What's the point of this team's philosophy?

[GoBills808]

6 hours ago, Pine Barrens Mafia said:

You have a QB that's a Maserati. He's built for bombs away. But instead of building your offense for that, you build it for plodding, 10 yards at a time max, 10 minute drive offense. So I ask, what is the point?

 

What's the point of having a guy who's designed by nature to bomb the football deep and whose weakness is dink and dunk stuck in an offensive scheme that is built to do just that?

 

Why not offload him for someone who's better suited for that kind of thing if you refuse to play to his strengths? That's what I can't wrap my head around. It makes no sense.

the answer imo is that either the QB or the OC (HC if he's an offensive guy) defines the offense

 

thus far Allen is and has been several orders of magnitude a better QB than whatever OC we've hired. that's why there's never been a consistent philosophy or team building strategy on offense...doesn't matter if it's Daboll/Dorsey/Brady, they add their own unique perspective but the focus is still on maximizing Allen's physical abilities because his talent is so overwhelming superior to their own.

[Alphadawg7]

6 hours ago, Pine Barrens Mafia said:

You have a QB that's a Maserati. He's built for bombs away. But instead of building your offense for that, you build it for plodding, 10 yards at a time max, 10 minute drive offense. So I ask, what is the point?

 

What's the point of having a guy who's designed by nature to bomb the football deep and whose weakness is dink and dunk stuck in an offensive scheme that is built to do just that?

 

Why not offload him for someone who's better suited for that kind of thing if you refuse to play to his strengths? That's what I can't wrap my head around. It makes no sense.

 

Hmmmm...maybe because his deep ball in his least accurate pass?  Maybe because bombs are a tiny part of a game, if that.  Maybe because we play outdoors in a bad weather stadium where late in the season and playoffs "bombing it" isn't a realistic game plan.  

 

Or...more importantly...maybe (and really certainly given Beane has even said as much) because this team has seen other teams be more physical and tough in the postseason allowing them to make those extra plays or two than we have because we have been too soft, tried to be to high octane, etc.  

 

Some of you blow my mind.  Hey...lets keep doing what doesn't work.  You say we have the this incredible QB, but then you guys also say he can only succeed if he has the best collection of weapons the NFL has ever seen.  Its so stupidly contradictory that I can't help but laugh when I see people regurgitate this nonsense over and over again.

 

Meanwhile, the fastest offense in NFL history (Miami) can't even beat a .500 team, can't win their division with a 4 game lead and 5 games to go, and can't win a playoff game despite MVP candidates at both WR and QB.  Why is that?  Because you WIN IN THE TRENCHES...you don't win with a track team.  You win when you play good, physical, smart football.  

 

Yes, also having speed to go with it is great.  But it is not the end all be all.  

 

PS:  We are NOT a slow team.  Shakir runs a 4.4 forty, Samuel a 4.3, Kincaid is a mismatch at TE, and Cook is an explosive RB both as a rusher and receiver.  Not to mention maybe the most dangerous QB while running the NFL has ever seen who is deceptively fast and powerful. This concept we have no speed or explosion is so inaccurate it baffles me if any of you saying we don't have any speed even know anyone on this roster outside of Diggs and Allen.  And as far as Coleman goes, fastest gauntlet of anyone...the test that is MUCH more indicative of game play speed.  He may not blow by corners, be has burst, athleticism, and acceleration that most guys his size don't have to go with a huge catch radius and great hands who is a massive redzone weapon too.

 

PPS:  Guess where you score more TD's...redzone or bombs?  Don't bother looking it up, the answer is blatantly obvious. 

Edited April 29 by Alphadawg7

[hondo in seattle]

The best laid schemes of mice and men are often thwarted.  I don't think the offense we've seen from the Bills is exactly what Beane intended when he put the roster together.  I think some of his player acquisitions have been disappointments to him. 

 

And Beane is the GM, not the OC.  I believe that there have been times when Beane has thought Dorsey or Brady has underutilized the tools provided.  

 

While the OL was better last year, I do wonder why Beane hasn't made the OL a bigger priority.  When you have a highly talented - and compensated - QB, you would think acquiring a skilled bodyguard would be critically important.  

[SoTier]

51 minutes ago, Pine Barrens Mafia said:

You're right. Waiting for a title for forty years is really impetuous and lacking in patience

 

 

Cry me a river.  I've been a Bills fan for 61 years, which is most likely longer than you've been alive.    The Bills failed to make the playoffs in 37 of those years.  They had 31 losing seasons, including 5 seasons with only 1 or 2 wins.  In the last 40 years the Bills have never been as bad as they were in the 1970s and 1980s, although the later years of the Drought under Russ Brandon and Dick Jauron came close. 

 

Because you're unhappy because the Bills haven't advanced to the Super Bowl in the last few years, you're throwing a hissy fit.  Guess what, it could be a whole lot worse.  You could be a Jests fan.   To quote Mick Jagger, "you can't always get what you want". 

[SoTier]

3 hours ago, BananaB said:

With  the majority of the resources going to D over the years this should not be a problem. Especially when you have a defensive minded coach. 

 

Actually, it can easily be a problem for any team.   At the end of the 2024 SB, the Chiefs' D was gassed and barely summoned up the energy for the next play.

[harmonkillebrew]

25 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

Cry me a river.  I've been a Bills fan for 61 years, which is most likely longer than you've been alive.    The Bills failed to make the playoffs in 37 of those years.  They had 31 losing seasons, including 5 seasons with only 1 or 2 wins.  In the last 40 years the Bills have never been as bad as they were in the 1970s and 1980s, although the later years of the Drought under Russ Brandon and Dick Jauron came close. 

 

Because you're unhappy because the Bills haven't advanced to the Super Bowl in the last few years, you're throwing a hissy fit.  Guess what, it could be a whole lot worse.  You could be a Jests fan.   To quote Mick Jagger, "you can't always get what you want". 

I've been a Bills fan a LONG time too. I've suffered through a lot.  What gets me impatient is that we have the answer at QB. Josh is so frigging good. Better than Kelly, imho.  What is holding us back is coaching and decision-making. I appreciate where Beane/McD got us to. Forever grateful. But I want more and I don't think they have it. 

[SoTier]

2 minutes ago, harmonkillebrew said:

I've been a Bills fan a LONG time too. I've suffered through a lot.  What gets me impatient is that we have the answer at QB. Josh is so frigging good. Better than Kelly, imho.  What is holding us back is coaching and decision-making. I appreciate where Beane/McD got us to. Forever grateful. But I want more and I don't think they have it. 

 

 

 

[PBF81]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

To be clear I am not disputing what you say about production. I am adding one caveat to it that regardless of who the OC is we need Josh to have a better year than 2023. But my initial response was to your point on creativity. I think the only time I have actually agreed that the problem was a lack of creativity was under Dorsey. I think at one point just before he was fired we were running the 2nd least pre-snap motion in the league and were the most predictable in our personnel groupings v run / pass split. It was vanilla offense that said "our guys are better than your guys" and we don't have an offense with the talent level to do that. 

 

Yeah, I know.  I was just clarifying for others.  

 

It's definitely going to be an interesting season, eh.  

 

 

[NewEra]

2 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Because people want to either be proven right or prove others wrong. But you can’t prove anything until the games are played so there’s a lot of screaming.

 

 

And unless your team wins the Super Bowl…..the coach and GM suck

[Chicken Boo]

I agree wholeheartedly, but at this point I think it's apparent that nothing is going to change.  

 

As long as McBeane is running the show, this is the best effort you're going to get to surround Josh with what he needs.  

 

If Coleman doesn't develop into something reminiscent of Keenan Allen or Hopkins, Josh's prime will officially have been wasted.  

[DapperCam]

I kind of agree, but the NFL defenses adapted to bombs away. Mahomes’ last huge season was the last year NFL defenses let that happen.

 

Now they take away everything deep, and dare you to dink and dunk them. It’s a pretty sound strategy vs a great QB.

[Captain Hindsight]

We don't throw long as much anymore and OP wants to trade Allen for Trent Edwards 

[Orlando Tim]

8 hours ago, Pine Barrens Mafia said:

You have a QB that's a Maserati. He's built for bombs away. But instead of building your offense for that, you build it for plodding, 10 yards at a time max, 10 minute drive offense. So I ask, what is the point?

 

What's the point of having a guy who's designed by nature to bomb the football deep and whose weakness is dink and dunk stuck in an offensive scheme that is built to do just that?

 

Why not offload him for someone who's better suited for that kind of thing if you refuse to play to his strengths? That's what I can't wrap my head around. It makes no sense.

My question is what successful team runs an offense this way? I don't mean just now but ever? If I know what team you want to emulate I will at least understand where you are coming from.

[PBF81]

2 hours ago, dave mcbride said:

If you're going to evaluate the Bills offense under Brady and not include the two playoff games, you're doing it wrong, simply put. They HAVE to be included for the simple reason that they're the most important games! And they're against playoff teams! Allen had 7 total TDs and zero turnovers in those two games and the Bills averaged 368 yards and 27.5 points yards despite the kicker missing 3 FGs. 

 

I considered that, but I was talking about regular season.  In the playoffs Allen typically shines and our D craps out. 

 

But since you brought it up, our playoff game vs. Pittsburgh and a second-rate QB was hardly great, and their D in that game was without Watt, which is like our O being w/o Allen.  

 

Either way, Allen's game vs. Pitt was very good but our D played poorly, again.  Pitt played better than their season average against us in Yards, Passing Yards, and 1st-Downs.  So there's that.  

 

But in the KC game Allen played his worst playoff game since the 2019 & 2020 seasons, which feeds right into the argument that was made.  The only game worse after the 2020 season, Allen's breakout season, was the Cincy game last season.  

 

The KC game was all but entirely predicated upon Allen's 12 carries for 72 and 2 TDs amidst a very pedestrian passing effort.  Is that what we want from our offense typically.  (rhetorical)  

 

Factor those in if you like, but it makes little difference.  

 

 

[PBF81]

2 hours ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said:

I think the time of possession metric can be somewhat overrated...  However... in games against Jax, cincy, and Denver - Buffalo had substantial disadvantages on time of possession.  And those were games where our defense looked the most beaten. 

 

Either from inability to run the ball against the jaguars and bengals, to the turnover fest against denver, that was something that they prioritized under brady.  

 

Usually improvements on TOP are attributed to a few things though - 

• More effective run game
• Improved 3rd/4th down conversions
• Defensive stops/takeaways 

 

That's fair and a very good topic and point.  Our ToP stats under Brady were better than under Dorsey.  

 

Again however, that feeds into the points being made.  Under McD(efense) we're forcing ourselves into a ball-control running game mode, which is his definition of "complimentary football," but the question that rears its ugly head is whether or not that's what's best for our offense in getting it to score the most points and move the ball otherwise the most.  

 

Here's the thing, that may work well during the regular season in most games, but in the playoffs the better coaches are going to figure that out.  Cook e.g. had 36 carries for only 140 yards and an incredibly pedestrian 3.9 YPC average after averaging 5.0 during the season.  If not for Allen's rushing the Steelers playoff game goes to the wire and we lose more substantially vs. the Chiefs.  

 

Allen, not Cook, was the reason for our postseason rushing success. 

 

Allen had 20 carries for 146 rushing yards and 3 rushing TDs.  ... again, contrasted with Cook's 36 for 140 and 0 TDs.  Cook didn't even do anything significant in the playoffs in the receiving game with 8 catches for 26 yards with only one of those receptions going for a 1st-Down.  Not to discount that, but it's not the same way we succeeded under Brady during the regular season generally speaking.  

 

At the end of the day, our staff has no solutions other than how to get mere average production from the offensive support players.  Hence the overreliance upon Allen for the entirety of our success.  

 

 

[dave mcbride]

49 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

I considered that, but I was talking about regular season.  In the playoffs Allen typically shines and our D craps out. 

 

But since you brought it up, our playoff game vs. Pittsburgh and a second-rate QB was hardly great, and their D in that game was without Watt, which is like our O being w/o Allen.  

 

Either way, Allen's game vs. Pitt was very good but our D played poorly, again.  Pitt played better than their season average against us in Yards, Passing Yards, and 1st-Downs.  So there's that.  

 

But in the KC game Allen played his worst playoff game since the 2019 & 2020 seasons, which feeds right into the argument that was made.  The only game worse after the 2020 season, Allen's breakout season, was the Cincy game last season.  

 

The KC game was all but entirely predicated upon Allen's 12 carries for 72 and 2 TDs amidst a very pedestrian passing effort.  Is that what we want from our offense typically.  (rhetorical)  

 

Factor those in if you like, but it makes little difference.  

 

 

It is my understanding that 12 carries for 72 yards and two TDs should be factored into any evaluation. He was great in that game. Also, bringing up the defense is irrelevant because it's not the subject of the discussion. Regardless, leaving out the most important games because of some arbitrary threshold doesn't really make sense.

[Max Fischer]

Miami is a bombs-away offense and gets continually shut down against playoff-caliber defenses.  

[BananaB]

1 hour ago, PBF81 said:

 

I considered that, but I was talking about regular season.  In the playoffs Allen typically shines and our D craps out. 

 

But since you brought it up, our playoff game vs. Pittsburgh and a second-rate QB was hardly great, and their D in that game was without Watt, which is like our O being w/o Allen.  

 

Either way, Allen's game vs. Pitt was very good but our D played poorly, again.  Pitt played better than their season average against us in Yards, Passing Yards, and 1st-Downs.  So there's that.  

 

But in the KC game Allen played his worst playoff game since the 2019 & 2020 seasons, which feeds right into the argument that was made.  The only game worse after the 2020 season, Allen's breakout season, was the Cincy game last season.  

 

The KC game was all but entirely predicated upon Allen's 12 carries for 72 and 2 TDs amidst a very pedestrian passing effort.  Is that what we want from our offense typically.  (rhetorical)  

 

Factor those in if you like, but it makes little difference.  

 

 

Can you say Allen’s passing effort was down during that game when WRs were dropping balls all over the field. I can count 3 big ones off the top of my head. And he did score the most points against KCs D throughout the playoffs which isn’t that bad. Problem was the D gave up the most against KC O through the playoffs

Edited April 29 by BananaB

[BananaB]

1 hour ago, SoTier said:

 

Actually, it can easily be a problem for any team.   At the end of the 2024 SB, the Chiefs' D was gassed and barely summoned up the energy for the next play.

Was it because KC was scoring to quickly? Because McD slowed Bills offense down after 1 drive against Bengals. Maybe he should figure out an answer to stopping them with our 11 defensive players instead of our 11 offensive players. 

[Bruffalo]

I think we'd all be sleeping a little easier if we got Josh another weapon, which I have to imagine they'll be evaluating post June 1 when they have some more cap available. 

It's not as dire as the OP is making it out to be. Coleman is a big unknown, but it's the guy Allen thought could best help him, so you've got to trust him on that.