mannc Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 Anyone else have a problem with DJ kicking a field goal on 4th and goal at the 1 yard line on the first drive of the game? I have a major problem with it. First, if you can't score from there, you really don't deserve to win anyway. This was not exactly the Steel Curtain we were facing. Second, the failure to go for it there (especially on the road, and especially after the Dolphins marched the length of the field for a TD on their first possession) sends a negative message to your team: "We don't have much confidence in you. We're just trying not to lose here." That seems to be a typical Bills mind-set these past 15 years or so. One thing that I have always admired about Belichick's and Parcells's teams is that they almost always go for it one fourth and short in the other team's end of the field (especially on fourth and goal from inside the 3 yard line), and they almost always succeed. By contrast, the Bills (and most other losing franchises that are more worried about being second-guessed) seldom do. Finally, even if you go for it and don't make it, the other team has to go 99 yards; there is a very good chance you will get the ball back inside mid-field. Oh yeah, and didn't we draft a wide receiver in the second round with the expressed purpose of having him haul in short passes in the red zone in situations like that (not to mention on second or third down)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 Anyone else have a problem with DJ kicking a field goal on 4th and goal at the 1 yard line on the first drive of the game? I have a major problem with it. First, if you can't score from there, you really don't deserve to win anyway. This was not exactly the Steel Curtain we were facing. Second, the failure to go for it there (especially on the road, and especially after the Dolphins marched the length of the field for a TD on their first possession) sends a negative message to your team: "We don't have much confidence in you. We're just trying not to lose here." That seems to be a typical Bills mind-set these past 15 years or so. One thing that I have always admired about Belichick's and Parcells's teams is that they almost always go for it one fourth and short in the other team's end of the field (especially on fourth and goal from inside the 3 yard line), and they almost always succeed. By contrast, the Bills (and most other losing franchises that are more worried about being second-guessed) seldom do. Finally, even if you go for it and don't make it, the other team has to go 99 yards; there is a very good chance you will get the ball back inside mid-field. Oh yeah, and didn't we draft a wide receiver in the second round with the expressed purpose of having him haul in short passes in the red zone in situations like that (not to mention on second or third down)? Jauron takes the odds EVERY TIME. An up for grabs lob to our WR is not a high percentage play on fourth day. In any situation, Jauron takes the odds. In the first quarter, on your first drive, you take the points. If you're looking for a coach who makes ballsy calls, you've got to find a new team to root for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattyT Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 They did go to Hardy once in (or near) the red zone on that drive. I had a bigger problem with them using Jackson on every down instead of Lynch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ned Flanders Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 I didn't have a huge problem with it at the time...thought it was early in the game, just get the points. Does not excuse not getting the TD, however. With three shots from inside the five, you should be able to get the TD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lets_go_bills Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 You have a problem with that? I have three problems with that. 1. Trent drove us all the way down there, and then they run three straight plays with Fred. Should've been Marshawn. 2. We should have thrown on at least one of the plays. I would have liked to have seen Trent roll out right and toss one to the TE. 3. 4th and 1 on the 1. Should've gone for it. Too conservative on Jauron's part. Because if we get it, 7 points, and if not not Miami's pinned on their 1, possibly a safety which is only one point less than a FG, plus we get the ball back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mannc Posted October 27, 2008 Author Share Posted October 27, 2008 Jauron takes the odds EVERY TIME. An up for grabs lob to our WR is not a high percentage play on fourth day. In any situation, Jauron takes the odds. In the first quarter, on your first drive, you take the points. If you're looking for a coach who makes ballsy calls, you've got to find a new team to root for. My point is, kicking the field goal is not taking the odds. You have (or should have) a better than 3 in 7 chance of scoring a TD from the 1. And if you don't make it, the other team starts on their own half yard line. Timid is not necessarily smart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KD in CA Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 Anyone else have a problem with DJ kicking a field goal on 4th and goal at the 1 yard line on the first drive of the game? No, that was the right call. But I did have a problem with 3 straight runs prior to that when a) Lynch wasn't in the game and b) the Bills had the Felon's pass D on their heels that entire drive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddogblitz Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 Absolutely the correct call in that situation. I too would have liked to have seen them try something different on of those plays, like a roll out or naked boot or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjohns85 Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 why was lynch on the bench when we were first and goal on the 5? that is poor coaching Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Anderson's Lunch Pail Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 First, if you can't score from there, you really don't deserve to win anyway. I HATE that argument. It doesn't make sense. Coaches work all week on a game plan. They believed that what they put together would be sufficient to make enough stops on the Dolphins offense, despite their opening drive TD. And Jauron was right. That would have been the right call if we didn't fall apart in the fourth quarter. I would've liked to see Marshawn run it off left tackle on fourth and 1, but the coaches devise a game plan for a reason. Taking the sure thing there was part of their plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDO'Kearney Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 Anyone else have a problem with DJ kicking a field goal on 4th and goal at the 1 yard line on the first drive of the game? I have a major problem with it. First, if you can't score from there, you really don't deserve to win anyway. This was not exactly the Steel Curtain we were facing. Second, the failure to go for it there (especially on the road, and especially after the Dolphins marched the length of the field for a TD on their first possession) sends a negative message to your team: "We don't have much confidence in you. We're just trying not to lose here." That seems to be a typical Bills mind-set these past 15 years or so. One thing that I have always admired about Belichick's and Parcells's teams is that they almost always go for it one fourth and short in the other team's end of the field (especially on fourth and goal from inside the 3 yard line), and they almost always succeed. By contrast, the Bills (and most other losing franchises that are more worried about being second-guessed) seldom do. Finally, even if you go for it and don't make it, the other team has to go 99 yards; there is a very good chance you will get the ball back inside mid-field. Oh yeah, and didn't we draft a wide receiver in the second round with the expressed purpose of having him haul in short passes in the red zone in situations like that (not to mention on second or third down)? I didn't really have a problem with it either. There's a good point to be made on both sides of that argument. My gut said go for it, but with 5 min left in the 1st quarter I gotta believe you take the points too. Plus, probably DJ figured why give the Dolphins and the crowd a reason to get fired up if they don't make it. DJ doesn't have his team go through the emotional highs and lows of going for broke and hitting or missing on their chance, but they DO usually apply a steady forceful pressure all game that keeps them in it and gives them a chance at the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrFishfinder Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 No, that was the right call. But I did have a problem with 3 straight runs prior to that when a) Lynch wasn't in the game and b) the Bills had the Felon's pass D on their heels that entire drive. Especially running up the gut every time. How about a pitch out or at least SOMETHING/ANYTHING different? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDO'Kearney Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 why was lynch on the bench when we were first and goal on the 5? that is poor coaching Maybe he couldn't find his helmet..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Fong Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 While I didn't agree with the call it didn't end up costing them the game. I think it's more like a symptom of that "safe" thinking that I think holds back the Bills from reaching their true potential. We haven't seen much of that safe thinking this year and the team just seemed to play looser and take more chances out there. What happened to the balls on special team after the Seattle game? Following that game teams would have thought they'd have to be prepared for ANYTHING. Lately not so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKOOBY Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 On the road, you take the points. We we're able to go ahead on 2 drives because of those 3 points being there. That being said, I still believe that FG's are crutches that weak teams use to keep it close & our red zone production has left something to be desired the past so many weeks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mannc Posted October 27, 2008 Author Share Posted October 27, 2008 On the road, you take the points. We we're able to go ahead on 2 drives because of those 3 points being there. That being said, I still believe that FG's are crutches that weak teams use to keep it close & our red zone production has left something to be desired the past so many weeks. On the other hand, if we went for it and scored, the game would have been tied in the fourth quarter, before the safety was surrendered, and we would have trailed by less than one score late in the fourth, instead of needing a TD and an on-side kick. And, of course, if we went for it and failed, the Dolphins would have begun their drive from their own half-yard line, which could have resulted in the Bills getting a safety or excellent field position on the next possession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leh-nerd skin-erd Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 On the other hand, if we went for it and scored, the game would have been tied in the fourth quarter, before the safety was surrendered, and we would have trailed by less than one score late in the fourth, instead of needing a TD and an on-side kick. And, of course, if we went for it and failed, the Dolphins would have begun their drive from their own half-yard line, which could have resulted in the Bills getting a safety or excellent field position on the next possession. that's a lot of 'if's' in a game decided by the crazy bounces of the ball....that we would have held them and/or gotten a safety, and/or we would have gotten points off of said field position, and/or the the game would have played out exaclty the same way thereafter.... i have enough problem trying to get my arms around the crappy sh6t that actually did happen, so it must be tough being in your head. i agree that we should have tried somethig other than that which didn't work three times in a row, and with lynch being on the field. still----still, if we disagree with the play calling, if we disagree with who was on the field---we start the 3rd quarter with a very nice drive and go up by 9. with our fourth quarter play thus far this year, and noting only 1 drive for a touchdown up to that point for miami---you gotta feel good about your chances. fate is a fickle mistress... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDawkinstein Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 any coach, ANY COACH, who doesnt take the points on the opening drive of a hard fought divisional game, will probably end up canned at year's end. i hate kicking field goals. hate it. but in that situation, that early in the game, you take the 3. i DO agree with running it 3 times. if this was 5 years ago, we'd all be screaming about "Why doesnt Mularky just line his guys up and pound the rock 3 times?!?! why roll out and risk taking a sack?!?! Run 3 times and if we dont get it, take the 3!!!" we just needed better execution from our players. Miami wanted this game more. maybe the problem is with all the youngin's on the team, they dont realize how big of a rivalry this is... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RkFast Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 Early in the game, on the road, take the points. Put me in that column, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miyagi-Do Karate Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 You have a problem with that? I have three problems with that. 1. Trent drove us all the way down there, and then they run three straight plays with Fred. Should've been Marshawn. Trainers were looking at Lynch's knee. I think you take the points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PTS Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 Early in the game against a team you should beat, you take the points and by points I mean seven of them and not three. I agree with the poster, it sent the wrong signals to the team and I made a point of this in the GDT when it happened. I just didn't like the play when it happened. Worst case scenario, Miami starts on their 1/2 yard line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mravenger Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 They did go to Hardy once in (or near) the red zone on that drive. I had a bigger problem with them using Jackson on every down instead of Lynch. i had a big problem with not having Lynch in, he knows how to get in the end zone period. Give him the ball with the end zone in front of him and so far it has been a sure thing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaGimp Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 It's obvious that in this situation you should have Travis Henry throw for a Touchdown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 Jauron says in his press conference today that Lynch was "dinged up" at the time. So he was not an option, at the time. That's why Jackson was in the game, nothing more nothing less. The question I have is why not try one fade to Evans or Hardy? Evans did a great job pulling in the pass last week. Hardy is the tall guy. Why not give one of them at least one shot out of those 3 plays? I don't have a problem with the FG. At the time, 1st quarter, there's all the time in the world. Take the easy points and regroup. Most coaches will take the 3pts at that point in the game, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MRW Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 It's been asked before but I'll ask it again - where is the play action? Miami had just scorched us with it on their opening drive. Why was that not considered on second or third down instead of plowing into the line again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mannc Posted October 27, 2008 Author Share Posted October 27, 2008 I don't have a problem with the FG. At the time, 1st quarter, there's all the time in the world. Take the easy points and regroup. Most coaches will take the 3pts at that point in the game, IMO. I agree that most NFL coaches would take the 3 points in that situation, but that doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. Two of the most successful coaches in the business (Belichick and Parcells) have made it their trademark to go for 7 in that situation (as well refusing to punt on fourth and less than 3 from inside the opponents' territory) And, from a statistical standpoint, it makes no sense to settle for 3 because the odds are far better than 3 out of 7 that the offense will score a TD from there. (Gregg Easterbrook writes about this a lot in his Tuesday Morning QB column.) Also, what the hell is wrong with playing with a little swagger for once? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonawanda Troy Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 We have the most conservative HC in the game. I say bang Lynch off tackle and let him leap for it!! You can't go far in the post season with out showing a little Sac! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 I agree that most NFL coaches would take the 3 points in that situation, but that doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. Two of the most successful coaches in the business (Belichick and Parcells) have made it their trademark to go for 7 in that situation (as well refusing to punt on fourth and less than 3 from inside the opponents' territory) And, from a statistical standpoint, it makes no sense to settle for 3 because the odds are far better than 3 out of 7 that the offense will score a TD from there. (Gregg Easterbrook writes about this a lot in his Tuesday Morning QB column.) Also, what the hell is wrong with playing with a little swagger for once? If we had the Dallas or the Pats* Offensive line, I would agree and think it a good shot of success. But, we had 3 shots, we gained 0 yards. If it were a little later in the game - say 3rd quarter; absolutely get the tie. But, with the entire game left to play, there were still plenty of scoring chances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MRW Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 If we had the Dallas or the Pats* Offensive line, I would agree and think it a good shot of success. But, we had 3 shots, we gained 0 yards. If it were a little later in the game - say 3rd quarter; absolutely get the tie. But, with the entire game left to play, there were still plenty of scoring chances. Well, technically, we gained 4 yards, didn't we? I would've liked to have seen them mix it up on 3rd down, play action or roll out, with the expectation we'd go for it on 4th. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 Well, technically, we gained 4 yards, didn't we? I would've liked to have seen them mix it up on 3rd down, play action or roll out, with the expectation we'd go for it on 4th. Yeah 4 yards, 0 yards - just details that disprove my argument. Can we forget them? I can live with that idea. Given the play call on the previous 3 plays however, we had little options that could surprise them. I agree, though, I was really hoping the 3rd down play was a PA fade to Hardy. If they had tried something like that on 2nd and or 3rd downs then a 4th down play seems a little less predictable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
todd Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 No problem at all. I like points. People point to lack of confidence, but to me confidence is knowing that you will get there again and score. Anyone else have a problem with DJ kicking a field goal on 4th and goal at the 1 yard line on the first drive of the game? I have a major problem with it. First, if you can't score from there, you really don't deserve to win anyway. This was not exactly the Steel Curtain we were facing. Second, the failure to go for it there (especially on the road, and especially after the Dolphins marched the length of the field for a TD on their first possession) sends a negative message to your team: "We don't have much confidence in you. We're just trying not to lose here." That seems to be a typical Bills mind-set these past 15 years or so. One thing that I have always admired about Belichick's and Parcells's teams is that they almost always go for it one fourth and short in the other team's end of the field (especially on fourth and goal from inside the 3 yard line), and they almost always succeed. By contrast, the Bills (and most other losing franchises that are more worried about being second-guessed) seldom do. Finally, even if you go for it and don't make it, the other team has to go 99 yards; there is a very good chance you will get the ball back inside mid-field. Oh yeah, and didn't we draft a wide receiver in the second round with the expressed purpose of having him haul in short passes in the red zone in situations like that (not to mention on second or third down)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
todd Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 why was lynch on the bench when we were first and goal on the 5? that is poor coaching No. He was being checked out for a concussion. That is GOOD coaching. Anyone who think DJ is a bad coach .... well, I'll just leave it at that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bills_fan_in_raleigh Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 why was lynch on the bench when we were first and goal on the 5? that is poor coaching because he tweaked his freaking knee earlier and was having it looked at on the sideline. Get a grip folks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MRW Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 Yeah 4 yards, 0 yards - just details that disprove my argument. Can we forget them? I can live with that idea. Given the play call on the previous 3 plays however, we had little options that could surprise them. I agree, though, I was really hoping the 3rd down play was a PA fade to Hardy. If they had tried something like that on 2nd and or 3rd downs then a 4th down play seems a little less predictable. Agreed. 3 straight runs is really not setting yourself up for a successful 4th down play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 why was lynch on the bench when we were first and goal on the 5? that is poor coaching Marshawn was dinged up. It wasn't a coaching decision. Even so, with our O-line 1 yard is no gimme. PTR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffOrange Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 Anyone else have a problem with DJ kicking a field goal on 4th and goal at the 1 yard line on the first drive of the game? I have a major problem with it. First, if you can't score from there, you really don't deserve to win anyway. This was not exactly the Steel Curtain we were facing. Second, the failure to go for it there (especially on the road, and especially after the Dolphins marched the length of the field for a TD on their first possession) sends a negative message to your team: "We don't have much confidence in you. We're just trying not to lose here." That seems to be a typical Bills mind-set these past 15 years or so. One thing that I have always admired about Belichick's and Parcells's teams is that they almost always go for it one fourth and short in the other team's end of the field (especially on fourth and goal from inside the 3 yard line), and they almost always succeed. By contrast, the Bills (and most other losing franchises that are more worried about being second-guessed) seldom do. Finally, even if you go for it and don't make it, the other team has to go 99 yards; there is a very good chance you will get the ball back inside mid-field. Oh yeah, and didn't we draft a wide receiver in the second round with the expressed purpose of having him haul in short passes in the red zone in situations like that (not to mention on second or third down)? I don't buy the "get a yard or you deserve to lose" logic, but I definitely would've went for it because of the bolded part. And you're right - when you kick the FG a relatively few % of fans/media blame the coach. When you go for it and miss, it's always the coach's fault - see opening day game @NE a couple years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffOrange Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 My point is, kicking the field goal is not taking the odds. You have (or should have) a better than 3 in 7 chance of scoring a TD from the 1. And if you don't make it, the other team starts on their own half yard line. Timid is not necessarily smart. Best post of the thread. It's not "safe" to double down on 11 vs. 10, but that doesn't mean you're correctly "playing the odds" if you don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leh-nerd skin-erd Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 Best post of the thread. It's not "safe" to double down on 11 vs. 10, but that doesn't mean you're correctly "playing the odds" if you don't. i gotta disagree here. statistics are a funny thing. 3 out of 7 is hardly easy money, and when you factor in we had three shots just prior to the 4th and goal, i suppose you could figure the next one was the gimme? or, you'd have to re-calculate the odds of not converting on 3 out of 3 successive plays. factor in what we now know--those of us wondering where marshawn was, well, it turns out the coaching staff might have liked him in there too, but he was unable to answer the bell. if you factor in the odds of attempting to convert your 4th opportunity at 4th and 1 with your feature short yardage back on the bench with a potential concussion, the odds must be---well, i have no idea. 2 out of 7, if no one's going to check. that said---we still possessed a 9 point lead well into the third, and handled the ball like it was dipped in ebola the entire 4th quarter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Special K Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 Marshawn was dinged up. It wasn't a coaching decision. Even so, with our O-line 1 yard is no gimme. PTR I know that Lynch was unable to be in there at the time, but doesn't that make it all the more puzzling that they would run the ball three straght times? This is the point that bothers me the most. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San-O Posted October 29, 2008 Share Posted October 29, 2008 Anyone else have a problem with DJ kicking a field goal on 4th and goal at the 1 yard line on the first drive of the game? I have a major problem with it. First, if you can't score from there, you really don't deserve to win anyway. This was not exactly the Steel Curtain we were facing. Second, the failure to go for it there (especially on the road, and especially after the Dolphins marched the length of the field for a TD on their first possession) sends a negative message to your team: "We don't have much confidence in you. We're just trying not to lose here." That seems to be a typical Bills mind-set these past 15 years or so. One thing that I have always admired about Belichick's and Parcells's teams is that they almost always go for it one fourth and short in the other team's end of the field (especially on fourth and goal from inside the 3 yard line), and they almost always succeed. By contrast, the Bills (and most other losing franchises that are more worried about being second-guessed) seldom do. Finally, even if you go for it and don't make it, the other team has to go 99 yards; there is a very good chance you will get the ball back inside mid-field. Oh yeah, and didn't we draft a wide receiver in the second round with the expressed purpose of having him haul in short passes in the red zone in situations like that (not to mention on second or third down)? I also felt that was a bad move, but that's what DJ is going to do. Buffalo can't run the ball, and apparenty the coaching staff is aware of this. If you can't get 1 yard, with the biggest O-line in the league, you need some other horses. Period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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