pressure, but also stayed in the pocket. It was a standard game - nothing to complain about and nothing to get excited about. He will play better in a few games this year and will play worse in a few games and will have 7 or so other games in this very vein. There is a ton of argument on both side because we are a passionate fan base and TT is so middle of the road. There are guys that want better and bash TT for things that an Elite QB can do - that TT will never do - and there are people that praise TT for doing things that make him a Top 10 QB like completion percentage and TD/INT ratio and running the ball. Both sides are correct and both sides want to see someone that will help the team win - it is all about perspective and what you are willing to look for. I for one love the argument when both sides bring facts and info and there are many ways for both sides to be correct. I dislike the few extremes on both sides that just fling out crap like it is truth. The nice thing is it seems there a larger number willing to bring their opinions with some facts and we need more of that and less cold hard statements.

Agreed - I think after they review the game hopefully they will find some areas of improvement and they will adjust. I think this game was exactly what we have been seeing from him for 2 years. Some positives and some negatives.

That is fine - just wait and watch it. If he throws it when he hits his drop - he has a chance. TT pulls the ball down takes 2 steps to left and then forces the ball into a back shoulder throw. The pass was not horrible, but the throw needed to come out much sooner. It is not the throw it is the fact that he is late - that is why it is as much on TT as Clay. It is what is is - the Bills won and lead the division.