Gonzalez Report

[BuffaloRebound]

No, the real problem in your suggestion is that the Chiefs already have a JP Losman on their team in Brodie Croyle. Losman has absolutely positively no value to the Kansas City Chiefs. And this isn't Madden where you can just plug in a QB and see what he does. He has to learn a brand new offense on the fly. I'm not a Losman hater, but he's not exactly Favre winging it with the Jets.

 

Could not agree more. Losman has zero trade value at this point. The problem with Losman, like many other QB's like Carr, Boller, Grossman, is that he has talent and experience but five years into his career is still a developmental QB. Most teams already have a guy like that on their roster and don't want another team's throw-aways. I think he might have trouble finding work next year unless teams are convinced he's alright battling for a #2 job. Otherwise, he'll get the Culpepper treatment.

[Flutie Flakes]

I would give a 3rd and 7th for him. Even at his age, we would still get great value in return for the aforementioned picks based upon his leadership and playmaking abilities. However, TG probably will have some input in where he goes. KC's management and he have had a great relationship. I think the Giants are the front runners at this point based upon their super bowl win last year and their numbers this year. They also have several picks to play with. I see him going to the Giants. If they can't get the deal done, I think we have a very good shot at picking him up as the other contenders are certainly "pretenders".

[truth on hold]

I bet the NY Giants would love TG.

 

Keep your eyes open on that deal.

Why would Giants be interested? Boss has filled in beautifully for Shockey, with many saying he's better.

[elegantelliotoffen]

What's Gonzo's contract like?

[Flutie Flakes]

Why would Giants be interested? Boss has filled in beautifully for Shockey, with many saying he's better.

 

Why are they interested? Boss was a 5th round pick in 2007 who could benefit from the leadership and mentoring of TG. Other than lack of experience, Boss has solid intangibles (I wish we had picked this guy up but Buffalo had traded that pick away and in the round prior, got Wright). But if the Gints could pick up TG for the right price, he would provide another veteran target for Eli.

[BillsGuyInMalta]

I'd give up a 2nd rounder in a heartbeat for Gonzo. If all of the other clubs are throwing chump change around, its time for the Bills to throw down a big offer and land this guy.

[The Dean]

I agree completely...Hamdan is clearly a smarter quarterback. Look at his history...he's a team player who clearly can suffice as a number 2 a la Frank Reich

 

NFL History, of course, right? Played in one game, and threw two passes, completed one. Some history. Listen, if you despise JP that's one thing, but why make stuff up that shows your ignorance? I like Hamdan, too, but none of us has seen him play in a legit NFL game. Basically, he has ZERO history, other than playing for four NFL teams and virtually never seeing the field. So, that demonstrates that he is smart? I guess to you, it might.

 

 

No, the real problem in your suggestion is that the Chiefs already have a JP Losman on their team in Brodie Croyle. Losman has absolutely positively no value to the Kansas City Chiefs. And this isn't Madden where you can just plug in a QB and see what he does. He has to learn a brand new offense on the fly. I'm not a Losman hater, but he's not exactly Favre winging it with the Jets.

 

 

Even the Jets wanted Favre ASAP during the Spring, as they knew even he would need to learn the offense, despite having played in the NFL since the helmets were leather. Apparently he is still learning the offense. So, I agree, JP would not be of much use to KC this year, and they can make a play to get him next year, without sacrificing a player, should they so choose.

 

 

Might as well just give them the 1st they want and be done with it. Given our history and relative success of 1st and 3rd rounders, it would probably end up costing us less.

 

You must be one hell of a negotiator. As much as I hated Sales, I would love to have sold stuff to you.

[Matt in KC]

Good discussion so far. I have just a couple thoughts to add:

 

Regarding the discrepancy between "the Chiefs are looking for a first round pick and change," and the report that they are holding out for a 3rd round pick. This smacks of the gameTelephone, going something like this:

 

A: The Chiefs want a 3rd round pick

B: Really? Do you think they'd really part with him for that?

A: Sure, it's a first day pick (no longer true) and they're looking for change.

---

C: What did you hear about Gonzales?

B: They looking for a first round pick and change...

 

 

I do think the Chiefs might see some value in being able to negotiate a new contract with Losman now before he hits the open market. I also think that Losman would be receptive to a low starter-money contract and a shot at leading the Chiefs.

 

I see Trent's current health as the issue with any trade including Losman. If we may need JP to start against SD, I'd say there's no way the Bills would let him go. If they know Trent has been fine since mid-week and will practice next week and likely start, it may seem a reasonable risk to them to let Losman go to get Gonzales.

 

Having a reliable receiving TE as an outlet, one the D has to respect, should minimize the blitzes and help Trent get gid of the ball.

 

Personally, I think it's foolish to get rid of Losman when our record is 4-1 and Trent is already hurt, but if they are down on Losman, or feel they have to change the offense more to accommodate him tham Hamden, it's a no-brainer to try o get some value for him.

[VOR]

I'm sure they were looking for a 1st rounder initially, and then saw what the Giants were offering and changed it to a first day pick. Soon it will be a 3rd rounder.

[The Dean]

I'm sure they were looking for a 1st rounder initially, and then saw what the Giants were offering and changed it to a first day pick. Soon it will be a 3rd rounder.

 

 

Agreed. Maybe 3rd and change, or 3rd/conditional 2nd based on performance. Or, maybe KC will simply not trade him, if those deals aren't good enough

[Lori]

If Bill Polian was still at One Bills Drive, I'm thinking he'd make this move.

 

I love the idea, but I'm not sure if it fits into the current administration's plans ...

[Tsaikotic]

Did you really spell sabres wrong?

 

did I?...oh boy I did...DOH!!!...ok no more doing sig at 4 am

[KD in CA]

He's definitely worth a 3d and maybe a 2d. Don't forget that the Bills very likely will be picking ten spots later than they have in recent drafts.

 

Gonzo could significantly alter the strength of the Bills offense.

[VOR]

If Bill Polian was still at One Bills Drive, I'm thinking he'd make this move.

 

I love the idea, but I'm not sure if it fits into the current administration's plans ...

I don't know about that. Apparently there's interest on the Bills' part, which is a start. And they did trade a 3rd and 5th for Stroud who isn't a spring chicken but still has a couple years left.

[Tcali]

I know there are people talking about the Gonzalez to Buffalo angle. Chris Brown has it on his blog that there is an unconfirmed story from ESPNews that Buffalo is interested in Tony Gonzalez. However...

 

The report says Chiefs CEO King Carl (Peterson) wants a first and change. That's too high, and I'd be surprised to see KC get any more than a second. Gonzalez has some tread left on him, but a first is probably the initial offer, which is never accepted. TG has made it known he'd like to get out while the Chiefs undergo complete rebuild.

 

The trade deadline is 10/14, and Chris Chambers went for a second last year. My gut tells me Buffalo does not consider Gonzalez for more than a third. His pay is manageable for 08 and 09, but there's some guaranteed money there as well.

 

Then again, this is a must-win year for the Bills and there is no quality TE on the roster. You've got an H-Back type in Schouman and an injured rookie in Fine being the backups to the disappointing Royal.

1st and change.....yeah thats a good move for our future

[Tcali]

Could not agree more. Losman has zero trade value at this point. The problem with Losman, like many other QB's like Carr, Boller, Grossman, is that he has talent and experience but five years into his career is still a developmental QB. Most teams already have a guy like that on their roster and don't want another team's throw-aways. I think he might have trouble finding work next year unless teams are convinced he's alright battling for a #2 job. Otherwise, he'll get the Culpepper treatment.

Well maybe someone is stupid enough to trade for him. Don't underestimate the intelligence of some GMs in this league. Look how long Bledsoe hung around.......and RJ;)

[BillsVet]

1st and change.....yeah thats a good move for our future

 

First reports are always incorrect. I have to believe that a third and lower pick is more realistic.

 

I also agree Lori, Trader Bill may have gone through with this deal, but the current people at OBD seem intent on maintaining a core of young players. Of course, they went against that wisdom by filling a huge void at DT with Stroud.

 

I daresay right now that tight end is as big a problem as DT was last season. Some are OK with Royal, but based on the QB, a pass catcher at TE would instantly make the entire offense better.

[aristocrat]

whats also missing here is the fact that gonzo is a physical freak...lookin at his stats you'll see that he has missed two games in his entire NFL career. also him being under contract for 3 more years gives the bills room to trade him to another contender should he become unsatisifed with the situation here. this would be an unreal deal if the bills could pull it off. i just dont see it happening cause i see the eagles pulling this off to finally give mcnabb some real help

[Guest dog14787]

If Bill Polian was still at One Bills Drive, I'm thinking he'd make this move.

 

I love the idea, but I'm not sure if it fits into the current administration's plans ...

 

Yup, Bill Polian gets it done.

 

Seems like anything that will help keep TE off the carpet and help our offense should be highly considered right about now, besides TE needs a TE.

[The Dean]

Well maybe someone is stupid enough to trade for him. Don't underestimate the intelligence of some GMs in this league. Look how long Bledsoe hung around.......and RJ;)

 

 

I think you have the situations all mixed up. JP will be in the NFL next year, and you can bet your house on that. The reasons nobody will give anything for JP NOW are it is midseason, and a new QB can rarely help a team after missing all of camp and the preseason. PLUS, JP is a UFA at the end of the season, so they would be trading for a commodity that isn't worth much, this year, and that they don't own after this year. It simply makes no sense.

 

Neither RJ nor Bledsoe were acquired, mid season, only to be a UFA at the end of the year.

[IDBillzFan]

If Bill Polian was still at One Bills Drive, I'm thinking he'd make this move.

 

I love the idea, but I'm not sure if it fits into the current administration's plans ...

Not to mention, if the Giants are really interested, and Gonzalez really wants to go to a competitive team, he'd probably take less money to play with SB-defending Giants (who are playing some terrific ball this year) than he would ever play for a team that has (to date) no consistency at the QB position and is, at best, a couple of years away from really making a move.

[Lori]

I don't know about that. Apparently there's interest on the Bills' part, which is a start. And they did trade a 3rd and 5th for Stroud who isn't a spring chicken but still has a couple years left.

 

Different needs, perhaps. The Bills admitted they needed an offseason upgrade at DT, but they've publicly made noises about being happy with their TE corps.

 

Of course, most of us strongly disagree with that assessment.

 

I will note that the number 88 jersey is not currently in use, and I'd have no problem with them finding a way to fill it ... especially with one of the game's all-time great tight ends. If the Chiefs are only asking for a third-round pick for a guy who's still better than Jeremy Shockey ever dreamed of being? That's a deal I make every time.

 

Some additional fuel for the fire, courtesy of the KC Star:

Posnanski: Hard to see how Tony can come back now

Whitlock: Trading Gonzalez to contender would be right thing, but price may not be right

[The Dean]

Not to mention, if the Giants are really interested, and Gonzalez really wants to go to a competitive team, he'd probably take less money to play with SB-defending Giants (who are playing some terrific ball this year) than he would ever play for a team that has (to date) no consistency at the QB position and is, at best, a couple of years away from really making a move.

 

 

TG is already signed to a (reasonable) contract. He won't have to take less anywhere he goes.

 

The question is will KC take less to trade him to the Giants. Unlike dealing with a FA, this isn't about where TG wants to go, IMO. It's KC's deal to make.

[Lori]

TG is already signed to a (reasonable) contract. He won't have to take less anywhere he goes.

 

The question is will KC take less to trade him to the Giants. Unlike dealing with a FA, this isn't about where TG wants to go, IMO. It's KC's deal to make.

 

True, but I think Peterson has so much respect for Gonzalez that if the numbers were close, he'd take TG's opinion into consideration. On the other hand, if it's a six from the Giants or a three from the Bills, this is still a business decision.

 

And this is all very much hypothetical, of course ... but damn, it's fun to think about No. 88 pulling on a Bills jersey.

[The Dean]

True, but I think Peterson has so much respect for Gonzalez that if the numbers were close, he'd take TG's opinion into consideration. On the other hand, if it's a six from the Giants or a three from the Bills, this is still a business decision.

 

And this is all very much hypothetical, of course ... but damn, it's fun to think about No. 88 pulling on a Bills jersey.

 

 

They might acquiesce to Tony if the deals were very close, but TG wouldn't be taking any less to play with the Giants. His pay likely remains the same.

 

And, while I agree this isn't the kind of deal these Bills normally make, the fact that they are being mentioned as a team of interest encourages me.

 

Yes, Lo, this is very fun to think about.

[IDBillzFan]

TG is already signed to a (reasonable) contract. He won't have to take less anywhere he goes.

 

The question is will KC take less to trade him to the Giants. Unlike dealing with a FA, this isn't about where TG wants to go, IMO. It's KC's deal to make.

Okay, let me modify my comment: If it were up to TG, he'd take less money to go to the Giants before he'd take more money to come to Buffalo. The Giants will compete. We don't know where we stand with our QB situation. Losman isn't the answer and is gone after this season, and unless I hear otherwise, Edwards still thinks he's Batman.

[The Dean]

Okay, let me modify my comment: If it were up to TG, he'd take less money to go to the Giants before he'd take more money to come to Buffalo.

 

 

No doubt. The beauty of the situation is, this is one of the times that the Bills don't really have to compete on an uneven playing field for a player they want (assuming they want Tony). If he were a UFA the chances of the Bills getting TG would be slim. In a trade with KC, though, they are significantly enhanced.

[IDBillzFan]

No doubt. The beauty of the situation is, this is one of the times that the Bills don't really have to compete on an uneven playing field for a player they want (assuming they want Tony). If he were a UFA the chances of the Bills getting TG would be slim. In a trade with KC, though, they are significantly enhanced.

Absolutely, except that KC would probably prefer he gets sent out of the AFC.

[The Dean]

Absolutely, except that KC would probably prefer he gets sent out of the AFC.

 

 

Yes, if the deals are close, you might be right. But, as the Bills are in the East, KC isn't close to being competitive and TG doesn't likely have many good years left, I don't think it would be a major issue.

 

I think this is a deal the Bills CAN win, if they want to, and not overpay in terms of draft choices given. The Bills have a much greater need at TE than the Giants, so I think TG is worth a little more to the Bills than to NYG.

[Guest dog14787]

Yes, if the deals are close, you might be right. But, as the Bills are in the East, KC isn't close to being competitive and TG doesn't likely have many good years left, I don't think it would be a major issue.

 

I think this is a deal the Bills CAN win, if they want to, and not overpay in terms of draft choices given. The Bills have a much greater need at TE than the Giants, so I think TG is worth a little more to the Bills than to NYG.

 

I agree, a move like picking up Gonzalez could be the move that puts us over the top.

[Frez]

Absolutely, except that KC would probably prefer he gets sent out of the AFC.

 

 

He's 32 and it's not like the Chiefs will be competitive next year or maybe even the year after. I don't think they really care.

[John Adams]

True, but I think Peterson has so much respect for Gonzalez that if the numbers were close, he'd take TG's opinion into consideration. On the other hand, if it's a six from the Giants or a three from the Bills, this is still a business decision.

 

And this is all very much hypothetical, of course ... but damn, it's fun to think about No. 88 pulling on a Bills jersey.

 

Trent is the perfect QB for a tight end too. He loves the short to medium pass and hits the middle of the field well. Tony G. would get a lot of looks here.

 

Agree with Dean (stabs needles in eyes for doing so): The G-Men seem like the most likely landing place. Outside shot at the Pack.

 

Eagles and Tampa don't make sense. The Eagles won't make the playoffs and Tampa has questions at QB.

 

Unless the Bills sweeten the pot, I call Giants.

[The Dean]

Agree with Dean (stabs needles in eyes for doing so):

 

 

Now you have me rethinking my position.

 

[Pyrite Gal]

Unfortunately (since I would love to have a talent and the potential leadership of Gonzalez) this move MIGHT (and this is a hypertheoretical might) have been something the Bills would have hopped right on the off-season or (or maybe they should have before the bye week) but in the over-systematized NFL we live in today, this trade may be more than Schonert can digest and make changes without a lot of experimentation. We should not live in the illusion that this trade would be simply as simple as you just plug in a more talented TE into the line-up and just play in order to get true value from this trade.

 

For example:

 

1. Is it all so simple that Gonzales just runs routes designed for the skills (and mostly the limitations) of Royal and Schouman and just go?

 

I do not think so. How long would it take for the Bills coaches to revamp the offense to design routes that make use of Gonzales superior skills as a long pass route runner and then how long would it take for the players to learn this new implementation of the system. These guys are skilled professionals so not long actually, but at mid season where every game can be crucial, the two to three weeks needed to get the implementation changes up to an adequate level might prove critical.

 

2. Is Gonzales perfect in every way and able to learn new use of him immediately?

 

No. What person is perfect. Gonzales is a great player and far better than anything the Bills have had at TE in quite awhile. This being said his superior route running and pass catching skills make it easy to accept the fact he is not equally outstanding as a blocker. I think he is a good blocker (if he was not he would not be a superstar), but in many ways it is a waste of his superior pass catching ability to merely utilize him as a blocker. One does not make this sacrifice utilizing Royal's very good OL quality blocking ability. There is an argument to be made that with Gonzales at least for awhile our running game will suffer as we choose to go with 5 OL players and a pass catcher rather than 6 OL players with the Royal set. I am not saying that this team is better with Royal rather than with Gonzales. i am simply saying it is different and design and implementation with these differences cannot simply be assumed to work perfectly or even well without some time and work.

 

3. What is the chemistry going to be for this team?

 

One can guess fairly well because nothing succeeds like success and if this team is winning any problems are either overlooked or easily dealt with. However, the Bills family has been working all pre-season and regular season to achieve a balance of the team having leaders (Whitner for example has become a public leader though Kelsay as team captain has also assumed (and it is to be hoped earned as the coaches essentially chose this position) a leadership role on the D. How will Gonzales work into the O (particularly with the uncertainty the QB issues have created) and again these guys are professionals so they should make it work. However, these guys are humans as well and the outcome will not be like falling off a log and cannot be assumed.

 

I can see a reasonable judgment being made by someone who knows this team from the inside and controls the O (like Schonert or Jauron) making a true judgment that even though Gonzalez is a great player that adding this part and this time may not produce the best results from the whole.

 

We will see.

[BADOLBILZ]

While I wouldn't give away the farm for him, a 3rd and a 6th (or even 5th) would be a no-brainer, IMO.

 

Gonz is clearly past his prime, but as most note, is a big step up from what the Bills currently have. More importantly, IMO, is that if the Bills acquire Gonzalez (I understand that isn't likely), they might actually start to use the tight end more in the offense. THAT would be the biggest improvement, IMO. I would settle for them using Royal more, if this doesn't happen.

 

The Bills haven't had a very good tight end since Metzelaars. The best was Riemersma, who was really no better than an average starter due to the dropsies and his creaky body. I'll make this prediction however, if the Bills acquire Gonzalez, they will find another very good one in the draft or free agency very soon as well. Beyond the fact that the pressure would be off of the personnel dept., the Bills are due to find their version of Dallas Clark. Get Gonzalez.

[The Dean]

The Bills haven't had a very good tight end since Metzelaars. The best was Riemersma, who was really no better than an average starter due to the dropsies and his creaky body. I'll make this prediction however, if the Bills acquire Gonzalez, they will find another very good one in the draft or free agency very soon as well. Beyond the fact that the pressure would be off of the personnel dept., the Bills are due to find their version of Dallas Clark. Get Gonzalez.

 

 

I totally agree. And the new rumor (TG to the Bills for a 3rd) sounds like a very good deal for the Bills, IMO. (And not so bad for KC, either.)

[Tcali]

I think you have the situations all mixed up. JP will be in the NFL next year, and you can bet your house on that. The reasons nobody will give anything for JP NOW are it is midseason, and a new QB can rarely help a team after missing all of camp and the preseason. PLUS, JP is a UFA at the end of the season, so they would be trading for a commodity that isn't worth much, this year, and that they don't own after this year. It simply makes no sense.

 

Neither RJ nor Bledsoe were acquired, mid season, only to be a UFA at the end of the year.

 

Like I said...someone may be stupid enough to trade for him. I'd gladly accept a 1st from st louis:)

RJ not being acquired in midseason doesn't make his acquisition any less stupid.

And Bledsoe---I think the grandest stupidity was parcells still believing in him enough to drag him to Dallas(---the point being someone wanted him).

[MattF2000]

KC would probably rather trade him to the bills, even if the draft picks were equal. I'm sure KC probably thinks the Giants, who are undefeated, will finish better than the Bills. This would mean a draft pick (even if theyre from the same round) from the giants is less valuable than a draft pick from the bills. However, KC may want TG out of the AFC. I don't see this as big a deal though considering in two or three years TG will probably be retired and KC won't be competitive until then.

[ganesh]

Well, I understand the audition part, although having missed all of their workouts, training camp and preseason, I doubt they would get much to look at, as it is unlikely they would play him much, IMO.

 

But, why would they have "exclusive rights" to JP at the end of the year? Isn't he a UFA?

 

Also, as you note, for the Bills to do this is very risky. You trade for Tony G to put yourself over the top, and ditch your #2 QB in the process. Doesn't add up, for me. Not saying they wouldn't do it, though.

 

When I really meant Exclusive, I was not talking in NFL Parlay.....If JP does well in KC, it is in his best interest to continue with that starting job and negotiate a long term FA contract. Why would JP want to sign a contact with another team possibly to compete for a starting job when he has a starting job....That is what I meant by exclusive....Of course if you want to go the NFL technical way, they could also tag him with the Franchise Tag or Transition tag if necessary, if JPs play turns to be outstanding.

 

Anyways, as I mentioned in the next message, it is probably a moot point that JP is going anywhere from Buffalo until the end of the season.

[HurlyBurly51]

Absolutely, except that KC would probably prefer he gets sent out of the AFC.

 

Normally, yes. But as others have mentioned, with TG only having a few years left, and KC's current competitive position, I don't think it's a major factor. Best offer should rule the day.

 

I think Ralph Wilson may be tight with some of the decision makers in the KC front office, due to his old ties with Hunt. I know, stretch, but could play a small factor in a willingness to make a deal with the Bills.