Interesting in-game convo between Shakir and Palmer

[Einstein]

6 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

On both of the next two possessions Josh checked out of plays into a run up the middle and a screen. Now who knows what those calls were originally (pretty sure the first on 2nd and 1 was a pass) but wjen people are criticising conservative play calling they need to take that into account. 

 

I don’t think he checked out of a pass. I think it was a run and he changed the direction.

 

He called an alert to tell the OL that he was changing direction and then signaled to Cook behind his back.

[GunnerBill]

33 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

I don’t think he checked out of a pass. I think it was a run and he changed the direction.

 

He called an alert to tell the OL that he was changing direction and then signaled to Cook behind his back.

 

I think it was a pass because he called the alert and THEN signalled behind his back to Cook the direction of the run. If it was just a run switched to the other side why would he need the second signal? Cook's not an idiot he heard the alert! I mean we don't know for certain my strong suspicion on that one was that it was a pass. 

 

The screen on 3rd and 6 in the next series was obviously a pass but we don't know what kind of pass but he killed that and went to the screen (he also didn't throw that screen great Kincaid kinda had to come back to it). 

 

I think the playcalling on those two series can take some heat, but not all the plays we ran were the plays we called. 

[DrDawkinstein]

13 hours ago, Richard Noggin said:

What if they tried starting the game (against elite teams especially) with that same urgency and aggression? That's my biggest complaint. Our defense isn't good enough most of the time against the best offenses, but could be with more help (scoring) to make those offenses more one-dimensional. 

 

I'm pretty sure they played the whole game the same way. The difference at the end was that the Ravens changed and went into "protect the lead, kill the clock" mode. Which allowed Josh to feast.

 

Our Offense does it's job and puts up plenty of points. The Defense just needs to do theirs for once. Offense cant play Defense on top of it.

[somnus00]

I understand both sides of this. The Bills put up 41 on Baltimore. That's great. No one is mad about that. They got the win.

 

But so often there seemed to be no rhythm on offense. Primarily in the first 3 quarters. Bills had to scratch and crawl for every inch then rely on Josh to be superman on 3rd and long.

 

Meanwhile, the Ravens run well timed/executed screens, Lamar throws to guys schemed open.

 

Brady has done a great job developing a run game. But the passing game needs work. We don't have the best receiving corps in the league. But they're not jags either. Shakir, Palmer, and Moore can get it done, I believe. 

[Cheektowaga Chad]

The bills scored 19 points through 3 quarters, that is as many or more than 18ish teams scored in their entire game

 

The offense was perfectly fine through three quarters 

[Rocbillsfan1]

13 hours ago, Richard Noggin said:

What if they tried starting the game (against elite teams especially) with that same urgency and aggression? That's my biggest complaint. Our defense isn't good enough most of the time against the best offenses, but could be with more help (scoring) to make those offenses more one-dimensional. 

Most teams you hopefully won’t need that kind of game script which should put less pressure work on Allen and some of the key players. We don’t play Baltimore every week. You don’t want Allen playing Superman every week. 

[Goin Breakdown]

13 hours ago, BuffaloBillyG said:

I like that players count on JA17 late in games. But I don't like that it just comes across as "we don't have to do anything special most of the game....Josh will figure it out".

And then on the flip side I feel like there's those games where we are so far ahead and then let teams squeak back into it. I know we have a huge point differential since like 2020, but once in a while I feel like we let the foot off the gas. 

[ticketssince61]

10 hours ago, Richard Noggin said:

 

And how many attempts did Allen have in order to produce that level of production for Palmer? (was 5 catches btw, not 6)

 

Week 1 extrapolates out to a career best, 1,000+ yard season (and career best 85 receptions) for Palmer, but there is NO reality in which Bills coaches intend to see Allen attempt 46 passes again this regular season. It could happen, but should be more of an outlier if the Bills are able to dictate a balanced attack the ways they hope to most weeks.

 

Last regular season, for example, Allen had a peak of 40 attempts ONE time, against KC in a win. The year prior, though, he got to at least 40 attempts 5 times, and only 1 of those was a win. The year prior to that, he had 40+ attempts 5 times, with 3 of those being wins. And prior to that in 2021, Allen had 40+ attempts 8 times, winning only 4 of those games.

 

So, since 2021, prior to 2025, JA17/Buffalo has thrown at least 40 pass attempts 19 times out of 67 games, and is 9-10 in those games. Overall, the Bills are 46-21 over that span, which means they are 37-11 when attempting fewer than 40 passes. Don't think such metrics are lost on Sean McDermott. 

 

We can add a 1-0 2025 record in games where Allen attempts 40+ passes, but that brings the franchise only to a .500 record over the past 4+ seasons when they are extremely pass-heavy. (Incorporating Allen's first 3 seasons adds a 5-4 record in such games, so the pattern is fairly consistent throughout.) 

 

No surprise that in the playoffs, the Bills/Allen have NEVER won when attempting 40+ passes (0-3), and are 7-3 otherwise. 

 

**this all potentially crushes my desire to see the Bills come out each week with extreme aggression, offensively (instead of intentional balance and control)

 

Agree we need more balance, but possibly one of the reasons we lose when JA throws 40, is that we are behind and having to play catchup.

 

Against the Ravens, he threw 21 passes in JUST the 4th quarter because we were down by 2+ scores

[Don Otreply]

11 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

This makes me sad. It just confirms that what I thought was true: some terrible conservative playcalling by Brady in the 1st half.

It wasn’t so much terrible, as overly conservative, but we fans are kinda knee jerk about how games develop, we are the kings of hindsight…, 

[billsfan89]

13 hours ago, Richard Noggin said:

What if they tried starting the game (against elite teams especially) with that same urgency and aggression? That's my biggest complaint. Our defense isn't good enough most of the time against the best offenses, but could be with more help (scoring) to make those offenses more one-dimensional. 

This is the Happy Gilmore logic of I’m just gonna try to get a hole in one on every hole logic. 

[JP51]

11 hours ago, thurst44 said:

He had 6 catches for 61 yards in this game we're talking about right now.

Yeah I am not sure where they were going with that... ball got spread around just fine... 9 individual receivers  Palmer with 9 targets went 6 for 61...  so if that is the average over a season 

 

153 targets for 102 receptions and 1037 yards...  so, I am not really sure what the poster is on about... 

[GoBills808]

40 minutes ago, Cheektowaga Chad said:

The bills scored 19 points through 3 quarters, that is as many or more than 18ish teams scored in their entire game

 

The offense was perfectly fine through three quarters 

I tend to agree

 

The issue as always is- can you reliably control the ball+clock w supporting cast as currently constructed AND unreliable defense? The margins are too thin imo

 

It doesn't feel sustainable at all in terms of a deep playoff run

[JP51]

18 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

I tend to agree

 

The issue as always is- can you reliably control the ball+clock w supporting cast as currently constructed AND unreliable defense? The margins are too thin imo

 

It doesn't feel sustainable at all in terms of a deep playoff run

If Josh has to do this every week... no chance its sustainable... that was an epic win... I dont think we can count on 20 epic wins on the complete back of 17. Offense is fine and will score you enough if you had a c to c minus defense... and F to D minus defense... not gonna work... 

[BuffaloBillyG]

1 hour ago, Goin Breakdown said:

And then on the flip side I feel like there's those games where we are so far ahead and then let teams squeak back into it. I know we have a huge point differential since like 2020, but once in a while I feel like we let the foot off the gas. 

At some points when you are far ahead, it's actually a smart plan to go from all gas no breaks to more conservative run the clock down mentality. It's actually a sound thought process... albeit not as fun for fans to watch.

Edited September 11 by BuffaloBillyG

[Dafan]

22 minutes ago, JP51 said:

If Josh has to do this every week... no chance its sustainable... that was an epic win... I dont think we can count on 20 epic wins on the complete back of 17. Offense is fine and will score you enough if you had a c to c minus defense... and F to D minus defense... not gonna work... 

We are not playing Ravens every week.  They are literally a team built to beat the Bills with Henry and Lamar.

[Livinginthepast]

Brady has to stop being scared of unleashing Josh to get the ball downfield. I'm sick of these hitch screens that go nowhere (or backwards). He also has to introduce more motion and misdirection in the offense. We need some trickery in this offense. Dabol was able to maximize the offense by doing this, then Dorsey threw that all away. Brady is still acting like a new young driver with his dad's corvette, occasionally tapping the gas but a bit scared to go full throttle. He also seems scared to trust the offense with a complicated play (as if they are rookies). Time for that to stop.

[ddaryl]

12 hours ago, Herc11 said:

That first drive was beautiful. The pass was working mixed with run. I know it's scripted plays, but then Brady crapped the bed on the next two possessions and allowed the Ravens to jump out on top. Really hope Brady looks at the play calling that stalled those drives and makes some adjustments.

how do know whats working and not unless you try some stuff. Obviously they made adjustments but they needed to see some stuff before they can make the changes.

 

[DrDawkinstein]

44 minutes ago, BuffaloBillyG said:

At some points when you are far ahead, it's actually a smart plan to go from all gas no breaks to more conservative run the clock down mentality. It's actually a sound thought process... albeit not as fun for fans to watch.

 

Sure, but imo that shouldnt be until you are up by at least 21-28 pts and no earlier than the start of the 4th quarter.

 

We've unfortunately seen McD take his foot off the gas as early as the 1st half in some games, and certainly not up by 28 points.

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

14 hours ago, T.E. said:

Sorry, Josh, I know you signed here to be a targeted WR with a top-flight QB, but our coach wants to mirror the offense of the Kordell Stewart-era Pittsburgh Steelers. Enjoy your three targets a week, though!

Seemed to be the kind of plays the ravens were leaving open most of the game though tbh.  Felt like more execution issues early on offense to me than anything schematic…rewatching the game a couple times a lot more of those quick at/around the LOS plays either worked or should’ve worked than I initially thought.  The ravens just shut a lot of them down with insane tackling early which seemed to gas them out down the stretch 

 

I think the book on Josh is to force him to take that underneath stuff and hope he gets as impatient as his fans do haha..  if the ravens weren’t as good as they were early against the short yardage runs early I think we would’ve scored 50+

Edited September 11 by Generic_Bills_Fan

[Dan]

1 hour ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Sure, but imo that shouldnt be until you are up by at least 21-28 pts and no earlier than the start of the 4th quarter.

 

We've unfortunately seen McD take his foot off the gas as early as the 1st half in some games, and certainly not up by 28 points.

You do realize how rare that is to be up by 3 or 4 touchdowns?    
 

I do think some expectations are out of alignment with the reality of our current plane of existence.     Has anyone considered, that maybe Shakir’s statement was just a bit tongue in cheek given where they were in the game?