The obsession with turning Josh Allen into a pocket QB

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

13 minutes ago, Goin Breakdown said:

I see what you're saying here. 
 I just don't like that we have probably the best QB in the league and this staff is just bent on being a run team. Not a team that CAN run but a team that wants to focus on the run. Why the hell do we need Josh then. Just get a game manager if you want to play that kind of ball. They don't care to surround Josh with a complete group of complimentary receivers. Just a redundant slot group. They like Coleman because he can block not catch. It's mainly about the run. And then the thing that baffles my brain is they take Cook off the field when we need 1 yard on 3rd down. I can't figure this office and staff out. 

That's precisely what I'm saying. This administration is unwilling to or is incapable of finding and utilizing receiving talent.

 

They WANT a ground and pound offense, but then take their most effective player in that offense (cook) off the field when it's needed most 

Edited Wednesday at 05:54 PM by Pine Barrens Mafia

[corta765]

18 hours ago, BillsFan130 said:

I will never understand the complete overhaul they did on offence after Daboll.

 

They went from a heavy 11 personnel team who airs the ball all over the yard with talented recievers, to "ground and pound" with heavy packages, and little talent at the WR position.

 

I get they had to change a bit as defences in the NFL have adjusted to a lot more 2 high shell.. But this drastic of a change when JA17 is the QB, and we are essentially making him a game manager? 

 

Never will understand it

 

The NFL changed not only 2 high shell but personnel wise. Teams are not giving the big plays up and want you to beat you with a lot of plays. Additionally defenses are far more athletic then they were prior and more defenses have gone back from nickel base to a 4-3 or 3-4. In general the league is always changing and evolving and if you do not evolve with it you die.

It is kind of wild people are saying Josh is just a game manager when he won MVP last year and had some of his biggest games of his career that season.

 

I would also add QBs age and time wins every time. Josh long term needs to be a passer first and let his guys do the work if you want him still good come his late 30s. Brady & Manning understood this and their game improved as mentally they could destroy defenses even if physically they were no longer improving or lost a touch.

[BillsFan130]

27 minutes ago, corta765 said:

 

The NFL changed not only 2 high shell but personnel wise. Teams are not giving the big plays up and want you to beat you with a lot of plays. Additionally defenses are far more athletic then they were prior and more defenses have gone back from nickel base to a 4-3 or 3-4. In general the league is always changing and evolving and if you do not evolve with it you die.

It is kind of wild people are saying Josh is just a game manager when he won MVP last year and had some of his biggest games of his career that season.

 

I would also add QBs age and time wins every time. Josh long term needs to be a passer first and let his guys do the work if you want him still good come his late 30s. Brady & Manning understood this and their game improved as mentally they could destroy defenses even if physically they were no longer improving or lost a touch.

I did mention the bills couldn't do the same thing now as 2021. But they over corrected in my opinion.

 

You can still get big plays in the air. Just cause a team plays cover 2, quarters, or cover 3, it doesn't mean there aren't big plays to be had. (Just look at the bengals offence last year)

 

Hell just look at the bills defence. We play a ton of soft zone and give up explosive play after explosive play lol

 

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

5 hours ago, Pine Barrens Mafia said:

Don't have the horses. Receivers have sucked for years. TEs are good but overrated. Have a fast back and hardly pass to him.

 

The Bills are like a Boomer who buys a Ferrari only to never drive it over 50 MPH.

 

This leads me to one of two logical outcomes:

 

1) bills keep management and trade Allen. Why have a stud QB if you're not interested building an offense for him?

 

2) bills keep Allen and ditch management. My preferred solution 

 

What's clear is continuing on in this manner is stupid and counterproductive 

 

Not retaining key role players like Mack Hollins also hurt. The Bills weren’t the most explosive passing team last year, but definitely one of the better ones. Good enough for an MVP season. I feel like Beane could’ve went a better route (no pun intended) if he wanted a distribution system in the WR room. Carefully selected what role players instead of seemingly throwing together a random group of guys that don’t fit together. 

[TBBills Fan]

I'm concerned about his decision making the last two games and curious as to why he hates throwing left 

[Buffalo716]

22 hours ago, Pine Barrens Mafia said:

That's what McDermott wanted. "Complementary football," i.e. run heavy offense to protect his sad sack defense 

McDermott has put out multiple top 5 defenses here lol

 

The fact people think it's been 8 years of crap is fantasy not fact 

 

He doesn't have the dogs on defense right now

[Freak-O]

I don’t claim to know a lot about the intricacies of football, but I do know one thing: the Bills offense is sometimes not that fun to watch and considering we have Josh it’s frustrating to see it stall. Not sold on Brady, but as I said, I know nothing. 

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

17 minutes ago, Freak-O said:

I don’t claim to know a lot about the intricacies of football, but I do know one thing: the Bills offense is sometimes not that fun to watch and considering we have Josh it’s frustrating to see it stall. Not sold on Brady, but as I said, I know nothing. 

No, you’re right. It’s a BORING offense. Even the announcers have been bringing it up during games. That kind of stuff works with Tom Brady and a cast of carefully selected short white WRs and steroid abusing homicidal Tight ends. Not so much what a high-octane Josh Allen offense SHOULD be which is big chunk throws/runs and a complementary running game. I get that they don’t have the cast, but WHOS fault is that, Beane ? 
 

Edit: kind of bummed that Daboll is turning it around in Jersey. There was the offhand chance that maybe he would come back here. I was never a Daboll hater either. I follow the Giants closely because of him. 

Edited Wednesday at 10:06 PM by ChronicAndKnuckles

[DapperCam]

22 hours ago, 947 said:

I fully agree that they should let Josh run around more.

 

That said, Josh is not the same runner he was even 2 years ago. He's clearly not as fast as once was, to my eyes. His top speed is still good but his acceleration is not the same and his change of direction appears more stiff. I think this is why he keeps getting trapped in the backfield & brought down, when those used to turn into 10 yard scrambles.

I don’t think he slower at all. He just more hesitant to take off, which is OP’s entire point.

[GoBills808]

33 minutes ago, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

No, you’re right. It’s a BORING offense. Even the announcers have been bringing it up during games. That kind of stuff works with Tom Brady and a cast of carefully selected short white WRs and steroid abusing homicidal Tight ends. Not so much what a high-octane Josh Allen offense SHOULD be which is big chunk throws/runs and a complementary running game. I get that they don’t have the cast, but WHOS fault is that, Beane ? 
 

Edit: kind of bummed that Daboll is turning it around in Jersey. There was the offhand chance that maybe he would come back here. I was never a Daboll hater either. I follow the Giants closely because of him. 

here you go

 

hate to quote myself but i love to quote myself

 

On 9/3/2024 at 9:42 AM, GoBills808 said:

i would encourage you folks to go and watch some panthers 2020 offense before you get too excited

 

it wasn't just laughably bad and predictable, it was boring af

 

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

1 hour ago, Buffalo716 said:

McDermott has put out multiple top 5 defenses here lol

 

The fact people think it's been 8 years of crap is fantasy not fact 

 

He doesn't have the dogs on defense right now

He didn't last year either.

 

Spent an entire draft to find him some, no dice. Now the offense is paying that tab

[RoscoeParrish]

The best pathway to longevity in Josh’s career is him having a strong running game and strong OL and strong weapons to throw to.

 

we have struggled to put all 3 together at once. And that has resulted in him getting hit more than an ideal amount.

[BillsFanForever19]

5 hours ago, Pine Barrens Mafia said:

That's precisely what I'm saying. This administration is unwilling to or is incapable of finding and utilizing receiving talent.

 

They WANT a ground and pound offense, but then take their most effective player in that offense (cook) off the field when it's needed most 

 

Exactly.

 

The problem with a ground and pound offense is you still need to have people that the Defense respects in the Passing game.

 

The run sets up the pass and the pass sets up the run. We certainly have a running game people respect. But bc of the lack of pass catchers that can get open, it's become really easy for teams to key in on Cook and no one can win even one on one to punish them for that.

[zow2]

I like this thread, as it's been a topic I have talked about over the last few years.  Unpopular opinion but I don't think Allen is a great pocket passer. I never have.  To me he's just not accurate enough and he's sometimes a bit slow to read the coverages.  If they have a play where it's 1, 2, 3.. back foot down, ball thrown quickly it's usually good.  But if the coverage is disguised he has trouble.  Don't get me wrong, he's still good from the pocket, just not elite,,, like Brady, Manning, Burrow, etc..

 

To me, Allen separates himself into an MVP QB because of what he does when he moves his feet..  When he's throwing on the run, moving around, scrambling and finding a guy downfield. that is magic.  When he rolls out and take the 7 yard gain out of bounds, that's fine.  When he takes off and runs, it can change the game.  

 

To the main point of this thread, turning him into a pocket QB is going to not go well.  Teams have started blitzing like crazy, and it's already taking away from his ability to move around as the pocket caves in.  I think his chance of injury is greater in the pocket rather than getting out of there.

[mjt328]

18 hours ago, corta765 said:

The NFL changed not only 2 high shell but personnel wise. Teams are not giving the big plays up and want you to beat you with a lot of plays. Additionally defenses are far more athletic then they were prior and more defenses have gone back from nickel base to a 4-3 or 3-4. In general the league is always changing and evolving and if you do not evolve with it you die.

It is kind of wild people are saying Josh is just a game manager when he won MVP last year and had some of his biggest games of his career that season.

 

I would also add QBs age and time wins every time. Josh long term needs to be a passer first and let his guys do the work if you want him still good come his late 30s. Brady & Manning understood this and their game improved as mentally they could destroy defenses even if physically they were no longer improving or lost a touch.

 

I completely agree with this statement.

• If Josh Allen has a chance at playing into his mid-30s or later, he absolutely must become more of a QB that beats you from the pocket with his mind.  The legs are going to slow down with age, and it's going to become more difficult to recover from hits as he gets older.
• Two years ago, the big flaw with Allen's game was turnovers.  We usually overcame it.  But there were games (Jets, Broncos) during 2023 where turnovers lost us the game, and it almost cost us the playoffs/division.  Fixing this last year made the offense and team better.
• Defenses have adjusted to the deep passing game around the league, so it's not working as well anymore.  For virtually anyone.  Teams with the most offensive success are those with strong running games and efficient/short passing games.

With that said, I do understand where the frustration is stemming from.  And fans complaining are not totally off-base.

 

Just because the downfield passing game isn't our PRIMARY mode of attack anymore, doesn't mean we should abandon it completely.  There has to be some level of keeping defensive coordinators honest.  We can't just go weeks on end without testing teams deep.  We can't just roster 6-7 WRs every year and have nobody with deep speed.  Because eventually teams will creep up to the line of scrimmage, take out the running and short stuff... and at that point we need to have a way to make them pay.

 

In the same way, I do think Joe Brady needs to have a few timely designed QB runs every single game.  They don't need to be power rushes up the middle that force Allen to take a huge tackle.  But something to remind the defenses who we have under center, and what he's capable of doing.  

 

Edited 17 hours ago by mjt328

[corta765]

3 minutes ago, mjt328 said:

With that said, I do understand where the frustration is stemming from.  And fans complaining are not totally off-base.

 

Just because the downfield passing game isn't our PRIMARY mode of attack anymore, doesn't mean we should abandon it completely.  There has to be some level of keeping defensive coordinators honest.  We can't just go weeks on end without testing teams deep.  We can't just roster 6-7 WRs every year and have nobody with deep speed.  Because eventually teams will creep up to the line of scrimmage, take out the running and short stuff... and at that point we need to have a way to make them pay.

 

In the same way, I do think Joe Brady needs to have a few timely designed QB runs every single game.  They don't need to be power rushes up the middle that force Allen to take a huge tackle.  But something to remind the defenses who we have under center, and what he's capable of doing.  

 

Thank and I agree as I am frustrated also. I personally believe part of the downfield not being attacked is a choice because the defense is a mess injuries and play wise and if Buffalo can keep the other team off the field chasing they prefer that right now. The team with WR choices and gameplan has decided not to attack deep which is a choice and one that needs some type of evolution. I am a big Brady fan as OC but for the first time since he became OC I think he has been behind the opponents defense for most of the games this year. Some of this is due to penalties, the offensive line not being at par, and turnovers the last bunch of weeks, but some of it is being to cute with reverse style plays when we literally need one yard for a first and just sending Josh or Cook forward is the far more logical smarter decision. I absolutely believe he will figure it out quick, but adding Olave or Ridley (fill in a name and its probably an upgrade) would be a seismic help also.

[frostbitmic]

Seems like they take Cook out on 3rd and long because he's not a good blocker only to replace him with Moore or Knox and send them out for passes or to fumble end arounds anyway.

 

For once before he gets canned I'd like to see Brady say **** it and open Josh up, throw it deep, score as fast as possible etc ... At least it would be more entertaining than these last few games have been.

 

Lately the game plans on both sides of the ball seem to be turning our players into unenthusiastic drones.

[zow2]

9 minutes ago, frostbitmic said:

Seems like they take Cook out on 3rd and long because he's not a good blocker only to replace him with Moore or Knox and send them out for passes or to fumble end arounds anyway.

 

For once before he gets canned I'd like to see Brady say **** it and open Josh up, throw it deep, score as fast as possible etc ... At least it would be more entertaining than these last few games have been.

 

Lately the game plans on both sides of the ball seem to be turning our players into unenthusiastic drones.

 

As others have said, the management must have come into the season thinking they are so good with Allen that the Bills can manipulate games... D can force turnovers, then bend but don't break while they work in some rookies... O can plow them over with our offensive line, run at will, quick passes, keep Josh safe planted in the pocket...30+ points per game.  then get the 1 seed easily and unleash the entire playbook in January.   Yeah we all know NFL football doesn't work that way.

[dorquemada]

20 hours ago, Goin Breakdown said:

I see what you're saying here. 
 I just don't like that we have probably the best QB in the league and this staff is just bent on being a run team. Not a team that CAN run but a team that wants to focus on the run. Why the hell do we need Josh then. Just get a game manager if you want to play that kind of ball. They don't care to surround Josh with a complete group of complimentary receivers. Just a redundant slot group. They like Coleman because he can block not catch. It's mainly about the run. And then the thing that baffles my brain is they take Cook off the field when we need 1 yard on 3rd down. I can't figure this office and staff out. 

 

Why even have Allen on a 70s style offensive scheme?  No wonder he's checked out.  

[Goin Breakdown]

4 minutes ago, dorquemada said:

 

Why even have Allen on a 70s style offensive scheme?  No wonder he's checked out.  

Agree. They've taken their best player and said we want to do something different. Not that want to be balanced but they WANT to be a running team. It's crazy.