Doc Brown Posted March 23 Share Posted March 23 7 hours ago, zevo said: Generally I roll my eyes at these comments. But this is pretty accurate. Great regular season performer but has he really had a big playoff game for us? Not past the WC round but he had a certain play for the Vikings that was somewhat memorable in the playoffs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted March 23 Share Posted March 23 (edited) 2 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said: Gilmore was very likely to yield a 1st or 2nd rounder in trade. He immediately became the top free agent on the market that season. By A LOT. It's supply and demand and the demand for shut-down CB's was higher then. Since spring of 2017 CB contracts have stagnated as the league in general has turned more to a bend-don't-break philosophy in the secondary. We aren't likely to see a CB win NFL DPOY again any time soon. But back then a CB could and did win NFL DPOY. Stephon Gilmore, in his second season in NE did, actually. And Bob Woods also left during that 2017 offseason and also became an All Pro. Guess how many comp picks the Bills got for losing an NFL defensive MVP and an All Pro WR? But yeah, mock the Chiefs for only getting a 3rd and a 7th. I didn't mock them for what they got. If you'd been paying attention, I said that's what you're going to get when the player you're trading is looking to be the highest paid at his position and there is 1st round draft pick compensation involved. If Sneed had been an UFA, he'd be one of the top free agents on the market as well and would probably be able to get more than he will with the Titans because he'd have more suitors. As for CB contract stagnating, Gilmore signed a contract averaging $13M in 2017. Jaire Alexander signed a contract averaging $21M in 2022. That's over a 60% increase in 5 years for the top CB on the market, which Sneed is. And as for Bob Woods, he has never made the Pro Bowl (probably should have in 2017), much less All-Pro. And Gilmore didn't even make the Pro Bowl in 2017. The reason the Bills didn't receive a comp pick for either is because they signed more UFAs than they lost that year, trying to turnaround a franchise that hadn't made the playoffs in 17 years. And they succeeded. Edited March 23 by Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awwufelloff Posted March 23 Share Posted March 23 4 hours ago, BillsPride12 said: Good news for us. Sneed was a good player. I thought he was the unsung hero for the Chiefs in the Super Bowl this year That was mcduffie, who we should have drafted. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoBills808 Posted March 23 Share Posted March 23 39 minutes ago, Doc Brown said: Not past the WC round but he had a certain play for the Vikings that was somewhat memorable in the playoffs. Meh He just happened to be the one who caught that pass, the defense was the memorable part Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoTier Posted March 23 Share Posted March 23 21 minutes ago, Awwufelloff said: That was mcduffie, who we should have drafted. Reality check. The Bills drafted Elam at #23 after KC drafted Mcduffie at #21. I'm not sure if the Chiefs traded up to do that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted March 23 Share Posted March 23 1 minute ago, SoTier said: Reality check. The Bills drafted Elam at #23 after KC drafted Mcduffie at #21. I'm not sure if the Chiefs traded up to do that. They did. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethan in Cleveland Posted March 23 Share Posted March 23 Titans making some nice moves. Too bad they don't have a QB. Not great compensation for the Chiefs for a very good player. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted March 23 Share Posted March 23 13 minutes ago, Doc said: I didn't mock them for what they got. If you'd been paying attention, I said that's what you're going to get when the player you're trading is looking to be the highest paid at his position and there is draft pick compensation involved. If Sneed had been an UFA, he'd be one of the top free agents on the market as well and would probably be able to get more than he will with the Titans because he'd have more suitors. As for CB contract stagnating, Gilmore signed a contract averaging $13M in 2017. Jaire Alexander signed a contract averaging $21M in 2022. That's over a 60% increase in 5 years. And as for Bob Woods, he has never made the Pro Bowl (probably should have in 2017), much less All-Pro. And Gilmore didn't even make the Pro Bowl in 2017. The reason the Bills didn't receive a comp pick for either is because they signed more UFAs than they lost that year, trying to turnaround a franchise that hadn't made the playoffs in 17 years. And they succeeded. My bad, you were mocking the idea that it was worth franchise tagging a player to get just a 3rd and 7th round pick? So the Bills were wise not to do so with Gilmore? Was that your attempt at a point? Gilmore was worth more then than Sneed was now because of the way defense is played now. Like I said he was the TOP free agent in that class. Sneed would not have been. There was even a franchise QB in this years free agent class. Times have changed. Those picks are valuable.........Beane literally crafted much of his free agent activity last offseason to try to get a later 3rd round pick in 2024 and it was a gut punch when they didn't get it. Back in that 2017-2019 range there were a lot of defensive players being tagged and traded for picks ranging from 1st's to 3rd's. Clowney, Frank Clark, Dee Ford to name a few. And in 2020 even a safety in Jamal Adams was traded for 2 first round picks after he got upset about having his 5th year option picked up by the Jets instead of getting a new contract. In short, the circumstances around Sneed's free agency are not the same. As for the contracts..........remember that at the time the top of the CB market was $13M the top of the WR market was about $16M(Sammy Watkins 2018). Now, the top of the CB market is going to be about HALF of the top of the WR market when Jefferson gets his $35M+ aav. CB is no longer paid like a premium position. They are being paid more like G's and Tackles. Sneed's $19M aav is just a million more than Tremaine Edmunds got as an off-ball LB. I was wrong about Woods being an All Pro but he was 13th among NFL players in in receiving yards in both 2018 and 2019. Making him a stud producer at a time when the Bills didn't have a receiver inside the top 30 in the league in receiving yards. So the Bills got NOTHING AT ALL in compensation for losing a top producing WR and an NFL defensive MVP. Mistakes were made. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted March 23 Share Posted March 23 Woot. He’s really good. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted March 23 Share Posted March 23 29 minutes ago, Ethan in Cleveland said: Titans making some nice moves. Too bad they don't have a QB. Not great compensation for the Chiefs for a very good player. They could have just let him walk and *maybe* if they hold their water and don't sign anyone to negate that value, get a comp pick. Instead, they definitely got a higher pick in hand........which (based on the Edmunds equation) could be more than a full round higher than a comp pick in the same 2025 draft. In 2017 the Texans traded a second round pick to the Browns to eat Brock Osweiler's $16M in cash and $10M in cap space. Those figures equate to $24.5M and $15.3M in todays cap dollars. So don't discount the value of finding a 3rd rounder on the street. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsPride12 Posted March 23 Share Posted March 23 1 hour ago, Awwufelloff said: That was mcduffie, who we should have drafted. I stand corrected, thank you it was McDuffie I was thinking of Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted March 23 Share Posted March 23 (edited) 2 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said: My bad, you were mocking the idea that it was worth franchise tagging a player to get just a 3rd and 7th round pick? So the Bills were wise not to do so with Gilmore? Was that your attempt at a point? Gilmore was worth more then than Sneed was now because of the way defense is played now. Like I said he was the TOP free agent in that class. Sneed would not have been. There was even a franchise QB in this years free agent class. Times have changed. Those picks are valuable.........Beane literally crafted much of his free agent activity last offseason to try to get a later 3rd round pick in 2024 and it was a gut punch when they didn't get it. Back in that 2017-2019 range there were a lot of defensive players being tagged and traded for picks ranging from 1st's to 3rd's. Clowney, Frank Clark, Dee Ford to name a few. And in 2020 even a safety in Jamal Adams was traded for 2 first round picks after he got upset about having his 5th year option picked up by the Jets instead of getting a new contract. In short, the circumstances around Sneed's free agency are not the same. As for the contracts..........remember that at the time the top of the CB market was $13M the top of the WR market was about $16M(Sammy Watkins 2018). Now, the top of the CB market is going to be about HALF of the top of the WR market when Jefferson gets his $35M+ aav. CB is no longer paid like a premium position. They are being paid more like G's and Tackles. Sneed's $19M aav is just a million more than Tremaine Edmunds got as an off-ball LB. I was wrong about Woods being an All Pro but he was 13th among NFL players in in receiving yards in both 2018 and 2019. Making him a stud producer at a time when the Bills didn't have a receiver inside the top 30 in the league in receiving yards. So the Bills got NOTHING AT ALL in compensation for losing a top producing WR and an NFL defensive MVP. Mistakes were made. No, I said that some people were pissed the Bills didn't franchise Gilmore because they were sure he would get them a 1st. I didn't think I was mocking anyone, but if you took it that way... Forget about Woods. His best season with the Bills was 699 yards. He was never a franchise candidate and wanted out. With Tyrod returning as his QB, it's hard to blame him. And few people saw him doing as well as he did with the Rams. While, as an aside, I'd love for Josh to have an OC like McVay. As for Gilmore, the biggest problem was that he never wanted to be in Buffalo anyway and also wanted out, and McD (who was the GM that off-season) didn't want him back anyway. And that was common knowledge and destroyed any leverage the Bills had. And it's arguable whether mistakes were truly made in the grand scheme of things with those 2. The Bills have made the playoffs 5 out of his 6 seasons as HC and much of that success is due to what he did his first off-season as GM and year as HC. Edited March 23 by Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted March 23 Share Posted March 23 3 minutes ago, Doc said: No, I said that some people were pissed the Bills didn't franchise Gilmore because they were sure he would get a 1st for them. I didn't think I was mocking anyone, but if you took it that way... Forget about Woods. His best season with the Bills was 699 yards. He was never a franchise candidate and wanted out. With Tyrod returning as his QB, it's hard to blame him. And few people saw him doing as well as he did with the Rams. While OTOH I'd love for Josh to have an OC like McVay. As for Gilmore, the biggest problem was that he never wanted to be in Buffalo anyway and also wanted out, and McD didn't want him back anyway. And that was common knowledge and destroyed any leverage the Bills had. And it's arguable whether mistakes were truly made with those 2. The Bills have made the playoffs 5 out of his 6 seasons as HC and much of that success is due to what he did his first year as HC. What is with this wandering off on a tangents when you are wrong BS you always respond with? Maybe acknowledge when you are wrong now and then so people understand that you are intelligent enough to follow the conversation. CB's salaries have fallen into the same range as top G's, RT's and LB's. It's no longer priced as a premium position. You tried to claim otherwise and used a contract % to prove it without taking into account that the cap had increased about the same amount. And they STILL got a 3rd round pick for Sneed. The fact that they SHOULD have franchised and traded Gilmore isn't very arguable. They went into that offseason $32M under the cap and with very little committed in 2018 or 2019. They were in a much better position to franchise and trade Gilmore than KC was now. Whether he wanted to be there in the offseason or not is COMPLETELY irrelevant with regard to being able to trade him. The player isn't going to rush in and sign his franchise tender.........he and his agent have every motivation to work out a reasonable deal quickly with another team before free agency money dries up. And that definitely doesn't hurt the value in return. The team has all the leverage and nothing to lose by tagging them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted March 23 Share Posted March 23 (edited) 24 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said: What is with this wandering off on a tangents when you are wrong BS you always respond with? Maybe acknowledge when you are wrong now and then so people understand that you are intelligent enough to follow the conversation. CB's salaries have fallen into the same range as top G's, RT's and LB's. It's no longer priced as a premium position. You tried to claim otherwise and used a contract % to prove it without taking into account that the cap had increased about the same amount. And they STILL got a 3rd round pick for Sneed. The fact that they SHOULD have franchised and traded Gilmore isn't very arguable. They went into that offseason $32M under the cap and with very little committed in 2018 or 2019. They were in a much better position to franchise and trade Gilmore than KC was now. Whether he wanted to be there in the offseason or not is COMPLETELY irrelevant with regard to being able to trade him. The player isn't going to rush in and sign his franchise tender.........he and his agent have every motivation to work out a reasonable deal quickly with another team before free agency money dries up. And that definitely doesn't hurt the value in return. The team has all the leverage and nothing to lose by tagging them. If this reply is what passes as "intelligence," No, a player not wanting to return to a team and a team not wanting him to return absolutely affect trade compensation, especially if there's a deadline like the draft and the trading team wanting to get a draft pick and unload a problem player who will want a say in where he goes and threaten to not report if he doesn't get his way (and I can guarantee you Belicheat wasn't giving the Bills a 1st and the Bills wouldn't have traded him there anyway). So believing the Bills would have gotten a 1st for him is nothing more than that: a belief. Blow harder if you must. Edited March 23 by Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billl Posted March 23 Share Posted March 23 4 hours ago, JaCrispy said: Can’t believe they didn’t get at least a 2nd I can’t believe anyone trades away anything for the right to sign a guy to the biggest contract in history. It’s GM malpractice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mannc Posted March 23 Share Posted March 23 8 hours ago, Beck Water said: Chris Jones. 5 year, $158M contract, $95M guaranteed. It's not a big hit on their cap this season cuz he gets his $30M signing bonus amortized and vet min salary, but next year it's $34.85M I said, “other than the Big 3”. Jones is one of the Big Three. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt_In_NH Posted March 25 Share Posted March 25 Man the Chiefs are dumb, didn't someone tell them the cap is not real, it's "just accounting" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleeding Bills Blue Posted March 25 Share Posted March 25 On 3/23/2024 at 3:11 PM, Awwufelloff said: That was mcduffie, who we should have drafted. Can't really draft players that are drafted before you pick though... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweats Posted March 25 Share Posted March 25 Titans are building themselves quite a reputable franchise over there these days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bills742 Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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