Is there an NFL team with a weaker WR group than the Bills?

[Don Otreply]

Most points scored in a season, in Bills history, 

something around eight games scoring thirty or more points, 

The team has a very good offense, and a not so good defense, hoping the draft helps that situation, 

The OP is so obviously confused, 

[HappyDays]

2 hours ago, JESSEFEFFER said:

We had the same debate starting last summer going through to end of the preseason in the mega, 170 page "I'm really starting to love this WR room. We quietly got better" thread.

 

The forgotten outcome of that thread is that after week 5 just about every person on this board, including the person who started that thread, agreed that adding a WR was a necessary move. Beane himself has defend the Cooper trade by pointing out our offense scored 7 more PPG with him in the lineup. They are hoping that Palmer can replace or improve on what Cooper brought to the offense and that Coleman takes a big step forward in his development.

[VW82]

5 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

The forgotten outcome of that thread is that after week 5 just about every person on this board, including the person who started that thread, agreed that adding a WR was a necessary move. Beane himself has defend the Cooper trade by pointing out our offense scored 7 more PPG with him in the lineup. They are hoping that Palmer can replace or improve on what Cooper brought to the offense and that Coleman takes a big step forward in his development.

 

...and that Curtis Samuel and Dalton Kincaid are actually healthy this year. Lots went wrong before we made that Cooper trade. 

[Mikey152]

2 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

My goodness, it’s not complicated. The offense being good doesn’t mean every position group is good. The same goes for the defense. You can be a great defense and have bad LBs. I’m not sure what you’re trying to prove because you aren’t doing a very good job articulating it. The Super Bowl Champs have 2 of the top 12 paid WRs. A top _____ isn’t required to have a top offense or defense. That’s the entire point I’ve been trying to make. With that being said, the Bills have a top offense without having good receivers. 

 

I don't think you are making the point you think you are making.

 

If the Bills have a top offense AND poor receivers, it would stand to reason that you don't need good receivers to have a good offense, no? If that is true, then why are you so bent out of shape about a 4th round speed receiver?

 

Clearly the Bills felt like the player they selected was the better player. They also have proven that they didn't have a need because their offense was a top offense. So what are we arguing about here?  They have a good offense, so they don't need a WR.  So tell me how this receiver you want is better than the DT they took, player for player.

 

Flat out, your logic is circular.

 

 

[Kirby Jackson]

33 minutes ago, Mikey152 said:

 

I don't think you are making the point you think you are making.

 

If the Bills have a top offense AND poor receivers, it would stand to reason that you don't need good receivers to have a good offense, no? If that is true, then why are you so bent out of shape about a 4th round speed receiver?

 

Clearly the Bills felt like the player they selected was the better player. They also have proven that they didn't have a need because their offense was a top offense. So what are we arguing about here?  They have a good offense, so they don't need a WR.  So tell me how this receiver you want is better than the DT they took, player for player.

 

Flat out, your logic is circular.

 

 

Omg, this is Groundhog Day. You do not need good receivers to have a good offense. If you have better receivers than you currently have, your offense will be better. 
 

In terms of a 4th round speed receiver, I’ll go through it for the 51st time because clearly it is still missing for some people. The Bills saw the 3rd least 2 deep last year. That was the case with Josh Allen as the QB which is crazy. That means, the Bills offense faces more defensive players, closer to the line of scrimmage than all but 2 teams. Their strength is getting the ball into playmakers hands quickly. When the defense crowds that space it is tougher for room to operate for the backs and Shakir. If the safeties were deep, Kincaid would have more space in the middle along with Shakir and Samuel. Getting a guy that plays 15-20 snaps and can raise the amount of 2 deep teams play, space will be created for the Bills playmakers. If you still can’t understand it, I’ll ask that someone else try laying it out for you. The overwhelming majority of the board understands this. That doesn’t even get to the potential for chunk plays or PI down the field. Big plays are important too.

[BADOLBILZ]

7 hours ago, zevo said:

I couldn't agree more. He is incredible and we are blessed to have him. But I need elevation in that moment. The great ones always do.

 

 

Josh Allen is my favorite Bills player ever and I think he's the best Bill ever.

 

But what he has in common with the guys directly behind him on that list is that none of them performed with anything resembling regularity at their highest level in the clutch.    Thurman had one great SB out of 4.   Kelly was 0-4.   Ditto for the other HOF'ers from that team Bruce and Andre.  OJ had one playoff game as a Bill and had an awful performance(14 carries for 49 yards). 

 

Josh Allen has been really prolific in wildcard games against clearly inferior opponents(except the one loss, to Houston).   None of those teams were SB contenders.  That record against a tired Phil Rivers, Mack Jones, Skylar Thompson, Mason Rudolph and rookie Bo Nix has made Allen statistically one of the more efficient playoff QB's ever.   Which really only serves to confuse Bills fans.  

 

We need to keep in mind that Brady and Mahomes didn't/don't play in those games every year like JA17 does.    

 

So after 5 final game flameouts, including two horrible full game performances......and two less than stellar performances in both of his divisional round wins versus Baltimore.........I think it's myopic to think that Josh Allen doesn't need high end skill talent around him on offense.

 

Tom Brady wasn't perfect,  he had the ball late in a couple of SB losses and didn't cash in(Eagles and Giants).   He had the ball late in the other Giants loss where Wes Welker let one go thru his hands like Kincaid did in January......that still counts as a failure to finish.    But Brady's career was loaded with big playoff game heroics.   Often bailing out NE defense's that seemed to get figured out and fall apart in the second half.  

 

Brady was like 75%+ money in divisional, CG and SB's.  

 

Allen was in his bag in just 1 of 7 of those types of games.   The two should not be compared. 

[Mikey152]

27 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Omg, this is Groundhog Day. You do not need good receivers to have a good offense. If you have better receivers than you currently have, your offense will be better. 
 

In terms of a 4th round speed receiver, I’ll go through it for the 51st time because clearly it is still missing for some people. The Bills saw the 3rd least 2 deep last year. That was the case with Josh Allen as the QB which is crazy. That means, the Bills offense faces more defensive players, closer to the line of scrimmage than all but 2 teams. Their strength is getting the ball into playmakers hands quickly. When the defense crowds that space it is tougher for room to operate for the backs and Shakir. If the safeties were deep, Kincaid would have more space in the middle along with Shakir and Samuel. Getting a guy that plays 15-20 snaps and can raise the amount of 2 deep teams play, space will be created for the Bills playmakers. If you still can’t understand it, I’ll ask that someone else try laying it out for you. The overwhelming majority of the board understands this. That doesn’t even get to the potential for chunk plays or PI down the field. Big plays are important too.

Ok, two things...

 

First, better receivers are only one part of the equation...they don't just materialize. You need to sign, trade for or draft them. Which means you aren't signing, trading or drafting other positions. So signing better receivers only means you are signing better receivers...it doesn't automatically make your offense or your team better. I mean, we already showed how there isn't a direct correlation between receiver talent and offensive production and team record, right? That doesn't even touch the fact that this WR room is "bad" at the top...not the bottom. The odds that a 4th Rd wr would have enough of an impact to change the way a defense plays against us or help us break team records is laughably naive.

 

Second, maybe you aren't watching the same games I am.  Because the reason our offense plays the way it does isn't just on the receivers...MVS is clearly a deep threat and we cut him, for example.

 

We clearly made a move to limit turnovers and possess the ball. I mean, we played a 6th offensive lineman more than ay team in the league....who is playing two deep against that?  We also seem to think that because he has a strong arm JA is an awesome deep ball QB...but he isn't. It might be his biggest weakness. So they chose to be efficient, get big plays with YAC, and protect the ball and their QB and Josh won MVP and they scored the most point they EVER HAVE.

 

I get it...you think they CAN BE EVEN BETTER if only they had a guy that can blow the top off the defense...newsflash:  the bills don't agree and haven't since Dorsey left. They certainly don't think it is more important than improving their defense and retaining key contributors. So far, the proof they are right is an all-time high in offensive production and an MVP for their QB.  The proof that you are right is fantasy stats.

Edited 2 hours ago by Mikey152

[Mikie2times]

25 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Josh Allen is my favorite Bills player ever and I think he's the best Bill ever.

 

But what he has in common with the guys directly behind him on that list is that none of them performed with anything resembling regularity at their highest level in the clutch.    Thurman had one great SB out of 4.   Kelly was 0-4.   Ditto for the other HOF'ers from that team Bruce and Andre.  OJ had one playoff game as a Bill and had an awful performance(14 carries for 49 yards). 

 

Josh Allen has been really prolific in wildcard games against clearly inferior opponents(except the one loss, to Houston).   None of those teams were SB contenders.  That record against a tired Phil Rivers, Mack Jones, Skylar Thompson, Mason Rudolph and rookie Bo Nix has made Allen statistically one of the more efficient playoff QB's ever.   Which really only serves to confuse Bills fans.  

 

We need to keep in mind that Brady and Mahomes didn't/don't play in those games every year like JA17 does.    

 

So after 5 final game flameouts, including two horrible full game performances......and two less than stellar performances in both of his divisional round wins versus Baltimore.........I think it's myopic to think that Josh Allen doesn't need high end skill talent around him on offense.

 

Tom Brady wasn't perfect,  he had the ball late in a couple of SB losses and didn't cash in(Eagles and Giants).   He had the ball late in the other Giants loss where Wes Welker let one go thru his hands like Kincaid did in January......that still counts as a failure to finish.    But Brady's career was loaded with big playoff game heroics.   Often bailing out NE defense's that seemed to get figured out and fall apart in the second half.  

 

Brady was like 75%+ money in divisional, CG and SB's.  

 

Allen was in his bag in just 1 of 7 of those types of games.   The two should not be compared. 

Has the offense performed exceptionally in the divisional round or later? I would say largely, no. 
 

Has the offense performed in the most critical moments in these games? I would say certainly, no.

 

Has the offense been let down by skill position players in these moments? I would say 100% yes. 
 

So when all you hear is we scored 30+ so many games in a row, all I hear is ya, but we can’t seem to be that dynamic when it matters most. The defense is CERTAINLY the biggest driver, but the perception that the offense doesn’t need help because it’s so prolific in most spots (outside the ones that matter most) is similar to me as the people that value our AFC East championships more than a Lombardi. With where this team is additions should be viewed as far as taking the next step. Similar to how the Rams behaved prior to the Super Bowl they won. 

[Kirby Jackson]

27 minutes ago, Mikey152 said:

Ok, two things...

 

First, better receivers are only one part of the equation...they don't just materialize. You need to sign, trade for or draft them. Which means you aren't signing, trading or drafting other positions. So signing better receivers only means you are signing better receivers...it doesn't automatically make your offense or your team better. I mean, we already showed how there isn't a direct correlation between receiver talent and offensive production and team record, right? That doesn't even touch the fact that this WR room is "bad" at the top...not the bottom. The odds that a 4th Rd wr would have enough of an impact to change the way a defense plays against us or help us break team records is laughably naive.

 

Second, maybe you aren't watching the same games I am.  Because the reason our offense plays the way it does isn't just on the receivers...MVS is clearly a deep threat and we cut him, for example.

 

We clearly made a move to limit turnovers and possess the ball. I mean, we played a 6th offensive lineman more than ay team in the league....who is playing two deep against that?  We also seem to think that because he has a strong arm JA is an awesome deep ball QB...but he isn't. It might be his biggest weakness. So they chose to be efficient, get big plays with YAC, and protect the ball and their QB and Josh won MVP and they scored the most point they EVER HAVE.

 

I get it...you think they CAN BE EVEN BETTER if only they had a guy that can blow the top off the defense...newsflash:  the bills don't agree and haven't since Dorsey left. They certainly don't think it is more important than improving their defense and retaining key contributors. So far, the proof they are right is an all-time high in offensive production and an MVP for their QB.  The proof that you are right is fantasy stats.

Lol, both Beane AND McDermott said after the year that they needed to be able to stretch the field vertically. Maybe you’re listening to different press conferences than I am where they say, “I was just kidding when I said that in the last press conference.” 
 

The Bills were +24 in turnover differential. Only one other team was more than +12. That giant turnover margin is likely to regress. The historic offense benefited from historically low negative plays. Again, this doesn’t happen in a vacuum.

 

To be clear, I think that a field strecther was more important than competition for Cam Lewis, Reggie Gilliam and J’Marcus Ingram. I think that the delta from those guys to Hancock, Hawes and Strong is less impactful than someone like Arian Smith. Do YOU agree or disagree?

 

To be clear, for the 52nd time, I do not think a 4th round WR would be the difference in the Bills going 7-10 or 14-3. I don’t think that competition for Cam Lewis does that either. I do believe that Arian Smith (for example) is more likely to make a play impacting a playoff game vs. KC or Philly that could be important. That is my focus. When you’re 1 or 2 plays away, I’m looking for the guys that are capable of making 1 or 2 plays to put them over the top. I’m not worried about what I’ll have to do if J’Marcus Ingram plays some snaps in 3 games instead of Dorian Strong. I like Strong (for example) but don’t think that delta impacts wins or losses one iota. Hope that clears it up.

 

@LEBills I’ve reached my tap out point as well. 🤣🤣

Edited 2 hours ago by Kirby Jackson

[ColoradoBills]

yes!

[Warriorspikes51]

On paper it’s underwhelming

 

but during games there’s a fairly decent range of skill sets

 

I’d say average to above average

[Kirby Jackson]

19 minutes ago, Warriorspikes51 said:

On paper it’s underwhelming

 

but during games there’s a fairly decent range of skill sets

 

I’d say average to above average

You’d say above average? You’d say, that there are 16 teams that have a worse WR room? I’d be interested to see the 16. I came up with Raiders and then there are 3 or 4 more in the same area. 

Edited 1 hour ago by Kirby Jackson

[Success]

I'd put us around the 18-22 range. Obviously not great, but far from the worst.

 

And fine w/ a great running game and top tier D.

 

[BillsFanForever19]

3 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

The forgotten outcome of that thread is that after week 5 just about every person on this board, including the person who started that thread, agreed that adding a WR was a necessary move. Beane himself has defend the Cooper trade by pointing out our offense scored 7 more PPG with him in the lineup. They are hoping that Palmer can replace or improve on what Cooper brought to the offense and that Coleman takes a big step forward in his development.

 

And that Dalton Kincaid takes a step forward (or at least plays more like Year 1 than Year 2). And that Curtis Samuel can stay healthy and provide more than he did last season.

 

That's a lot of "if's" that they're seemingly relying on instead of just hoping for. The good news is there's so many "if's" there, it's probably unlikely that none of them happen. Even one would be an improvement over last year. But if none of them happen.... whoo boy. We're in trouble.

[ColoradoBills]

3 minutes ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

That's a lot of "if's" that they're seemingly relying on instead of just hoping for. The good news is there's so many "if's" there, it's probably unlikely that none of them happen. Even one would be an improvement over last year. But if none of them happen.... whoo boy. We're in trouble.

 

But if all of them happen they are golden.

 

[Success]

3 minutes ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

And that Dalton Kincaid takes a step forward (or at least plays more like Year 1 than Year 2). And that Curtis Samuel can stay healthy and provide more than he did last season.

 

That's a lot of "if's" that they're seemingly relying on instead of just hoping for. The good news is there's so many "if's" there, it's probably unlikely that none of them happen. Even one would be an improvement over last year. But if none of them happen.... whoo boy. We're in trouble.

 

I think a healthy Samuel being better is a given.  Kincaid is the big question mark. I mean, we've kind of seen it - but it hasn't translated.

 

There are always midseason trades!

 

[BananaB]

13 minutes ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

And that Dalton Kincaid takes a step forward (or at least plays more like Year 1 than Year 2). And that Curtis Samuel can stay healthy and provide more than he did last season.

 

That's a lot of "if's" that they're seemingly relying on instead of just hoping for. The good news is there's so many "if's" there, it's probably unlikely that none of them happen. Even one would be an improvement over last year. But if none of them happen.... whoo boy. We're in trouble.

In order for Kincaid to play more Knox gotta be injured. Thats why he did so good his rookie season. 

[BADOLBILZ]

9 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yea it is also a numbers point for me. If he can start stacking 800+ yard seasons together then fine, I'm willing to bump him up to a WR2 definition despite his limitations anywhere but the slot. At the moment in his two years starting he has a 600 yard season and an 800 yard season. If he settles more at the 2024 end of that (and I think he can), fine, happy to call him a WR2. 

 

And before I get the pile on I will just remind everyone that my yards and touchdowns prediction for Shakir in 2024 was out by one single yard. I had 820 and 4. I've got a good handle on who he is. 

 

 

Yeah I think you can be a WR2 on the boundary with those bulk numbers(or not, see Gabe averaging 800 his last two in Buffalo and being a WR3 quality).

 

But from the slot you have to handicap it.    There is a lot of easy production to be had from the slot with the free releases and the fact that a certain amount of teams will always keep a nickel quality defender on the slot.  

 

Ideally, you have the talent outside to allow you to put a position versatile WR like prime Diggs or Kupp in the slot and give them those free releases and watch them pile up more nearly twice what a guy like Shakir can.     

[Mikie2times]

4 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

The forgotten outcome of that thread is that after week 5 just about every person on this board, including the person who started that thread, agreed that adding a WR was a necessary move. Beane himself has defend the Cooper trade by pointing out our offense scored 7 more PPG with him in the lineup. They are hoping that Palmer can replace or improve on what Cooper brought to the offense and that Coleman takes a big step forward in his development.

100%, a lot has been debated in this thread and I’m not going to rehash those points. But Buffalo will essentially enter the year saying the exact same thing as they did last year. Same level of confidence. Same debates by the same posters. Then low and behold, 180 mid season.
 

Beane is a good dude, that much is clear. But people act like his every move is meticulously planned and nearly always correct. That he’s a pure straight shooter at all times. Maybe that is always his intention, but we have gone from “spread the ball” to oh crap we need somebody to stretch the defense. To I know Amari didn’t deliver the stats we wanted, but look how well we performed. To I think we need a field stretcher. To I love the WR room we have. It’s been fairly contradictory IMO. Enough for me to question if we REALLY know what we are doing at the position or just backing into justifications.  

Edited 56 minutes ago by Mikie2times