Pass rusher. A huge need not being talked about enough

[FireChans]

1 minute ago, Dr. Who said:

Is that a function of evaluation, or the attempt to build a team with depth, or both? I think they are too risk averse, but where to draw the line and avoid crazy gambling might not be easy, and they got stung with the Von Miller shot. I hope it doesn't stop them from being open to creative ways to get that higher caliber athlete, whether that be WR (my preference) or DL. And yes, I wouldn't rule out OL.

They run their team like they used to in Carolina. They are hyper-focused on trench play on both sides, usually to the detriment of skill position players, namely WR. 

 

In the 4 years prior to coming to Buffalo, Carolina spent a 1, a 2, a 2, and a 1 on DL (and almost all of them have been Bills at some point lol).  They drafted a running back in the top 8. They drafted 1 WR in the first round with Cam in his prime.

[GoBills808]

6 minutes ago, FireChans said:

FWIW, I would absolutely agree that McD is a good coach and not an upper echelon elite coach.

 

The difference is elite coaches aren't easy to find and there's only so much elite coaches can do to put their inferior players in a position to succeed.

 

Did Brock Purdy struggle in the postseason compared to the regular season because Shanny just sucks in the postseason?  Or is it because it was much harder to hide him against better competition?

 

I want your better half to answer this question. @GoBills808

😂😂 @mragscan speak for himself

 

personally and again to the point of the thread- whether it's poor talent identification by Beane or poor usage/development by McDermott another first round pick on dline would be a misallocation

[mrags]

5 minutes ago, MasterStrategist said:

I know what you're trying to debate, but alot of what you just said above is on Beane.   Coach isn't a magician, I'd say he's a guru in running a very effective scheme and his ability to "coach up" the secondary.

 

I'd agree Coach has his flaws/made mistakes, all coaches have.  The 13 seconds has been mentioned a million times, it's about learning from mistakes and moving forward.  If you want to continue holding something over someone's head, go for it.  We also could have been a 1 seed that season if Daboll/offense didn't lay an egg against the Jags.

 

Look at Kyle Shanahan/Mike McDaniel.  Two very talented offensive minds.  Yet, they continue to spend resources on offense, even while being called a "guru".  Should they be held to a different standard?  Each team/coach/staff have their philosophies on team building, schemes, ability to identify and acquire talent in the draft, etc.  I think Coach is better than Beane personally, even though I agree with most of Beanes moves (except holding onto aging vets too long, poor DL ROI, missing on too many early pick). It's just that other organizations have a better GM/Coach combo.

 

We are lacking talent on DL AND WR, plain and simple.  By your and 808's arguments, should we target offense early in draft?  We've been a top 5 offense, does that mean we have good enough talent?  No, Josh is primary reason and we need better WRs for him.  Just like we've had a very good defense, we need better DL to impact the likes of Burrow and Mahomes in playoffs.

IMO our defense has enough talent to impact and match up with the teams in the playoffs. We’ve proven it in the regular season year after year. Again, it’s McD and his conservative mindset in the playoffs that kills us time and time again. 

like I already stated. If Shanny had Allen he would have set records and won multiple championships by now. McDaniel is the offensive version of McDermott imo. 
 

And yes, I do bring it up over and over again and hold it over him. Because he continues to make the same mistakes over and over. 

[Dr. Who]

Just now, FireChans said:

They run their team like they used to in Carolina. They are hyper-focused on trench play on both sides, usually to the detriment of skill position players, namely WR. 

 

In the 4 years prior to coming to Buffalo, Carolina spent a 1, a 2, a 2, and a 1 on DL (and almost all of them have been Bills at some point lol).  They drafted a running back in the top 8. They drafted 1 WR in the first round with Cam in his prime.

I can only say I hope Beane is not metaphysically tied to the Carolina model. He should see it isn't sufficient, and it sure didn't age well for Cam.

[Aussie Joe]

18 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Nobody has been more vocal about them spending too many resources on DL than me. I have made that point repeatedly. Especially mid range vet FA deals. Especially in the spring of 2022 when they signed Jones, Phillips and Settle for the DL while only re-signing Bates and one of the most overrated players of his generation in Roger Saffold for OL. I predicted that would be a disaster and it was. 

 

They have to do a better job on personnel. They just have to.

Do you think Beane might have asked Kromer’s opinion before he signed Saffold, considering he was his coach at the Rams? 

 

I wonder if Kromer was saying not to do it .. but Beane told him to sod off..

 

And yes … im kidding … for all we know .. Kromer could have been cheerleading for Beane to make that move .. 

[FireChans]

3 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

A real triumph of defensive acumen

The playoffs lights weren't too bright that game for McD, I guess. You'd think, with your thesis of "its not that the players not being that good, its actually the coach being good in the regular season and then inexplicably BAD in the postseason and has nothing to do with the caliber of opponent" the defense would've been terrible that game.

 

Maybe he still thought it was week 18. Forgot to tell Ed to pretend to play. He remembered the next week, I suppose.

3 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

😂😂 @mragscan speak for himself

 

personally and again to the point of the thread- whether it's poor talent identification by Beane or poor usage/development by McDermott another first round pick on dline would be a misallocation

I'm on record that if they go DL in round one, I'm starting the Fire Beane billboard GoFundMe. I'm not joking.

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, FireChans said:

The playoffs lights weren't too bright that game for McD, I guess. You'd think, with your thesis of "its not that the players not being that good, its actually the coach being good in the regular season and then inexplicably BAD in the postseason and has nothing to do with the caliber of opponent" the defense would've been terrible that game.

 

Maybe he still thought it was week 18. Forgot to tell Ed to pretend to play. He remembered the next week, I suppose.

They weren't great, they were adequate

 

I suppose we have to set the bar somewhere

[mrags]

Just now, GoBills808 said:

😂😂 @mragscan speak for himself

 

personally and again to the point of the thread- whether it's poor talent identification by Beane or poor usage/development by McDermott another first round pick on dline would be a misallocation

Yeah I think I’ve proved that I can speak for myself over the years. Time and time again I disagree with the masses in this place and don’t back down and hold my ground. Even when I’m in a thread and I’m the only one making the point for a particular side and everyone else is debating it. Yet here I am, continuing to not back down and defend myself. I’ll be here next year this time too. Expressing my dislike for this coach again after we don’t win a championship again. Ive been very vocal that I don’t think this coach ever wins a SB unless he gets extremely lucky and Allen goes full nuclear and just punishes people in the playoffs. He’ll have to overcome McDs terrible coaching to do it. 

[FireChans]

4 minutes ago, Dr. Who said:

I can only say I hope Beane is not metaphysically tied to the Carolina model. He should see it isn't sufficient, and it sure didn't age well for Cam.

He clearly didn't show he learned otherwise in his first 7 seasons here. Why should we believe year 8 is gonna be different?

1 minute ago, mrags said:

Yeah I think I’ve proved that I can speak for myself over the years. Time and time again I disagree with the masses in this place and don’t back down and hold my ground. Even when I’m in a thread and I’m the only one making the point for a particular side and everyone else is debating it. Yet here I am, continuing to not back down and defend myself. I’ll be here next year this time too. Expressing my dislike for this coach again after we don’t win a championship again. Ive been very vocal that I don’t think this coach ever wins a SB unless he gets extremely lucky and Allen goes full nuclear and just punishes people in the playoffs. He’ll have to overcome McDs terrible coaching to do it. 

You are far too hyperfixated on McD over Beane, IMO.

[mrags]

11 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

A real triumph of defensive acumen

Right. Now all the sudden we’re great because we sacked a 3rd string QB with a depleted OL. lol. Got it. 

[FireChans]

1 minute ago, mrags said:

Right. Now all the sudden we’re great because we sacked a 3rd string QB with a depleted OL. lol. Got it. 

This just demonstrates you have the reading comprehension of an ant. Lol.

[mrags]

2 minutes ago, FireChans said:

He clearly didn't show he learned otherwise in his first 7 seasons here. Why should we believe year 8 is gonna be different?

You are far too hyperfixated on McD over Beane, IMO.

I disagree. Beane has made some moves to get players and McD refuses to let them see the field. Elam is a prime example of that. The guys had 3 ints in big moments but for whatever reason he is constantly a game day decision to be in plain clothes. 

Just now, FireChans said:

This just demonstrates you have the reading comprehension of an ant. Lol.

Don’t follow 

[Dr. Who]

Just now, FireChans said:

He clearly didn't show he learned otherwise in his first 7 seasons here. Why should we believe year 8 is gonna be different?

They did draft Kincaid last year. And they cut a lot of veteran locker room guys with a necessary ruthlessness. That might be too strong a word, but I am hoping it signals the possibility for change. They've also been meeting with a lot of top WR candidates for the draft. Maybe it's more of the same, and I'll be unhappy about it -- maybe not as angry as you, I dunno. Right now, I'm going to believe that Beane may be shifting course, partly because I don't relish despair and anger, and I don't feel utterly compelled to take as inevitability the choice many of us nonetheless fear is all too possible.

4 minutes ago, FireChans said:

This just demonstrates you have the reading comprehension of an ant. Lol.

[GoBills808]

5 minutes ago, FireChans said:

He clearly didn't show he learned otherwise in his first 7 seasons here. Why should we believe year 8 is gonna be different?

You are far too hyperfixated on McD over Beane, IMO.

Look we all understand we are talking about the thinnest of margins when it comes to crunch time 

 

The concept that there may be the greatest room for improvement wrt an underperforming playoff defense in the defensive HC's management of it isn't ridiculous at all

[FireChans]

5 minutes ago, mrags said:

I disagree. Beane has made some moves to get players and McD refuses to let them see the field. Elam is a prime example of that. The guys had 3 ints in big moments but for whatever reason he is constantly a game day decision to be in plain clothes. 

Don’t follow 

Obviously. That was my point.

[MasterStrategist]

2 minutes ago, mrags said:

IMO our defense has enough talent to impact and match up with the teams in the playoffs. We’ve proven it in the regular season year after year. Again, it’s McD and his conservative mindset in the playoffs that kills us time and time again. 

like I already stated. If Shanny had Allen he would have set records and won multiple championships by now. McDaniel is the offensive version of McDermott imo. 
 

And yes, I do bring it up over and over again and hold it over him. Because he continues to make the same mistakes over and over. 

I disagree on first/third paragraph, but agree with 2nd point.

 

1st paragraph: McD doesn't go into Conservative mode in playoffs, we just into better talent.  Over the past few years, there's a reason our defense is very good on wildcard weekend (except Colts game).  And that's solely based on us playing a 6/7 seed (less talented team).

 

3rd: I don't recall McD making same mistakes year to year in playoffs 

 

Looking at who've we lost to, 2020-2023:

Chiefs 3x

Bengals 1x

 

We were severely outplayed in the trenches in each game.  We used our same defensive philosophies/schematics, that we did in regular season.  It's just that we didn't have the talent, even against a poor Bengals OL.  

 

Key to our defensive success:

1. Generate pressure/disrupt run game with front 4

2. LB/nickle/safety play

 

In particular against Chiefs this past year, having to play without Milano/Bernard really killed us.  Then on top of that, our primary disruptive player in front 4 (Ed) got manhandled (refs also tucked away their flags).

 

Our DL has enough to talent to be somewhere in the range of "not liabilty"-"solid", vs playoff teams.  But we're inconsistent AND I think we should be able to agree that Ed is our only 1-1 disruptor.  Teams like KC, Bengals, Ravens, SF, Eagles (2022), have multiple guys and its no conincidence these teams are top tier/elite.

[GoBills808]

Just now, MasterStrategist said:

I disagree on first/third paragraph, but agree with 2nd point.

 

1st paragraph: McD doesn't go into Conservative mode in playoffs, we just into better talent.  Over the past few years, there's a reason our defense is very good on wildcard weekend (except Colts game).  And that's solely based on us playing a 6/7 seed (less talented team).

 

3rd: I don't recall McD making same mistakes year to year in playoffs 

 

Looking at who've we lost to, 2020-2023:

Chiefs 3x

Bengals 1x

 

We were severely outplayed in the trenches in each game.  We used our same defensive philosophies/schematics, that we did in regular season.  It's just that we didn't have the talent, even against a poor Bengals OL.  

 

Key to our defensive success:

1. Generate pressure/disrupt run game with front 4

2. LB/nickle/safety play

 

In particular against Chiefs this past year, having to play without Milano/Bernard really killed us.  Then on top of that, our primary disruptive player in front 4 (Ed) got manhandled (refs also tucked away their flags).

 

Our DL has enough to talent to be somewhere in the range of "not liabilty"-"solid", vs playoff teams.  But we're inconsistent AND I think we should be able to agree that Ed is our only 1-1 disruptor.  Teams like KC, Bengals, Ravens, SF, Eagles (2022), have multiple guys and its no conincidence these teams are top tier/elite.

We had a lot more talent than that Bengals offensive line

[FireChans]

2 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Look we all understand we are talking about the thinnest of margins when it comes to crunch time 

 

The concept that there may be the greatest room for improvement wrt an underperforming playoff defense in the defensive HC's management of it isn't ridiculous at all

Explain to me how.

 

That's what I want.

[MasterStrategist]

Just now, GoBills808 said:

We had a lot more talent than that Bengals offensive line

It didn't show up that day.  That's not on what McD/Frazier was coaching them to do.  It's that the players didn't perform.

 

Missing Daquan and Phillips playing with 1 arm killed us there.  Mixon could have ran for 200 yards, if they wanted to.  That had nothing to do with McD/Frazier playing off coverage...should we need to run blitz a team with 3rd stringers on the IOL?  That was lack of effort/talent, not on Coach

[GoBills808]

Just now, FireChans said:

Explain to me how.

 

That's what I want.

If I knew how I'd be coaching professional football

 

Teams like KC and Cincinnati are somehow able to perform above their regular season level on defense in the playoffs

 

We have seen the opposite phenomenon

 

 

[FireChans]

1 minute ago, GoBills808 said:

If I knew how I'd be coaching professional football

 

Teams like KC and Cincinnati are somehow able to perform above their regular season level on defense in the playoffs

 

We have seen the opposite phenomenon

 

 

Hire Spags to coach our defense?  All for it.  Send a letter to One Bills Drive.

[mrags]

7 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Obviously. That was my point.

[Bermuda Triangle]

2 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

We had a lot more talent than that Bengals offensive line

Per Pro Football Reference, the Bills started Rousseau, Lawson, Ankou and Settle that day.

Just now, GoBills808 said:

If I knew how I'd be coaching professional football

 

Teams like KC and Cincinnati are somehow able to perform above their regular season level on defense in the playoffs

 

We have seen the opposite phenomenon

 

 

They have disruptive players on their DL, that's how.

[NewEra]

1 hour ago, GoBills808 said:

I'd like to see them shift some of those assets toward offense and particularly wideout...because it doesn't seem to matter much whether Beane can't pick them or McDermott can't use/develop them but we don't get the payoff come postseason. Invest in the area where we actually do perform and profit is the play imo

I hear ya.  I hope they go all offense too. I just don’t expect them to put any less focus on improving our pass rush.   This is their way.  That doesn’t necessarily mean they use our first pick on a pass rusher.  I think WR is the likely pick but I expect them to take the BPA out of WR, pass rusher or possibly even OT

[FireChans]

2 minutes ago, mrags said:

Oh no. The irony.

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, Bermuda Triangle said:

Per Pro Football Reference, the Bills started Rousseau, Lawson, Ankou and Settle that day.

They have disruptive players on their DL, that's how.

That's who was in on the first snap yes

 

We were missing Jones and Miller, Oliver played his normal invisible in the playoffs self

[Bermuda Triangle]

Just now, GoBills808 said:

That's who was in on the first snap yes

 

We were missing Jones and Miller, Oliver played his normal invisible in the playoffs self

And the DL got whipped in the run game. 

[FireChans]

2 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

That's who was in on the first snap yes

 

We were missing Jones and Miller, Oliver played his normal invisible in the playoffs self

Not to mention Dean Marlowe playing safety and the ghost of Tre White watching Burrow drop bombs over his head while playing 7 yards off the line coverage.

 

Man, hard to believe the Bills had no answers for Burrow, Chase, and Higgins with such a talented defensive group. Spags would've had Marlowe playing like Ronnie Lott out there.

[GoBills808]

7 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Not to mention Dean Marlowe playing safety and the ghost of Tre White watching Burrow drop bombs over his head while playing 7 yards off the line coverage.

 

Man, hard to believe the Bills had no answers for Burrow, Chase, and Higgins with such a talented defensive group. Spags would've had Marlowe playing like Ronnie Lott out there.

No doubt

 

I mean how could they possibly have held up on the back end w th dline squaring off against the Great Wall of Hakeen Adeniji/Jackson Carman

[julian]

20 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

If I knew how I'd be coaching professional football

 

Teams like KC and Cincinnati are somehow able to perform above their regular season level on defense in the playoffs

 

We have seen the opposite phenomenon

 

 

The great Joe Burrow has been mediocre in the playoffs, but because his defense actually gets better in the playoffs they’ve won game in spite of Burrow’s average numbers.

 

 Allen is looking like one of the greatest playoff QBs ever, elevating his play which is crazy, yet the D sh*Ts the bed.

 

 It’s becoming tiring.

[FireChans]

4 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

No doubt

 

I mean how could they possibly have held up on the back end w th dline squaring off against the Great Wall of Hakeen Adeniji/Jackson Carman

Jackson Carman vs Eli Ankou, I take Carman all day.

[Bermuda Triangle]

3 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

No doubt

 

I mean how could they possibly have held up on the back end w th dline squaring off against the Great Wall of Hakeen Adeniji/Jackson Carman

The DL made the Bengals OL look like the Hogs.

[Snappysnackcakes]

Championship squads are built on left tackles, edge rushers, and lockdown corners. And of course quarterbacks. I have zero problem with Beane zeroing in on edge rushers consistently, and nor should you.

[GoBills808]

6 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Jackson Carman vs Eli Ankou, I take Carman all day.

Ankou didn't play much

 

it was Oliver at 75% of defensive snaps

[FireChans]

4 minutes ago, Bermuda Triangle said:

The DL made the Bengals OL look like the Hogs.

Tbh, this was the game i gave up on Edmunds. I watched him get pancaked out of the stadium on third and 1 by Jackson Carman after watching Hayden Hurst eat all afternoon in the middle of the field, and I had finally realized the scarecrow sucked.

[mrags]

4 minutes ago, Snappysnackcakes said:

Championship squads are built on left tackles, edge rushers, and lockdown corners. And of course quarterbacks. I have zero problem with Beane zeroing in on edge rushers consistently, and nor should you.

Yeah. Would just be nice if her ever hit on one. 

[FireChans]

2 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Ankou didn't play much

 

it was Oliver at 75% of defensive snaps

Any snap he plays is too much.

 

It is funny how that game gets remembered. It was a really bad start by the defense. but they allowed only 13 points the rest of the way. Of course, Dorsey-ball dictated we would only score 3 points from the second Q on.

[gonzo1105]

The problem you had is there is legit not really an edge rusher that I would say that guys a 10 sack man. I don't even know if Verse and Turner become 10 sack guys. If we can get our hands on Verse, Turner, or Latu then I think you take that chance. Even maybe Chop Robinson but beyond that there isn't really a 10 sack potential guy in this class if you ask me right now.

 

I think thats why you saw Beane add a guy like Toohill to go along with Kingsley, Miller, Groot and Epenesa.

[Turbo44]

clowney 1 yr 7-8m; problem solved.  It my have to wait until 6.1 though

[GoBills808]

3 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Any snap he plays is too much.

 

It is funny how that game gets remembered. It was a really bad start by the defense. but they allowed only 13 points the rest of the way. Of course, Dorsey-ball dictated we would only score 3 points from the second Q on.

We gave up 172 rush yards on over 5ypc

 

The Bengals didn't need to score a ton to dominate