Bills consistent excellence on offense after this year will be historically great

[TheBrownBear]

2 hours ago, NewEra said:

According to accomplishments- I agree with you.  According to the eye, Allen is the best.  Put Allen on Brady or Mahomes’ teams and they win similar sbs if not more.

 

winning Super Bowls is a team accomplishment but the QB is judged on winning championships more than any position in sports.  He has none, so he can’t be considered the best in most circles- but if you were starting a team of any QB in history, I’d bet plenty of non Bills fans that know the game would choose Josh 1st. He’d be my unquestioned 1st choice.  Steve Young would probably be my second choice followed by Mahomes, Rodgers and Brady. Marino most likely next and ahead of many QBs with SBs

It sounds ridiculous, but I came to the same conclusion last year. We are witnessing the greatest to ever play the position and not many people (especially outside of Buffalo) are realizing it - too caught up in the "rings" narrative.

[GoBills808]

2 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

I didn’t know Daboll was out of the league.  Who is the Giants HC right now?

im guessing if we go back thru your posts you'll be one of the many saying how important Daboll was to the offense and we can't afford to lose him

 

meanwhile go back thru mine and you'll see predictions that he'd flame out w no Allen

[Royale with Cheese]

Just now, GoBills808 said:

im guessing if we go back thru your posts you'll be one of the many saying how important Daboll was to the offense and we can't afford to lose him

 

meanwhile go back thru mine and you'll see predictions that he'd flame out w no Allen

 

No, I never said that.  In fact, I have stated that good teams are going to lose Coordinators.  I was a big proponent to give it to Brady full time after Dorsey.

 

Do you think Daboll flames out if he had like a Lamar Jackson, Joe Burrow, Patrick Mahomes or a Justin Herbert?

Probably not.  It's hard to succeed with Daniel Jones and Russell Wilson.  Just like it was hard for Belicheck to succeed with the crap at QB in Cleveland.

 

Regardless, you made the statement that Brady will be out of the league soon like Daboll post Allen.  I questioned it because it was false.

Then you respond with me assuming I said we can't afford to lose Daboll?  Okay.  

[GoBills808]

5 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

No, I never said that.  In fact, I have stated that good teams are going to lose Coordinators.  I was a big proponent to give it to Brady full time after Dorsey.

 

Do you think Daboll flames out if he had like a Lamar Jackson, Joe Burrow, Patrick Mahomes or a Justin Herbert?

Probably not.  It's hard to succeed with Daniel Jones and Russell Wilson.  Just like it was hard for Belicheck to succeed with the crap at QB in Cleveland.

 

Regardless, you made the statement that Brady will be out of the league soon like Daboll post Allen.  I questioned it because it was false.

Then you respond with me assuming I said we can't afford to lose Daboll?  Okay.  

just a guess

and the entire point is that just like it's hard to succed w Daniel Jones (not really lol) its equally easy to succed w Allen

[Big Turk]

 

 

[HappyDays]

On 9/23/2025 at 2:17 PM, Gregg said:

Allen is probably the best athlete to play the QB position, but Brady is still #1 with his 7 Super Bowl wins

 

Yeah Brady is still the GOAT for sure. The crazy thing about his career is he has what I consider to be three separate Hall of Fame careers - age 24 to 30, age 32 to 37, and age 38 to 45. Any one of those stretches was an all-time resume. That's how ridiculously good he was.

 

To put Allen's career in perspective, he's still 3 years away from Brady's 2nd Hall of Fame career. And he just keeps getting better. After an MVP season last year he's shown an even better command of the offense so far this year. So who knows what his career will look like at the age of 35. The common belief has been that his production will drop off significantly after his physical skills decline. While he obviously won't be stiff arming the Aaron Donalds of the NFL in 10 years, there's to reason to think his mental abilities will keep improving and that will counteract the physical decline. Brady got to a point late in his career where he had basically solved the sport and couldn't be fooled. There's no reason Allen can't get there after 10+ years of play.

[Walking Tall]

On 9/23/2025 at 1:22 PM, Big Turk said:

Bills have averaged 29.3 points per game from 2020-2025. Assuming they stay around the same or slightly higher, the Bills will have the 2nd or 3rd highest scoring offense in the history of the NFL over any 6 year period.  The 2008-2013 Patriot teams that averaged 30.6 points per game are first, followed by the 2009-2014 Saints teams under Brees that averaged 30 PPG.

 

Better than the Greatest Show on Turf Rams, The Manning Colts or Broncos, the Chief led MahomeBoys, the Kelly era Bills, the Marino era Fins, the Run-N-Shoot Oilers . 

 

It would be a tragedy of epic proportions if Allen keeps being failed by the coaching, defense and special teams in the playoffs. The historic greatness of what we are witnessing every day might not be appreciated right now while we are in the middle of it, but this team will go down as one of the greatest offensive teams in the history of the NFL over a multi-season time frame.

 

Appreciate it.  Stop worrying about "we aren't doing this enough, or that enough".  What we are witnessing has only been seen a few other times in the history of the NFL.

 

 

The ironic thing about this? The Patriots didn’t win a Super Bowl Bowl during that time frame with having what many consider the best defensive mind in the history of football as their HC.

Edited September 24 by Walking Tall

[Mr. WEO]

On 9/23/2025 at 1:22 PM, Big Turk said:

Bills have averaged 29.3 points per game from 2020-2025. Assuming they stay around the same or slightly higher, the Bills will have the 2nd or 3rd highest scoring offense in the history of the NFL over any 6 year period.  The 2008-2013 Patriot teams that averaged 30.6 points per game are first, followed by the 2009-2014 Saints teams under Brees that averaged 30 PPG.

 

Better than the Greatest Show on Turf Rams, The Manning Colts or Broncos, the Chief led MahomeBoys, the Kelly era Bills, the Marino era Fins, the Run-N-Shoot Oilers . 

 

It would be a tragedy of epic proportions if Allen keeps being failed by the coaching, defense and special teams in the playoffs. The historic greatness of what we are witnessing every day might not be appreciated right now while we are in the middle of it, but this team will go down as one of the greatest offensive teams in the history of the NFL over a multi-season time frame.

 

Appreciate it.  Stop worrying about "we aren't doing this enough, or that enough".  What we are witnessing has only been seen a few other times in the history of the NFL.

 

 

 

well besides the QBs, Rams, Colts, Broncos, Chiefs and Fins are remembered by their other skills position players...which is why they are "truly great".  Years from now, few will remember who these players were on the Bills for this 5 year run except maybe Diggs.

 

Josh will be viewed like Brady---able to run up the numbers with a bunch of B listers (over this 5 year stretch). 

[Big Turk]

2 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

well besides the QBs, Rams, Colts, Broncos, Chiefs and Fins are remembered by their other skills position players...which is why they are "truly great".  Years from now, few will remember who these players were on the Bills for this 5 year run except maybe Diggs.

 

Josh will be viewed like Brady---able to run up the numbers with a bunch of B listers (over this 5 year stretch). 

 

Brady had Moss and then Hernandez/Gronk as the first true modern duel TE offense in the way they attacked defenses...

 

Hardly also rans. Gronk and Moss are HOF players.

[Mr. WEO]

13 hours ago, Big Turk said:

 

Brady had Moss and then Hernandez/Gronk as the first true modern duel TE offense in the way they attacked defenses...

 

Hardly also rans. Gronk and Moss are HOF players.

 

He had Moss for 3 full seasons and zero Lombardys (1 SB appearance).

 

Ditto for Hernandez (3 seasons, 1 SB appearance, zero Lombardys), who will only be remembered as a psychotic serial killer.  They were not a significant part of NE's SB dynasty.

 

Gronk is a predictable but legit comeback. But Brady had 3 rings years before he met Gronk, or Moss.

 

 

 

 

[Einstein's Dog]

On 9/23/2025 at 1:22 PM, Big Turk said:

Bills have averaged 29.3 points per game from 2020-2025. Assuming they stay around the same or slightly higher, the Bills will have the 2nd or 3rd highest scoring offense in the history of the NFL over any 6 year period.  The 2008-2013 Patriot teams that averaged 30.6 points per game are first, followed by the 2009-2014 Saints teams under Brees that averaged 30 PPG.

 

Better than the Greatest Show on Turf Rams, The Manning Colts or Broncos, the Chief led MahomeBoys, the Kelly era Bills, the Marino era Fins, the Run-N-Shoot Oilers . 

 

It would be a tragedy of epic proportions if Allen keeps being failed by the coaching, defense and special teams in the playoffs. The historic greatness of what we are witnessing every day might not be appreciated right now while we are in the middle of it, but this team will go down as one of the greatest offensive teams in the history of the NFL over a multi-season time frame.

 

Appreciate it.  Stop worrying about "we aren't doing this enough, or that enough".  What we are witnessing has only been seen a few other times in the history of the NFL.

 

The Bills have a good offense but the numbers above can be misleading. 

For several of the Bills years 2020-2025 the average start from kickoffs was much better as the NFL has tinkered with the rules on where to kick from and where to bring the ball out to.   For the Bills in that time frame the ball came out to at least the 30, so you only had to go 35 yards to be in scoring position.

[Big Turk]

1 hour ago, Einstein's Dog said:

The Bills have a good offense but the numbers above can be misleading. 

For several of the Bills years 2020-2025 the average start from kickoffs was much better as the NFL has tinkered with the rules on where to kick from and where to bring the ball out to.   For the Bills in that time frame the ball came out to at least the 30, so you only had to go 35 yards to be in scoring position.

 

Not enough to average almost 3 PPG over that time more than the next closest team which was the Cowboys.  That also include all the times the Bills essentially started running the clock by mid 2nd quarter or by midway thru the second half with big leads where they just took as much time off the clock as possible to shorten the game.  Could easily have racked up lots more points if they wanted to be aggressive, and games Allen took the entire 4th quarter off and twice he didn't even play other than to hand the ball off before leaving.

Edited September 25 by Big Turk

[JustHewIt]

Yeah sure ho hum 30ppg, do points even count if we're not throwing ten deep balls a game? Do better McBeane!!!!1+!11!

 

All kidding aside, it's incredible how effortlessly we score 30 points a game and how it can feel disappointing at times. We're really fortunate to be experiencing this era and we deserve it.

[Alphadawg7]

On 9/24/2025 at 9:43 AM, NewEra said:

According to accomplishments- I agree with you.  According to the eye, Allen is the best.  Put Allen on Brady or Mahomes’ teams and they win similar sbs if not more.

 

winning Super Bowls is a team accomplishment but the QB is judged on winning championships more than any position in sports.  He has none, so he can’t be considered the best in most circles- but if you were starting a team of any QB in history, I’d bet plenty of non Bills fans that know the game would choose Josh 1st. He’d be my unquestioned 1st choice.  Steve Young would probably be my second choice followed by Mahomes, Rodgers and Brady. Marino most likely next and ahead of many QBs with SBs

 

Steve Young might be the most under appreciated and underrated HOF Great QB.  Its nice to see him getting some love here, kudos.  

 

I am not sure I take him 2nd behind Allen, but he is in my top 5 for sure.  

[The Jokeman]

On 9/23/2025 at 1:52 PM, zow2 said:

It's all wonderful but they gotta win a SB to be remembered as all-time greats.  They have to AT LEAST get to a Super Bowl.

Dan Fouts might disagree with this as well as Warren Moon. 

21 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Steve Young might be the most under appreciated and underrated HOF Great QB.  Its nice to see him getting some love here, kudos.  

 

I am not sure I take him 2nd behind Allen, but he is in my top 5 for sure.  

The issue with Young is he sucked in Tampa and then was a backup for years and then got to play on a team that won 4 Super Bowls prior to him starting. As good as he was he was helped by a great surrounding cast/coaching staff. I mean outside of Young he had other HOFers around him like Rice, Bryant Young, Rickey Jackson and Deion Sanders. 

[Lost]

On 9/23/2025 at 1:22 PM, Big Turk said:

Bills have averaged 29.3 points per game from 2020-2025. Assuming they stay around the same or slightly higher, the Bills will have the 2nd or 3rd highest scoring offense in the history of the NFL over any 6 year period.  The 2008-2013 Patriot teams that averaged 30.6 points per game are first, followed by the 2009-2014 Saints teams under Brees that averaged 30 PPG.

 

Better than the Greatest Show on Turf Rams, The Manning Colts or Broncos, the Chief led MahomeBoys, the Kelly era Bills, the Marino era Fins, the Run-N-Shoot Oilers . 

 

It would be a tragedy of epic proportions if Allen keeps being failed by the coaching, defense and special teams in the playoffs. The historic greatness of what we are witnessing every day might not be appreciated right now while we are in the middle of it, but this team will go down as one of the greatest offensive teams in the history of the NFL over a multi-season time frame.

 

Appreciate it.  Stop worrying about "we aren't doing this enough, or that enough".  What we are witnessing has only been seen a few other times in the history of the NFL.

 

 

 

 

 

Isaac Bruce, Marvin Harrison, Tyreek Hill, Marks Brothers.   It's disgusting how good Josh Allen is when he doesn't have a HOF receiver to throw to.   Get Josh Allen a true stud WR Beane so he can win 8 Super Bowls and take Brady's GOAT status.  

 

Edited September 25 by Lost

[NewEra]

2 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Steve Young might be the most under appreciated and underrated HOF Great QB.  Its nice to see him getting some love here, kudos.  

 

I am not sure I take him 2nd behind Allen, but he is in my top 5 for sure.  

I hear ya-  it’s just my eye test. His efficiency combined with movement was unmatched.  Loved watching that guy play 

[folz]

9 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

He had Moss for 3 full seasons and zero Lombardys (1 SB appearance).

 

Ditto for Hernandez (3 seasons, 1 SB appearance, zero Lombardys), who will only be remembered as a psychotic serial killer.  They were not a significant part of NE's SB dynasty.

 

Gronk is a predictable but legit comeback. But Brady had 3 rings years before he met Gronk, or Moss.

 

 

 

 

 

No question New England saw a string of mediocre receivers wash through during the Brady years. And I don't think many people will argue against the fact that Brady probably did more with less than any other SB winning QB.

 

But, for a 12-year stretch, he did have pretty good top targets at least:

2007: Moss, Welker, TE Ben Watson

2008: Moss, Welker, Watson

2009: Moss, Welker, Edelman, Watson

2010: Moss (for 4 games), Gronkoski, Hernandez, Welker, Edelman

2011: Gronkowski, Hernandez, Welker , Edelman

2012: Gronkowski, Hernandez, Welker, Edelman

2013: Gronk and Edelman

2014: Gronk and Edelman

2015: Gronk and Edelman

2016: Gronk and Edelman

2017: Gronk and Edelman

2018: Gronk and Edelman

 

*Bold years indicate a Super Bowl appearance. [Note, having Gronk and Edelman was not unlike KC having Kelce and Hill. No question Hill is better than Edelman, but you know what I mean.]

 

Similar to the Bills...no #1 X-receiver (outside of the Moss years), but Brady did still have at least a couple of very good players to throw the ball to (besides the Brandin Cooks, Josh Gordons, Deion Branches, Chris Hogans, Brandon Llyods, Danny Amendolas, and Brandon LaFells that cycled through). The Pats appeared in 5 of their 9 Brady-era SBs during those years, 2007-2018---2 wins, 3 losses in the Bowl. Edelman isn't a HOFer or anything, but he was a damn good player in that system and with Brady (over a 6-year stretch, discounting games he was out for injury/pro-rating them, he was averaging 1,117 yards and 6 TDs per season). And earlier in Brady's career, the Pats had a better defense and Brady was more of a game manager, and though not a murderer's row, he did have Troy Brown, Ben Watson, and Corey Dillon in that era, plus a good D. Still, no question, Brady did more with less.

 

In relation to Josh, I would say that Josh currently (this year) has more/better weapons overall than Brady had for the majority of his career (outside of a few years maybe), but Josh has never had a Moss- or a Gronk-level player either...Diggs was close, but not nearly as dominant (or as big and strong) as the other two in their prime. Diggs was a pro-bowler, Moss and Gronk were generational talents. As far as the Bills of this era, yes, Diggs will obviously be remembered. Shakir may be remembered as an Edelman/Welker type. I think Kincaid and Coleman (if they continue their progression) will probably be remembered. Cook obviously will be remembered (though a RB, not a full-time pass catcher). Hawes is looking like more than just a blocker (who knows where his career goes). But yes, over the previous 5 years, not a lot of guys will stand out from those teams (2020-2024) when looking back from the future.

 

 

As to the Bills scoring (interesting stat callout OP),

 

If they continue at their current 2025 scoring average of 34 points a game (improbable), they would end the 6-year stretch at 29.93 points/game.

If they scored the same amount this year as last year, they would end the 6-year stretch at 29.40 points/game.

If they continued at their 5-year (2020-2024) scoring average, they would end the 6-year stretch at 28.98 points/game

 

If I'm not mistaken, any of those scenarios would put them ahead of the New Orleans run. But, we would need to average 38.79 points per game the rest of the season to match New England's run (2008-2013). Really shows you just how good that New England offense was over that stretch---although that team did like to run up the score a lot, which McD never really does---but then, New England will have also played 4 fewer games in their span too (than the current Bills)...due to the increase from 16 to 17 games in 2021, but then the Bills losing the Cincinnati game). 

 

 

 

Edited September 25 by folz

[Alphadawg7]

3 hours ago, The Jokeman said:

The issue with Young is he sucked in Tampa and then was a backup for years and then got to play on a team that won 4 Super Bowls prior to him starting. As good as he was he was helped by a great surrounding cast/coaching staff. I mean outside of Young he had other HOFers around him like Rice, Bryant Young, Rickey Jackson and Deion Sanders. 

 

All this is subjective and all just our individual opinions, so all good...but here is my response to these points.

 

He was drafted by what is widely regarded as the worst team in NFL history - literally those 2 seasons with the Bucs are 2 or the worst rosters ever assembled prior to Young getting there.  A case can be made that no one was going to succeed on those teams, especially a rookie QB.  

 

To be fair, the team Young took over wasn't a "4 time SB winning roster" - yes the franchise won 4 SB's, but those were with mostly different rosters.  Wasn't like the Niners had just won the previous 4 SB's and then Young took over if you know what I mean.  

 

And no disrespect, but name a top 10 QB all time that did not have some combo of great suporting cast and coaching. Not really fair to hold that against Young when it was true for every one of the all time great QB's.  I am sure you would agree that its pretty hard to be a highly successful and all time great QB if you don't have supporting talent and good coaching. 

 

Montana, Brady, Mahomes, Rodgers, Brees, Elway, Manning, etc all had that for most or all of their careers.  Ironically, Young did not have that to start his career, worst supporting cast and coaching probably in the history of the league those early years in Tampa.  

 

Just my 2 cents

[Matt_In_NH]

Where is that wr choo choo?