Rd 2, Pick 33: WR Keon Coleman, Florida State

[NeverOutNick]

5 hours ago, KDIGGZ said:

Anyone see how fast the Texas receivers look at mini camp (Mitchell and Worthy)? Mitchell looks like an absolute steal. Pats doubled up at WR with Polk and Baker. Coleman wears discount yellow bubble jacket is the only headline I've seen so far out of Buffalo but we'll see.

 

 

 

I hate that we passed on him. He’s got superstar potential if his effort is there. Wonder if he made it to 60 if we would’ve taken him over “Dalton’s” buddy 

[No_Matter_What]

9 hours ago, GASabresIUFan said:

Beane has already said that money isn’t going to a WR.  I think he said in a recent interview that the June 1 money is going to used to sign the rookies and for operating cap space.  I think what he means by that is having cap room to add someone like Douglas in case of injury during the season.  
 

I’m pretty bullish on the plan.  I watched the Packers 4 1st and 2nd year receivers and 2 1st and 2nd years TEs put on a show last season and the Bills group of Kincaid, Knox, Coleman, Samuel, and Shakir are at least if not more talented.  If one of Claypool, Cephus or Hamler can beat out Hollins for the 4th WR job all the better.
 

 

I think the plan is to wait and see until trade deadline. If there is a need and opportunity, Beane will add WR1 through the trade then. If Seahawks are 3-5 at deadline or so Metcalf can be much cheaper than before the season.

 

Sounds like a good plan to me. Give our current WRs every snap you can until mid season, and the reevaluate.

[Rockinon]

16 hours ago, GASabresIUFan said:

Again, Coleman isn’t replacing Diggs.  He is a completely different kind of player.  Coleman is replacing Davis.  Samuel or Shakir will be replacing Diggs.  
 

Davis 6’2” 225

Coleman 6’3” 213

 

Diggs 6’0“ 191

Shakir 6’0” 190

Samuel 5’11” 195 

 

Samuel or Shakir on the outside is going to be one of the big questions in camp.  Shakir is know as an excellent route runner both inside and out.  Both guys have experience outside experience.  Shakir’s outside experience was primarily in college.  Samuel’s does have outside NFL experience but it’s about 26% of his snaps.  Samuel’s better speed might ultimately be the deciding factor.

 

You are trying to pigeon hole these guys into specific places. This offense requires all receivers to play both inside and out. For the most part, Coleman will be on the outside, yes, but that isn't all he'll be asked to do. Same with Shakir and Samuel. Their speed will be used to go deep and go to the outside.  There will be a lot of interchanging routes by all of these guys.  The notion that there must be a big X receiver who is also fast is greatly overblown. Many here seem to be of the opinion that this offense has no speed but that simply is not true. The combination of having all receivers playing outside and over the middle, while also mixing up speed and route running ability basically makes having that speedy big X a luxury that isn't really needed.

 

Another element that is overlooked is the running game and production from the TEs. It's going to be really interesting watching how the offense finds the right balance of run or pass. Short pass vs long pass. There are a lot of talented skill position players and the move away from the Josh to Diggs show late last season was the right decision. The offense needs to evolve.

[oldmanfan]

4 minutes ago, Rockinon said:

You are trying to pigeon hole these guys into specific places. This offense requires all receivers to play both inside and out. For the most part, Coleman will be on the outside, yes, but that isn't all he'll be asked to do. Same with Shakir and Samuel. Their speed will be used to go deep and go to the outside.  There will be a lot of interchanging routes by all of these guys.  The notion that there must be a big X receiver who is also fast is greatly overblown. Many here seem to be of the opinion that this offense has no speed but that simply is not true. The combination of having all receivers playing outside and over the middle, while also mixing up speed and route running ability basically makes having that speedy big X a luxury that isn't really needed.

 

Another element that is overlooked is the running game and production from the TEs. It's going to be really interesting watching how the offense finds the right balance of run or pass. Short pass vs long pass. There are a lot of talented skill position players and the move away from the Josh to Diggs show late last season was the right decision. The offense needs to evolve.

Thankfully one can hope Brady is more imaginative than the fan base.

[Maine-iac]

I apologize if I'm reposting stuff.  Saw this and thought it was interesting.  The guy isn't a Coleman fan and it's only mini camp but I like the video thought I'd share.

 

 

[ColoradoBills]

3 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

The kid is psyched to play with Josh, and has his own skill set.  He doesn’t have to be Diggs or Davis.  How about just being Coleman and see how that works?

 

Seems pretty reasonable to me.

[BADOLBILZ]

10 hours ago, GASabresIUFan said:

Your Ted Washington analogy doesn’t work with a WR group that has 2-4 players spread across the field on every play.

 

 Neither does your comment that our receivers are career complimentary players.  Samuel is a career starter.  Shakir is a 3rd year player who was finally moved into the game plan until week 7 and will be a 1st year starter.  Once Shakir got into the lineup he became a serious weapon with 600+ yards on only 45 targets (with 17 explosive plays).  This is 850 yards pace in a full seasons.  

 

Kincaid, once he was fully inserted also in week 7, also paced at around 850 yards.  Considering their youth to pigeon hole them as “complimentary” players is extremely premature. Kincaid is on his way to being our Kelce.  Last I looked Kelce was a player that demanded “extra attention.”   
 

 

 

 

1) Defensive lineman and receivers are the only players on the field who draw double teams.    4-5 of them run into a group of 6-7 opponents and try to make plays.   It's the closes direct comparison on the other side of the ball and I used the Ted Washington example because of how disastrous trying to "win in aggregate" turned out to be.   It obliterated their team's identity and set the drought in motion.    If you want examples of "in aggregate" not working BEYOND the Chiefs example that's incredibly easy.  Just look at the Jauron and Gailey era and first 2 years of McBeane WR corps'.   Almost every year they went to camp with the toughest decision being which WR to cut to get down to 6 or 7.   But if you don't have WR1 talents at the top of that chart it doesn't matter.    And if you have a really good corps you obviously don't need 6 or 7 of them.  

 

2) Starters can be complementary players.   None of them has been an NFL WR1 nor projects to be.   They don't draw doubles........they hope that someone else draws them and then that opens up the field for them.   Hence......complementary.    If they don't add a more accomplished WR between now and the opener this would be the first time in almost 40 years that the Bills haven't had a receiver on the roster who hadn't put up at least 900 yards in any NFL season.    That year Chris Burkett was coming off a season where he lead the NFL with 23 yards per reception.  It didn't scale up when defense's focused their attention on him the next season.   That's the task Shakir faces now in an elevated role with Diggs gone.   

 

3) Kelce is the greatest flex TE in NFL history.   I like Kincaid but there is a lot of room between GOAT and where Kincaid is.   And they are very different in that Kelce is a much more physical player but is also a remarkably skilled receiver.   Kincaid's game is all finesse at this point.   Would you say Keon Coleman is the next Jerry Rice or Terrell Owens?   Probably not, right?  But that's the kind of comp that comparing Kincaid to Kelce is just because of some broad similarities. 

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, oldmanfan said:

Thankfully one can hope Brady is more imaginative than the fan base.

 

Oh, as we get deeper into every offseason NFL fans get pretty imaginative.    Remember when much of TSW were buying the "Trent Edwards can run the no huddle" kool-aid after Russ Brandon acquired TO to pair with Lee Evans?    Nothing we'd seen on the field from Trentative should have suggested he was anywhere near capable of this.........but fans ate it up.  Looked good in mini-camp.  Turk Schonert was going to be the man with the plan at OC.

 

That whole process of rationalization took an enormous suspension of disbelief and vast amounts of imagination.    It wasn't reality.    The further we get from watching real football the more fans forget what works and what doesn't.  

 

I like Brady but you need the Jimmy's and Joe's once defense's adjust to "tactics".   Because they will.   The Dolphins ran up 70 points in a game against the Broncos early last season but eventually their limitations got exposed.   You gotta' have difference makers at key positions to survive and advance.    Bills are lacking that at WR.   They made up for that by running Allen almost 10x per game during the Brady stint as OC.   That's not a good long term strategy, IMO.

[oldmanfan]

4 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Oh, as we get deeper into every offseason NFL fans get pretty imaginative.    Remember when much of TSW were buying the "Trent Edwards can run the no huddle" kool-aid after Russ Brandon acquired TO to pair with Lee Evans?    Nothing we'd seen on the field from Trentative should have suggested he was anywhere near capable of this.........but fans ate it up.  Looked good in mini-camp.  Turk Schonert was going to be the man with the plan at OC.

 

That whole process of rationalization took an enormous suspension of disbelief and vast amounts of imagination.    It wasn't reality.    The further we get from watching real football the more fans forget what works and what doesn't.  

 

I like Brady but you need the Jimmy's and Joe's once defense's adjust to "tactics".   Because they will.   The Dolphins ran up 70 points in a game against the Broncos early last season but eventually their limitations got exposed.   You gotta' have difference makers at key positions to survive and advance.    Bills are lacking that at WR.   They made up for that by running Allen almost 10x per game during the Brady stint as OC.   That's not a good long term strategy, IMO.

No they are not lacking that at WR.  Or TE.  You say that simply to confirm your negativity.  Let’s see how they play.

[Maine-iac]

Unlike Edwards running the no huddle we've seen Brady's offense succeed and do it for the most part without much contribution from Diggs. So the hope that someone can replace that "production" is at least somewhat warranted.  Leading up to the Broncos loss Allen had rushed 7, 7, and 8 times in the previous 3 games.  We had already started selling out to win games and the pressure was already on for Allen to run before Brady took over.  This was happening with Diggs on the roster.  The difference maker we lack is a short yardage back.  A lot of Allen's runs he's virtually untouched or sneaks out of the pocket and only faces a defender or two down the field.  The repeated use in short yardage where he's taking big hits both on 3rd and 4th downs but also goal line is something I'd like to see get taken over by someone else.

[BADOLBILZ]

8 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

No they are not lacking that at WR.  Or TE.  You say that simply to confirm your negativity.  Let’s see how they play.

 

 

I'm sure you felt I was just "confirming my negativity" when I said that the Sheffield and Harty signings were bound to fail and that they would play to their career averages and NOT be magically elevated by Josh Allen.    That was a very unpopular opinion on TSW.   Because it was rooted in reality at a time of great "imagination".    And so it came to pass.  They were not elevated.   That's the way this works.    The Bills don't have a WR1 and it's uncertain if they have a WR2 or starting quality X for that matter.    They have a bottom third WR corps in the NFL.   That's a lot of burden on Josh Allen, IMO.

1 minute ago, Maine-iac said:

Unlike Edwards running the no huddle we've seen Brady's offense succeed and do it for the most part without much contribution from Diggs. So the hope that someone can replace that "production" is at least somewhat warranted.  Leading up to the Broncos loss Allen had rushed 7, 7, and 8 times in the previous 3 games.  We had already started selling out to win games and the pressure was already on for Allen to run before Brady took over.  This was happening with Diggs on the roster.  The difference maker we lack is a short yardage back.  A lot of Allen's runs he's virtually untouched or sneaks out of the pocket and only faces a defender or two down the field.  The repeated use in short yardage where he's taking big hits both on 3rd and 4th downs but also goal line is something I'd like to see get taken over by someone else.

 

 

We saw some version of Brady's offense operate over a half of a season.   We also saw that it required Josh Allen to run the ball almost 10x per game and tons of 10-12 play drives to succeed.   I'm not really down for seeing Allen run the ball 150 times.    I'd kinda' like him to be playing QB at a high level for a while.    

[Maine-iac]

9 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

We saw some version of Brady's offense operate over a half of a season.   We also saw that it required Josh Allen to run the ball almost 10x per game and tons of 10-12 play drives to succeed.   I'm not really down for seeing Allen run the ball 150 times.    I'd kinda' like him to be playing QB at a high level for a while.    

Already addressed that.  I agree with you.  As far as playing QB at a high level the Chiefs game might have been one of his best at taking the profit and keeping the offense on the field.  

[Mikie2times]

10 hours ago, KDIGGZ said:

40

 

4 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

They are bigger bodied WR that use their size as leverage to get the ball instead of speed and separation.  

They both hit their peak speed at 30 yards as opposed to 20 yards like your faster guys.  I don’t know Colemans 60 yard time but I would bet he would have a good time there.

Coleman is two inches taller, 3 inches more vertical, faster 10 yard sprint, way more athletic. Gabe was our deep threat. His hands sucked, limited route tree. He gave us no additional bump in the red zone. He wasn’t a jump ball or contested catch guy. 

 

They both have reasonably slower 40’s and are not short. The players have nothing else in common besides that. We haven’t had a Coleman in this offense yet it really in Buffalo since I can remember. Who would be a Buffalo comp to the guy even going back to the 90’s? I don’t think we have had one. 

[GoBills808]

51 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

 

Coleman is two inches taller, 3 inches more vertical, faster 10 yard sprint, way more athletic. Gabe was our deep threat. His hands sucked, limited route tree. He gave us no additional bump in the red zone. He wasn’t a jump ball or contested catch guy. 

 

They both have reasonably slower 40’s and are not short. The players have nothing else in common besides that. We haven’t had a Coleman in this offense yet it really in Buffalo since I can remember. Who would be a Buffalo comp to the guy even going back to the 90’s? I don’t think we have had one. 

Duke Williams 

[Mikie2times]

6 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Duke Williams 

Big body, contested catch guy, a little more like Keon than I would say Gabe is, but not an athlete compared to him. Keon has a 38 inch vertical compared to Dukes 30 inch vertical. That is a huge difference. Keon ran the 10 yard sprint at 1.54 which is above average for a guy his size while Williams was at 1.70. We haven't had a lot of bigger contested catch types here. Certainly none with this sort of athletic ability. 

[Bill from NYC]

16 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

"In aggregate" is literally just a re-phrasing of "with numbers".

 

Teams that are matchup nightmares have players who can't be neutralized by a single defender.    They require extra attention.  

 

Like Ted Washington serving as a one man run defense and creating one-on-one's for other Bills defenders.    When they cut him, the aggregate were no match at all for opposing running games.

 

Who do the Bills have in their WR corps that commands that extra attention?    What they have right now are a bunch of career complementary WR along with a raw  rookie in Coleman.  

  

So true. I remember Parcells saying that the reason he drafted Kevin Mawae was Ted Washington. Ted was a flat out GREAT player.

Edited May 12 by Bill from NYC

[NoSaint]

3 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

No they are not lacking that at WR.  Or TE.  You say that simply to confirm your negativity.  Let’s see how they play.

In the wide receiver room we are running out:

 

7th rookie off the board 

 

35th(?) paid veteran wr making less than our not good enough WR2 last year 

 

and last years wr3

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

40 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

In the wide receiver room we are running out:

 

7th rookie off the board 

 

35th(?) paid veteran wr making less than our not good enough WR2 last year 

 

and last years wr3

Well when you put it like that...

[NoSaint]

33 minutes ago, 2020 Our Year For Sure said:

Well when you put it like that...

and any of them could step up but we probably need 2 out of 3 to play above reasonable expectation to have an average to possibly above group 

[Maine-iac]

1 minute ago, NoSaint said:

and any of them could step up but we probably need 2 out of 3 to play above reasonable expectation to have an average to possibly above group 

Considering "last years WR 3" was our best receiver over the last 10 games I'd say we're half way there.