Bills don't "need" a WR, they need to use the ones they have better

[Jukester]

Absolutely agree with you @Big Turk.  I’ve felt this way for a long time.  Last year: barely threw to MVS, went and got Cooper and used sparingly. This year - barely throw to Samuel or Moore, before injury Palmer was getting minimal targets. Coleman isn’t in the right role outside. Move him to inside quick hitters and use his RAC ability. I don’t want to hear the “lack of separation argument” any more. All 22’s show some separation at times but  coaching isn’t putting these guys in the right spots to get even more separation. 

[Big Turk]

1 minute ago, Don Otreply said:

They certainly aren’t optimizing the available talent in the passing game, should they improve in this category the offense will take a step up,

 

Which should terrify the NFL since they are the #1 offense already

[Bob Chandler's Hands]

In regard to the downfield passing game, I know he's not a WR but we need to see Kinkaid's snap count % move from about 50% to more like 75%. He's an under utilized weapon. 

[HOUSE]

The WR Choo Choo says otherwise 

[HappyDays]

1 minute ago, Big Turk said:

 

Then get him in more stacked/bunch formations or have him in motion at the snap...eliminates that problem immediately. 

 

Sure get him some targets out of the slot, just understand we're not talking Cole Beasley in his prime here. And that still doesn't solve the overarching problem with this passing offense which is that we have no one who you can plant outside the numbers and expect him to separate consistently. Palmer is ideally a WR3 but he is the best option we have for that role so our only solution is get him healthy and hope that that is enough.

[strive_for_five_guy]

17 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

Knox is 28...are we really going to start claiming that players in their 20s are now declining from age?

Yes, 27.47 was identified as the peak age for TEs.  Knox will turn 29 in a week.  People generally don’t get faster as they get older. 

 

https://apexfantasyleagues.com/peak-age-nfl-tight-end/

[Big Turk]

40 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Sure get him some targets out of the slot, just understand we're not talking Cole Beasley in his prime here. And that still doesn't solve the overarching problem with this passing offense which is that we have no one who you can plant outside the numbers and expect him to separate consistently. Palmer is ideally a WR3 but he is the best option we have for that role so our only solution is get him healthy and hope that that is enough.

 

Yeah, I am not talking about we have to find solutions for problems we don't have solutions for...I am simply wanting them to use the solutions we DO have to fix other issues.

 

IMO, the offense chooses to eliminate needing a WR1 by it's design in most cases. I think we need to just accept that they have decided to choose a different way of getting it done than most teams do and although we might not agree with it, it's extremely effective as they are one of the most efficient teams on offense since they have done it, lead the NFL in offense and have averaged over 30 points a game the last 1.5 years, which is the best in franchise history. 

 

Most teams are looking to get 300 yards passing and 100 yards rushing to get to 400 yards of offense while the Bills are perfectly happy to have 165 yards rushing and 235 yards passing to get to 400 yards.  But they also have the Ace up their sleeve of allowing Allen to be Allen if and when it ever requires that, which is usually only a few times a game. 

 

Essentially, protects Allen from himself, lengthens the "peak" years of his career by him taking less physical punishment and sets him up to excel from the pocket once his movement skills decline some.

Edited 2 hours ago by Big Turk

[BillsVet]

 

14 minutes ago, QB Bills said:

For the record, this is a Sean McDermott offense imo, not a Joe Brady one.

 

The is a point neither made nor accepted enough.  

 

McD has this almost kryptonite view of turnovers that he determined the only offense which can work is one where the franchise QB would rarely throw the ball downfield.  An offense with complete balance running and passing, the latter typically within 10 yards of the LOS.  

 

Josh's advanced passing metrics bear this out.  https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2025/passing_advanced.htm

 

Intended air yards on pass attempts: 21st

Intended air yards per attempt: 26th

Completed air yards: 19th

Completed air yards per completion: 20th

 

This is the offense McD wants and the one he believes should work no matter what defenses do against them.  That's coaching stubborn.  

[HappyDays]

1 hour ago, Big Turk said:

All too often, it seems their plan it to simply double down. 

 

And honestly I'd like them to triple down. We tried opening up the pass against Atlanta and it went horribly. New England is our only opponent this year that has really managed to shut down our run. Other than that when we commit to Cook being the identity of our offense that is when we look our best. I'm not interested in getting any of these WRs more targets other than maybe Palmer when he's healthy. The offensive gameplan against KC was ideal - feed Cook, funnel the pass game through the TEs, pepper in some PA out of multiple TE sets, spam screens to Shakir and the RBs. If you consistently do all that, then you'll get the occasional downfield pass to a WR like we had to Moore because the defense is over committing elsewhere. I hope Brady keeps leaning into that identity because it's what our personnel is built to do. Forget all of the outside noise about the passing game. Commit to our strengths and live with the result.

[Big Turk]

5 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

And honestly I'd like them to triple down. We tried opening up the pass against Atlanta and it went horribly. New England is our only opponent this year that has really managed to shut down our run. Other than that when we commit to Cook being the identity of our offense that is when we look our best. I'm not interested in getting any of these WRs more targets other than maybe Palmer when he's healthy. The offensive gameplan against KC was ideal - feed Cook, funnel the pass game through the TEs, pepper in some PA out of multiple TE sets, spam screens to Shakir and the RBs. If you consistently do all that, then you'll get the occasional downfield pass to a WR like we had to Moore because the defense is over committing elsewhere. I hope Brady keeps leaning into that identity because it's what our personnel is built to do. Forget all of the outside noise about the passing game. Commit to our strengths and live with the result.

 

But even in the Pats game the issue was more that Allen was just mentally way off...had happy feet, bailed from clean pockets where if he waited a half second longer guys were coming wide open, wasn't taking wide open rush lanes in front of him and would force passes instead.  Most of all there were multiple times he had easy layups that he has been taking for the past year and a half that he just refused to take and was looking downfield. That was right after the media were pressing him and Brady about why are they never throwing downfield and it almost seemed like they wanted to "show them" instead of just playing the way they normally did which might not be sexy, but almost always works.

 

I'm not sure what it is but for whatever reason, Allen and the Bills in general seem to have a 2 game stretch every year in mid October where they look completely out of sorts and like they forgot how to play football. Then we never see it again. Last year it was against Baltimore and Houston back to back...

 

Edited 2 hours ago by Big Turk

[RiotAct]

“not today sweetie - we have Wide Receivers who can separate from the defender at home.”

[SoCal Deek]

22 minutes ago, Jukester said:

Absolutely agree with you @Big Turk.  I’ve felt this way for a long time.  Last year: barely threw to MVS, went and got Cooper and used sparingly. This year - barely throw to Samuel or Moore, before injury Palmer was getting minimal targets. Coleman isn’t in the right role outside. Move him to inside quick hitters and use his RAC ability. I don’t want to hear the “lack of separation argument” any more. All 22’s show some separation at times but  coaching isn’t putting these guys in the right spots to get even more separation. 

Very, very well said! I’m beginning to think that a Joe Brady led offense is where Receivers come to die. 

[MikePJ76]

This thread seems to be a more long winded version of what I have been saying since the saints game.  There are open wr down the field and Allen is not taking them for various reasons.  I posted that play that the OP put in the post from erik turner and said the same thing in the post game thread.  Moore was open there for a big play.

 

in the saints game when the team had stalled out in the second quarter and was riddled with bad field position Coleman beat the corner inside and was open on a Dig route but Allen went to Knox and it was incomplete.  The next play Allen tried hitting coleman deep, threw it late and it was picked.  During the panthers game he had moore deep for a TD and on another play samuel was open on a corner route.   And I still believe Allen can make the throw to Samuel, the deep corner to samuel for a go ahead TD on the play that was incomplete to shakir.  

 

The throw to moore sunday gives me hope Allen will start taking these shots when they are there.  This offense's calling card is efficiency, just like Sean Payton, Joe Brady is completely focused on Efficiency.  I think that is why Allen doesn't take the deep ball.  The mind set is keep moving the chains, extend the drive and score in the redzone.  

 

 

 

Edited 2 hours ago by MikePJ76

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

1 hour ago, Big Turk said:

More and more what I am starting to believe is this team has enough at the WR spot and is just misusing them.

 

There is no way you can tell me all of the following players under Brady who have shown the ability to get deep and make plays downfield before and after they have been here just suddenly forgot how to play WR and do that here:

 

• Stefon Diggs (had a phenomenal start to season under Dorsey with multiple 100+ yard games then went mostly silent under Brady)
• MVS (couldn't utilize his deep speed or chose not to then goes to NO after being cut and has multiple weeks in a row I am watching in game updates of him catching 50+ yard TD passes)
• Elijah Moore (always productive even with revolving trashcans throwing to him over his career, 4.3 speed, open a LOT in this offense downfield)
• Josh Palmer (saw plenty of highlights with Herbert targeting and connecting on deep balls with him)
• Gabe Davis (one of the best deep ball WR's in the NFL)

 

Probably some others...

 

Some of this is intentional as Brady prioritizes ball-control, clock-control offense where you take layups over and over again, minimize TOs, run the ball down the other teams throats and then rely on a handful of Allen plays a game to usually win comfortably. 

 

I believe this is also intentional on the way McD wants to play because it limits our TOs, we are super efficient at scoring points and TDs, it limits the opponent possessions meaning they have to score more efficiently than they typically do to keep up and we also are good at taking the ball away many times which further limits their possessions. 

 

All that is good and makes logical sense. But this STILL doesn't excuse the complete ignoring all too often of using what you have to attack the intermediate areas of the field to throw a barrage of short passes. 

 

Take this example in the Chiefs game: 

 

Moore is WIDE OPEN in the deep middle and if Allen hits him in stride it's at least another 5-10 yards on top of that.  What happens? He checks it down to Hawes, who is equally open, but the pass goes awry and it's incomplete...and it's not this one example I am harping on to be clear...Allen was awesome in the Chiefs game. It's the Bills intentionally choose not to make themselves more versatile too often when they don't need to, almost as if they take pride in telling the D "here is what we are going to do, now come and stop us." Most times they can't, but sometimes they can and I don't think they have properly developed their answer to when that happens in critical moments and they are far too slow to shift to it when it DOES happen in those moments. 

 

My thoughts are that Moore needs to be playing a bigger role in this offense and Coleman needs to be playing a lesser one. Palmer needs to be getting some of these type of routes (which, to be fair, he started to in the ATL game before getting hurt). Currently it seems the only person they use on these outside of Moore every so often, is Kincaid, which is great, but it's like c'mon...let's open it up a little here when we need to.  I mean even Samuel showed he has the ability in the Broncos playoff game where he took a deep over to the house and smoke DPOY Surtain...

 

Maybe they are saving it for the playoffs when they need it, but IMO at this point, I think it's mismanaging who they ALREADY HAVE at WR more than them needing another WR that is the bigger problem.

 

Bills seemingly favoring the bigger WRs that help them in run blocking and trying to prevent giving "tells" to the other team that we are passing by bringing in Moore and Samuel instead of Coleman and Shavers but at some point you have to be willing to give up a little in what you do amazingly well to add to the passing game.

 

Gabe one of the best deep ball WRs in the NFL and yet wasn’t even on a current roster prior to coming back. Maybe true a few years ago, but seems his skilled have regressed. Or he is just unlucky. 

 

I do agree about Elijah Moore. I think he needs to be utilized more. They are force feeding Keon Coleman hoping he can put it together. The issue was never his speed. He plays smaller than he is when he should be utilizing his size and box out basketball skills. From every video i’ve seen, he has been a different player than the one at FSU. 

[Big Turk]

3 minutes ago, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

Gabe one of the best deep ball WRs in the NFL and yet wasn’t even on a current roster prior to coming back. Maybe true a few years ago, but seems his skilled have regressed. Or he is just unlucky. 

 

I do agree about Elijah Moore. I think he needs to be utilized more. They are force feeding Keon Coleman hoping he can put it together. The issue was never his speed. He plays smaller than he is when he should be utilizing his size and box out basketball skills. From every video i’ve seen, he has been a different player than the one at FSU. 

 

He was injured and is coming off knee surgery. He played with the injury last year until he couldn't anymore and it required surgery at that point and he had made it worse than it was initially.

Edited 2 hours ago by Big Turk

[vtnatefootball11]

1 hour ago, T.E. said:

Knox had 20 receiving TDs his first four seasons at the TE position. Chris Olave, who most Bills fans coveted to fix this offense, has 13 TDs over the same time period as his team's #1 WR.

 

Don't act like Knox wasn't somewhat effective before Brady took the playcalling reigns.

 

"Somewhat effective" is a far cry from the top 5 elite TE money he got. 8 of those 20 touchdowns over 4 years were in one season, and many of them were flukey.  So the other 3 years he averaged 4 per season, pretty average for a starting tight end. Knox has never been more than a solid starting TE, that was my point. He would still start at TE for several teams but he's not a touchdown machine, nor is he worth the top 5 TE money we paid him.  He also continues to make untimely drops and boneheaded plays. It is what it is, but acting like he's gonna take the top off this offense and score a bunch of touchdowns if we schemed for him is laughable. 

Edited 2 hours ago by vtnatefootball11

[mushypeaches]

Imagine how we would feel if we weren't one of the league leaders in points scored year after year

 

It wasn't that long ago that we were vehemently complaining about the lack of a run game under Dorsey and losing winnable games

It wasn't that long ago that we were vehemently complaining about being too pass-happy under Daboll and losing winnable games

For those that want the Chan Gailey offense again, please remember how those defenses performed

 

I actually believe this team has been designed in a super smart way by Brandon Beane

In the era we are now in for the foreseeable future where you're paying your QB top dollar, you can't field a SB caliber roster without saving money at other positions

WR is increasingly proving to be a position where teams aren't getting the bang for their buck, or the production doesn't equal the $$ commitment

But TE's are a lot cheaper.  So are RB's, even the best ones like Cook

And it all gets unlocked with having a premium OL like we have.  

 

So complain all you want about not having WR's with big stats.  I'll take what we have right now any day.  

But the more important part is that so will McDermott and Beane

[Big Turk]

2 minutes ago, mushypeaches said:

Imagine how we would feel if we weren't one of the league leaders in points scored year after year

 

It wasn't that long ago that we were vehemently complaining about the lack of a run game under Dorsey and losing winnable games

It wasn't that long ago that we were vehemently complaining about being too pass-happy under Daboll and losing winnable games

For those that want the Chan Gailey offense again, please remember how those defenses performed

 

I actually believe this team has been designed in a super smart way by Brandon Beane

In the era we are now in for the foreseeable future where you're paying your QB top dollar, you can't field a SB caliber roster without saving money at other positions

WR is increasingly proving to be a position where teams aren't getting the bang for their buck, or the production doesn't equal the $$ commitment

But TE's are a lot cheaper.  So are RB's, even the best ones like Cook

And it all gets unlocked with having a premium OL like we have.  

 

So complain all you want about not having WR's with big stats.  I'll take what we have right now any day.  

But the more important part is that so will McDermott and Beane

 

I'm not complaining that they don't have a #1 WR. I agree it's by design. I am more complaining that they are not maximizing what they DO have in a way that would be helpful to them and not make certain situations and games more difficult than they need to be, or cause failures in situations where they could do something else and succeed.

Edited 2 hours ago by Big Turk

[Robert Paulson]

Simple question- why can't we 'borrow' some plays from a similar  offense that actually work?

[FormerLV-BILLS]

This is really unscientific and I'm really ready to take the heat for it.  No stats to back it up.  Just my eyeballs, and being at games watching.  But I know what would really make our team use our receivers more, and in the correct role.  IF WE ACTUALLY HAD ONE THAT WAS WORTH A CRAP.

 

Why is it so hard to see, or to admit, that our receviers blow?  It's not any of our faults.  Most of them, for one reason or another, always have, and always will kinda suck.  Shakir would be a beast next to a real #1.

 

This isn't thesis level complicated.  At least I feel better now.  

Edited 2 hours ago by FormerLV-BILLS