Pass rusher. A huge need not being talked about enough

[oldmanfan]

3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I am not arguing for more 1st round resources spent on the DL. They have shot their shots. They have to make it work.

Be interesting to see if Babich brings some new ideas about the pass rush

[mrags]

4 minutes ago, FireChans said:

If you aren't happy to be a top 3-4 team every year with a top 2 QB, you can watch the Panthers next year to scratch that itch of how fun it was to be in the bottom of the basement.

Ugh. For once I’d like a team that I am a fan of to actually win it. Not finish 5th. I guess your happy with playoff mediocrity 

[oldmanfan]

Just now, GunnerBill said:

 

Good job. Cos you would be useless in a debate that requires more than feels.

I’ll be happy to debate.  Let me know when you want to have a productive one vs. throwing out childish insults about McDermott.

[mrags]

1 minute ago, FireChans said:

No more. They wasted enough capital as it is. Pray Rousseau is more than potential and Epenesa takes steroids. Offense x 1000 going forward.

 

Let's try to win 38-35 over trying to win 21-17. We may still lose, but I'm 100% on board with pivoting strategy. We don't have the horses and beating our heads into the wall trying to get them picking #28 and later every year ain't gonna work.

Serious question, what are you gonna do if @GoBills808 isn't around to make cogent points for you?

Oh don’t worry I don’t need people to back up my opinions that most of you on this message board disagree with anyway. I really don’t care. 

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Good job. Cos you would be useless in a debate that requires more than feels.

As would you in a debate that actually uses facts. 

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, mrags said:

As would you in a debate that actually uses facts. 

 

Haha. Behave.

[MasterStrategist]

1 minute ago, oldmanfan said:

I’ll be happy to debate.  Let me know when you want to have a productive one vs. throwing out childish insults about McDermott.

pretty certain Gunner wasn't calling you out...instead Mrags

[FireChans]

2 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

😂😂👍That's all I wanted to say at first

 

But this idea that there's no talent on the defensive line was too tempting to ignore lol

AJE is so talented, he crawled back here for $6M a year. 39th DE in salary. Making a few mil more than Clelin Ferrel and Deatrich Wise.

 

I bet KC is sweating now.

[oldmanfan]

5 minutes ago, MasterStrategist said:

pretty certain Gunner wasn't calling you out...instead Mrags

Oops.  Read it wrong.

8 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Good job. Cos you would be useless in a debate that requires more than feels.

Responded to this thinking you were the rag guy.  Sorry.  Agree with all you’ve said.

Edited March 24 by oldmanfan

[mrags]

2 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

😂😂👍That's all I wanted to say at first

 

But this idea that there's no talent on the defensive line was too tempting to ignore lol

Oliver top 10 pick

Russeau a first round pick

Phillips a 3rd rd pick

Epenessa a 2nd rd pick

Basham a 2nd rd pick

 

and I can’t even begin to talk about all the FA resources spent on the DL. It’s more than 10. Here’s the ones off the top of my head. 
Miller

Murphy

Star

Phillips

Lawson

Settle

Floyd

Joseph

Ford

 

 

[oldmanfan]

8 minutes ago, FireChans said:

AJE is so talented, he crawled back here for $6M a year. 39th DE in salary. Making a few mil more than Clelin Ferrel and Deatrich Wise.

 

I bet KC is sweating now.

So let everyone walk and have Von and Jonathan.

Edited March 24 by oldmanfan

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, mrags said:

Oliver top 10 pick

Russeau a first round pick

Phillips a 3rd rd pick

Epenessa a 2nd rd pick

Basham a 2nd rd pick

 

and I can’t even begin to talk about all the FA resources spent on the DL. It’s more than 10. Here’s the ones off the top of my head. 
Miller

Murphy

Star

Phillips

Lawson

Settle

Floyd

Joseph

Ford

 

 

 

To be clear most of those decisions I disagreed with at the time and still do.

[GoBills808]

4 minutes ago, FireChans said:

AJE is so talented, he crawled back here for $6M a year. 39th DE in salary. Making a few mil more than Clelin Ferrel and Deatrich Wise.

 

I bet KC is sweating now.

I better not find you or your kind in the Expenses re-signed thread saying it's a good move then😂😂

[oldmanfan]

1 minute ago, mrags said:

Oliver top 10 pick

Russeau a first round pick

Phillips a 3rd rd pick

Epenessa a 2nd rd pick

Basham a 2nd rd pick

 

and I can’t even begin to talk about all the FA resources spent on the DL. It’s more than 10. Here’s the ones off the top of my head. 
Miller

Murphy

Star

Phillips

Lawson

Settle

Floyd

Joseph

Ford

 

 

Yes.  And more will be spent over the years, because you need at least 8 D linemen.

 

Basham was a bad decision.  Murphy an uninspired FA choice.  But if Miller doesn’t tear his ACL we had a great shot 2 years ago.

[Beast]

I think McDermott realizes that we will have to bring pressure from blitz schemes. Our front 4 just hasn’t done the job in crunch time during this playoff run. Time to do something else.

[Bermuda Triangle]

11 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

😂😂👍That's all I wanted to say at first

 

But this idea that there's no talent on the defensive line was too tempting to ignore lol

This is kind of weak - nobody said that there's "no talent" on the DL.  MRags' first post in this thread was (in part) as follows:   Rotate 17 defensive linemen every game and see how little snaps he can give to the actual difference makers on the defense

 

Who are these "difference makers" on the DL?  I can't get a straight answer - you're obviously an expert, so please, do tell!

[mrags]

Just now, GunnerBill said:

 

To be clear most of those decisions I disagreed with at the time and still do.

That still doesn’t negate the fact that the “guru” and beloved defensive head coach has gotten everything he’s asked for to help his defense. despite being a top 5-10 defense every year and finishing near the top of the league in sacks during the season, he vanishes in the playoffs. Against literally every opponent. He had a decent showing against the ravens in the Covid year and that’s it. 

[FireChans]

Just now, GoBills808 said:

I better not find you or your kind in the Expenses re-signed thread saying it's a good move then😂😂

Lmao, well now I'm in a pickle. Re-signing AJE for top-tier JAG money at least signaled they weren't going DE no matter what in round 1.

 

Still means his market was JAG money. Someone should tell the NFL they made a mistake, he had 6.5 sacks!

[MasterStrategist]

1 minute ago, mrags said:

Oliver top 10 pick

Russeau a first round pick

Phillips a 3rd rd pick

Epenessa a 2nd rd pick

Basham a 2nd rd pick

 

and I can’t even begin to talk about all the FA resources spent on the DL. It’s more than 10. Here’s the ones off the top of my head. 
Miller

Murphy

Star

Phillips

Lawson

Settle

Floyd

Joseph

Ford

 

 

Just because resources are spent, doesn't mean we have "talent".  Identifying young talent and spending FA $s on DL, has been Beanes/Staff biggest issue.

 

You're making a point targeted at Beane, in your post above.  If MCD is driving these decisions, which I'm sure he has some say, but it's the talent evaluators, pro and college, that are failing and Beane. 

 

Beane has turned us into a contender, because he got us Josh and Diggs.  But beyond that, he's been "solid" not spectacular.  Horrible returns on DL and missing on too many 1st/2nd round picks, is starting to show (when we have to eat the low return on Basham, Elam).  

[mrags]

3 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Yes.  And more will be spent over the years, because you need at least 8 D linemen.

 

Basham was a bad decision.  Murphy an uninspired FA choice.  But if Miller doesn’t tear his ACL we had a great shot 2 years ago.

You need that many OLmen also but you don’t see them taking 18 OL in the first 3 rounds and in FA 

[oldmanfan]

Just now, mrags said:

That still doesn’t negate the fact that the “guru” and beloved defensive head coach has gotten everything he’s asked for to help his defense. despite being a top 5-10 defense every year and finishing near the top of the league in sacks during the season, he vanishes in the playoffs. Against literally every opponent. He had a decent showing against the ravens in the Covid year and that’s it. 

When you put something in quotes it generally means you are citing someone.  Show us where anyone on the board called McD a guru.

[mrags]

Just now, MasterStrategist said:

Just because resources are spent, doesn't mean we have "talent".  Identifying young talent and spending FA $s on DL, has been Beanes/Staff biggest issue.

 

You're making a point targeted at Beane, in your post above.  If MCD is driving these decisions, which I'm sure he has some say, but it's the talent evaluators, pro and college, that are failing and Beane. 

 

Beane has turned us into a contender, because he got us Josh and Diggs.  But beyond that, he's been "solid" not spectacular.  Horrible returns on DL and missing on too many 1st/2nd round picks, is starting to show (when we have to eat the low return on Basham, Elam).  

No. My argument is that McDermott is good enough to do everything we need in the regular season. He doesn’t coach conservatively. Then when the playoffs hit he goes into a shell. Happens every year. 

[oldmanfan]

Just now, mrags said:

No. My argument is that McDermott is good enough to do everything we need in the regular season. He doesn’t coach conservatively. Then when the playoffs hit he goes into a shell. Happens every year. 

I agree somewhat here.  I’ll be interested to see if Babich is given the opportunity to use more blitzing given he knows the LBs well.

[mrags]

1 minute ago, oldmanfan said:

When you put something in quotes it generally means you are citing someone.  Show us where anyone on the board called McD a guru.

Many people see him as a savior and a defensive guru that has managed to do amazing things with little or no talent. Despite all the picks and FA resources spent on the defense.

[GoBills808]

3 minutes ago, Bermuda Triangle said:

This is kind of weak - nobody said that there's "no talent" on the DL.  MRags' first post in this thread was (in part) as follows:   Rotate 17 defensive linemen every game and see how little snaps he can give to the actual difference makers on the defense

 

Who are these "difference makers" on the DL?  I can't get a straight answer - you're obviously an expert, so please, do tell!

I don't see any difference makers either, I'm saying chalking to the massive discrepancy in regular vs postseason performance to 'talent' or lack thereof is inconsistent analysis imo

[GunnerBill]

5 minutes ago, mrags said:

You need that many OLmen also but you don’t see them taking 18 OL in the first 3 rounds and in FA 

 

Nobody has been more vocal about them spending too many resources on DL than me. I have made that point repeatedly. Especially mid range vet FA deals. Especially in the spring of 2022 when they signed Jones, Phillips and Settle for the DL while only re-signing Bates and one of the most overrated players of his generation in Roger Saffold for OL. I predicted that would be a disaster and it was. 

 

They have to do a better job on personnel. They just have to.

Edited March 24 by GunnerBill

[mrags]

Just now, oldmanfan said:

I agree somewhat here.  I’ll be interested to see if Babich is given the opportunity to use more blitzing given he knows the LBs well.

IMO he won’t be given the opportunity in the playoffs. Because McD will have him on a short leash. Which is his MO in the playoffs. He refuses to coach and play aggressively and once and for all best a team. Always playing not to lose. I’ve been sayin it for years and it continues to be true every year. 

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Nobody has been more vocal about them spending too many resources on DL than me. I have made that point repeatedly. Especially mid range vet FA deals. Especially in the spring of 2022 when they signed Jones, Phillips and Settle for the DL while only re-signing Bates and one of the most overrated players of his generation in Roger Saffold for OL. I predicted that eould be a disaster and it was. 

 

They have to do a better job on personnel. They just have to.

Now we’re getting somewhere 

 

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, mrags said:

 

Now we’re getting somewhere 

 

 

My view on their personnel success or otherwise is very well documented. They are good at good. But it takes great in the critical moments and beyond Josh they ain't good at great.

[FireChans]

2 minutes ago, mrags said:

IMO he won’t be given the opportunity in the playoffs. Because McD will have him on a short leash. Which is his MO in the playoffs. He refuses to coach and play aggressively and once and for all best a team. Always playing not to lose. I’ve been sayin it for years and it continues to be true every year. 

Oliver getting pancaked into oblivion by the Chiefs OL isn't because of anything McD does or doesn't do.

[mrags]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

My view on their personnel success or otherwise is very well documented. They are good at good. But it takes great in the critical moments and beyond Josh they ain't good at great.

Including coach. Thank you 

[FireChans]

6 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

I don't see any difference makers either, I'm saying chalking to the massive discrepancy in regular vs postseason performance to 'talent' or lack thereof is inconsistent analysis imo

You know they sacked Skylar Thompson 7 times in the postseason, right?  Did McD just forget to call all the bad plays that he usually does in the postseason? Saved them all for the next week?

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, mrags said:

Including coach. Thank you 

 

I have never argued McDermott is a great coach. He is a good one. 

[oldmanfan]

Just now, GunnerBill said:

 

I have never argued McDermott is a great coach. He is a good one. 

When he wins a Lombard he’ll be great.

[FireChans]

5 minutes ago, mrags said:

Including coach. Thank you 

FWIW, I would absolutely agree that McD is a good coach and not an upper echelon elite coach.

 

The difference is elite coaches aren't easy to find and there's only so much elite coaches can do to put their inferior players in a position to succeed.

 

Did Brock Purdy struggle in the postseason compared to the regular season because Shanny just sucks in the postseason?  Or is it because it was much harder to hide him against better competition?

 

I want your better half to answer this question. @GoBills808

Edited March 24 by FireChans

[MasterStrategist]

Just now, mrags said:

No. My argument is that McDermott is good enough to do everything we need in the regular season. He doesn’t coach conservatively. Then when the playoffs hit he goes into a shell. Happens every year. 

I know what you're trying to debate, but alot of what you just said above is on Beane.   Coach isn't a magician, I'd say he's a guru in running a very effective scheme and his ability to "coach up" the secondary.

 

I'd agree Coach has his flaws/made mistakes, all coaches have.  The 13 seconds has been mentioned a million times, it's about learning from mistakes and moving forward.  If you want to continue holding something over someone's head, go for it.  We also could have been a 1 seed that season if Daboll/offense didn't lay an egg against the Jags.

 

Look at Kyle Shanahan/Mike McDaniel.  Two very talented offensive minds.  Yet, they continue to spend resources on offense, even while being called a "guru".  Should they be held to a different standard?  Each team/coach/staff have their philosophies on team building, schemes, ability to identify and acquire talent in the draft, etc.  I think Coach is better than Beane personally, even though I agree with most of Beanes moves (except holding onto aging vets too long, poor DL ROI, missing on too many early pick). It's just that other organizations have a better GM/Coach combo.

 

We are lacking talent on DL AND WR, plain and simple.  By your and 808's arguments, should we target offense early in draft?  We've been a top 5 offense, does that mean we have good enough talent?  No, Josh is primary reason and we need better WRs for him.  Just like we've had a very good defense, we need better DL to impact the likes of Burrow and Mahomes in playoffs.

[mrags]

1 minute ago, oldmanfan said:

When he wins a Lombard he’ll be great.

I’ll be waiting. 

[Dr. Who]

5 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

My view on their personnel success or otherwise is very well documented. They are good at good. But it takes great in the critical moments and beyond Josh they ain't good at great.

Is that a function of evaluation, or the attempt to build a team with depth, or both? I think they are too risk averse, but where to draw the line and avoid crazy gambling might not be easy, and they got stung with the Von Miller shot. I hope it doesn't stop them from being open to creative ways to get that higher caliber athlete, whether that be WR (my preference) or DL. And yes, I wouldn't rule out OL.

[mrags]

1 minute ago, FireChans said:

FWIW, I would absolutely agree that McD is a good coach and not an upper echelon elite coach.

 

The difference is elite coaches aren't easy to find and there's only so much elite coaches can do to put their inferior players in a position to succeed.

 

Did Brock Purdy struggle in the postseason compared to the regular season because Shanny just sucks in the postseason?  Or is it because it was much harder to hide him against better competition?

Purdy wasn’t that good to begin with. You can’t have 2 potential mvps on the same team and claim that he was great. They had a really good defense and CMC. But it’s kind of tough to compare Shanny with McD when one of them has been to multiple SBs with multiple QBs. If Shanny had someone like Allen manning the QB spot on his team they would go undefeated and would have won at least 2 SBs by now. 

[GoBills808]

5 minutes ago, FireChans said:

You know they sacked Skylar Thompson 7 times in the postseason, right?  Did McD just forget to call all the bad plays that he usually does in the postseason? Saved them all for the next week?

A real triumph of defensive acumen

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, Dr. Who said:

Is that a function of evaluation, or the attempt to build a team with depth, or both? I think they are too risk averse, but where to draw the line and avoid crazy gambling might not be easy, and they got stung with the Von Miller shot. I hope it doesn't stop them from being open to creative ways to get that higher caliber athlete, whether that be WR (my preference) or DL. And yes, I wouldn't rule out OL.

 

Combination of strategy and evaluation IMO. The pattern of their drafting closely reflects the Panthers team they came from so I believe some of it is strategy. But they have made just plain bad evaluations in the process too - Boogie for one and Elam to play in their scheme another. Neither of those moves made sense to me at the time they were made.

[Bermuda Triangle]

9 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

I don't see any difference makers either, I'm saying chalking to the massive discrepancy in regular vs postseason performance to 'talent' or lack thereof is inconsistent analysis imo

"Good" players can make plays against weaker competition (like some teams that playoff teams such as the Bills face in the regular season).  But when the competition level is ratcheted up, like in the playoffs, "good" players make fewer plays.  It's not easy to win a SB without a great, disruptive player on the DL.