Is Florida St Ever Going to Stop Whining ?

[Mike in Horseheads]

FSU never stops bitchin, first it was at the ACC, then CFP , now back to the ACC. Just leave pay your fee that you agreed to with the ACC and don't let the door hit ya in the ass on the way out.

[BADOLBILZ]

4 hours ago, Mike in Horseheads said:

FSU never stops bitchin, first it was at the ACC, then CFP , now back to the ACC. Just leave pay your fee that you agreed to with the ACC and don't let the door hit ya in the ass on the way out.

 

 

ACC wants $560M for them to be able to leave the ACC.    That's why they don't just pay the fee.    That's like the last 15 years of Orioles payrolls.

 

 

[Mike in Horseheads]

7 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

ACC wants $560M for them to be able to leave the ACC.    That's why they don't just pay the fee.    That's like the last 15 years of Orioles payrolls.

 

 

I'll ignore the stupid Orioles comment. FSU agreed to those rules as part of the league, so thats their problem

[BADOLBILZ]

14 hours ago, Mike in Horseheads said:

I'll ignore the stupid Orioles comment. FSU agreed to those rules as part of the league, so thats their problem

 

 

No, Disney/ESPN just needs to re-negotiate their rights deal with the ACC.........or the conference will fall apart.

 

Pretty sure the Orioles are caught up in the Bally's disaster with their Maryland regional sports network...........Bally's is going under and when they do they won't pay those teams the TV rights they owed them.    

 

Same situation except it's the ACC that is going to disband if they don't get a rights deal commensurate to Big Ten and SEC.

 

It's business.   If you don't understand it,  grab a punchcard and watch the clock. 😉

[Mike in Horseheads]

8 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

No, Disney/ESPN just needs to re-negotiate their rights deal with the ACC.........or the conference will fall apart.

 

Pretty sure the Orioles are caught up in the Bally's disaster with their Maryland regional sports network...........Bally's is going under and when they do they won't pay those teams the TV rights they owed them.    

 

Same situation except it's the ACC that is going to disband if they don't get a rights deal commensurate to Big Ten and SEC.

 

It's business.   If you don't understand it,  grab a punchcard and watch the clock. 😉

MASN is owned by the O's, not part of the Ballys disaster

[BADOLBILZ]

8 hours ago, Mike in Horseheads said:

MASN is owned by the O's, not part of the Ballys disaster

 

That's good for them,  their ownership is cheap enough without that excuse to use..........but the teams that are in that Bally's jam are in a terrible spot.  

 

Like the ACC member schools individually,  other aspects of Bally's are doing great.   But Bally's aren't going to rob Peter to pay Paul..........that's not even a consideration in modern business........and neither are the ACC schools going to continue to take far less for the product they are putting on the field.    

[Mike in Horseheads]

2 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

That's good for them,  their ownership is cheap enough without that excuse to use..........but the teams that are in that Bally's jam are in a terrible spot.  

 

Like the ACC member schools individually,  other aspects of Bally's are doing great.   But Bally's aren't going to rob Peter to pay Paul..........that's not even a consideration in modern business........and neither are the ACC schools going to continue to take far less for the product they are putting on the field.    

I understand what your saying, but they agreed to that contract , Disney is not going to open it up and give free money.

... MASN also has rights to the Nats games. Angelos that owns the O's is just a cheap fuk

... Hope you have a Merry Christmas

[gonzo1105]

12 minutes ago, Mike in Horseheads said:

I understand what your saying, but they agreed to that contract , Disney is not going to open it up and give free money.

... MASN also has rights to the Nats games. Angelos that owns the O's is just a cheap fuk

... Hope you have a Merry Christmas

 

No the word is they didn't agree to the 2016 revision which extended the grant of rights from 2027 to 2036. Swofford acting as the fiduciary, in their objections lied about the situation to schools to get them to sign the contract. That is their argument. How accurate is anyone guess but they are basically stating the contract should be void because A) They didn't agree to the revision and B) Swofford wasn't acting in the best interests of the conference by trying to renegotiate their payouts with ESPN. They also believe that a contract that involves 572 million is excessive and that its restricts their right to free trade under the state of Florida trade agreements.

 

What is going to happen is ESPN doesn't want their trade secrets to leak and FSU doesn't want to have to pay 572 millions so what is going to happen is they will settle out of court and FSU will pay some insignifcant percentage of the 572 million and will be allowed to leave. The ACC prepped for this by adding SMU/Cal/Stanford. Once FSU is let out you can damn well expect at a minimum Clemson to file suit and leave as well.

[4merper4mer]

On 12/23/2023 at 12:18 AM, Mike in Horseheads said:

I'll ignore the stupid Orioles comment. FSU agreed to those rules as part of the league, so thats their problem

Don’t ignore the Orioles comment.  Use it.  His Yankees paid 4 trillion dollars to Carlos Rodon. And you have Rutchsman, Kjerstad, Grayson, Bradish, Henderson, Holliday and mooooooooore for less than the price of Rodon.  It’s a comical scenario in your favor.  Until the Yankees sign Yamamoto of course, then you’re really in trouble. Oh, wait.

[BADOLBILZ]

On 12/24/2023 at 12:00 AM, gonzo1105 said:

 

No the word is they didn't agree to the 2016 revision which extended the grant of rights from 2027 to 2036. Swofford acting as the fiduciary, in their objections lied about the situation to schools to get them to sign the contract. That is their argument. How accurate is anyone guess but they are basically stating the contract should be void because A) They didn't agree to the revision and B) Swofford wasn't acting in the best interests of the conference by trying to renegotiate their payouts with ESPN. They also believe that a contract that involves 572 million is excessive and that its restricts their right to free trade under the state of Florida trade agreements.

 

What is going to happen is ESPN doesn't want their trade secrets to leak and FSU doesn't want to have to pay 572 millions so what is going to happen is they will settle out of court and FSU will pay some insignifcant percentage of the 572 million and will be allowed to leave. The ACC prepped for this by adding SMU/Cal/Stanford. Once FSU is let out you can damn well expect at a minimum Clemson to file suit and leave as well.

 

Clemson, Miami and UNC will follow them out........they are just letting the state school pay the legal bill.     

[Dan in Owego]

6 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Clemson, Miami and UNC will follow them out........they are just letting the state school pay the legal bill.     

Exactly

 

[That's No Moon]

On 12/23/2023 at 2:59 PM, BADOLBILZ said:

No, Disney/ESPN just needs to re-negotiate their rights deal with the ACC.........or the conference will fall apart.

And they will sign a new deal with the new place that most of the teams land.  There are only so many landing places in the existing conferences.  FSU wants to go to the SEC, they'd probably need a buddy to go with them.  Who in the ACC makes sense for that? For TV it's probably Carolina or Duke but I can't see the two of them voluntarily splitting up. For football it's probably Clemson but that doesn't add the most TV money.  Possibly Miami but they don't really fit into what the rest of the SEC is school wise and IDK if Florida would be super keen on having both FSU and Miami in conference. Virginia theoretically gets you the DC TV market.  Syracuse and BC are non-starters.

 

I think the ACC could survive without FSU and Virginia.  You'd see them pick up UCF to keep the Florida footprint maybe court WVU away from the Big 12, maybe lean on ND to become a full member.

On 12/25/2023 at 4:47 PM, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Clemson, Miami and UNC will follow them out........they are just letting the state school pay the legal bill.     

I don't think UNC walks away from Duke. I might be wrong, but UNC in the SEC would be a perpetual bottom dweller in football and they'd lose a lot in basketball. What they might make in added TV money for football, they'd risk in losing bowl eligibility basically forever.

 

Clemson and UNC are state schools btw.

[gonzo1105]

1 hour ago, That's No Moon said:

And they will sign a new deal with the new place that most of the teams land.  There are only so many landing places in the existing conferences.  FSU wants to go to the SEC, they'd probably need a buddy to go with them.  Who in the ACC makes sense for that? For TV it's probably Carolina or Duke but I can't see the two of them voluntarily splitting up. For football it's probably Clemson but that doesn't add the most TV money.  Possibly Miami but they don't really fit into what the rest of the SEC is school wise and IDK if Florida would be super keen on having both FSU and Miami in conference. Virginia theoretically gets you the DC TV market.  Syracuse and BC are non-starters.

 

I think the ACC could survive without FSU and Virginia.  You'd see them pick up UCF to keep the Florida footprint maybe court WVU away from the Big 12, maybe lean on ND to become a full member.

I don't think UNC walks away from Duke. I might be wrong, but UNC in the SEC would be a perpetual bottom dweller in football and they'd lose a lot in basketball. What they might make in added TV money for football, they'd risk in losing bowl eligibility basically forever.

 

Clemson and UNC are state schools btw.

 

I can assure you that FSU based on information is much more likely to end up in the Big 10 than the SEC.  Even if ESPN came back to the ACC and said lets renegotiate, I dont believe FSU would stay. They are done with the conference unless they get an absolute sweetheart deal.

 

The Rumors are that the SEC is much more interested in UVA and UNC than they are in FSU/Clemson while the Big 10 appears to really want FSU first and then will figure out their travel partner. Do not sleep on the possibility of Georgia Tech as FSUs partner to the Big 10.

 

The ACC added SMU/Cal/Stanford to keep the conference together and to keep their current media contract.

 

I suspect you will see FSU/Another ACC team to the Big 10(most likely either UNC/VA/or Georgia Tech

 

The SEC will try to add UNC/UVA

 

If the big 10 and SEC take 2 , which I think is likely, don't be surprised if the Big 12 tries to come in and snipe 4 more from the ACC to get themselves also to 20 teams.

 

 

[4merper4mer]

1 hour ago, That's No Moon said:

And they will sign a new deal with the new place that most of the teams land.  There are only so many landing places in the existing conferences.  FSU wants to go to the SEC, they'd probably need a buddy to go with them.  Who in the ACC makes sense for that? For TV it's probably Carolina or Duke but I can't see the two of them voluntarily splitting up. For football it's probably Clemson but that doesn't add the most TV money.  Possibly Miami but they don't really fit into what the rest of the SEC is school wise and IDK if Florida would be super keen on having both FSU and Miami in conference. Virginia theoretically gets you the DC TV market.  Syracuse and BC are non-starters.

 

I think the ACC could survive without FSU and Virginia.  You'd see them pick up UCF to keep the Florida footprint maybe court WVU away from the Big 12, maybe lean on ND to become a full member.

I don't think UNC walks away from Duke. I might be wrong, but UNC in the SEC would be a perpetual bottom dweller in football and they'd lose a lot in basketball. What they might make in added TV money for football, they'd risk in losing bowl eligibility basically forever.

 

Clemson and UNC are state schools btw.

All of the above is just silly and we all know it leads to simply abolishing all teams that are not the Alabama Crimson Tide.  They are the event horizon and the rest of it is all just the noise before he inevitable.

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

8 hours ago, 4merper4mer said:

All of the above is just silly and we all know it leads to simply abolishing all teams that are not the Alabama Crimson Tide.  They are the event horizon and the rest of it is all just the noise before he inevitable.

I am glad we finally got to this point, time for the annual 'which NFL teams would lose to Alabama if they played them?' discussion. 

Edited December 27, 2023 by Ridgewaycynic2013

[4merper4mer]

2 hours ago, Ridgewaycynic2013 said:

I am glad we finally got to this point, time for the annual 'which NFL teams would lose to Alabama if they played them?' discussion. 

Go in order:

 

1. Event Horizon Crimson Tide makes the rest of CFB disappear

2. The NFL and it’s teams are no longer able to avoid the gravity of the event horizon Crimson Tide

3. Cosmologists understand the true power in the universe and abolish the use of the term event horizon, choosing instead to only use Crimson Tide as a description of the universally inevitable.

[Cynical]

On 12/26/2023 at 7:54 PM, That's No Moon said:

And they will sign a new deal with the new place that most of the teams land.  There are only so many landing places in the existing conferences.  FSU wants to go to the SEC, they'd probably need a buddy to go with them.  Who in the ACC makes sense for that? For TV it's probably Carolina or Duke but I can't see the two of them voluntarily splitting up. For football it's probably Clemson but that doesn't add the most TV money.  Possibly Miami but they don't really fit into what the rest of the SEC is school wise and IDK if Florida would be super keen on having both FSU and Miami in conference. Virginia theoretically gets you the DC TV market.  Syracuse and BC are non-starters.

 

I think the ACC could survive without FSU and Virginia.  You'd see them pick up UCF to keep the Florida footprint maybe court WVU away from the Big 12, maybe lean on ND to become a full member.

I don't think UNC walks away from Duke. I might be wrong, but UNC in the SEC would be a perpetual bottom dweller in football and they'd lose a lot in basketball. What they might make in added TV money for football, they'd risk in losing bowl eligibility basically forever.

 

Clemson and UNC are state schools btw.

 

That would be a neat trick, considering UCF started playing in the Big XII conference this year.

The ACC isn't sniping UCF any time soon.

 

FSU may want to be in the SEC, but they offer very little to the SEC.

[Cynical]

On 12/26/2023 at 9:29 PM, gonzo1105 said:

 

I can assure you that FSU based on information is much more likely to end up in the Big 10 than the SEC.  Even if ESPN came back to the ACC and said lets renegotiate, I dont believe FSU would stay. They are done with the conference unless they get an absolute sweetheart deal.

 

Unless I am mistaken, one of the requirements for entrance into the Big 10 is the schools membership in the AAU.

FSU is not in the AAU.

 

On paper, U/Miami would be a better option.

A footprint in FL, a major TV market, and an AAU member.

 

 

On 12/26/2023 at 9:29 PM, gonzo1105 said:

The Rumors are that the SEC is much more interested in UVA and UNC than they are in FSU/Clemson while the Big 10 appears to really want FSU first and then will figure out their travel partner. Do not sleep on the possibility of Georgia Tech as FSUs partner to the Big 10.

 

The ACC added SMU/Cal/Stanford to keep the conference together and to keep their current media contract.

 

I suspect you will see FSU/Another ACC team to the Big 10(most likely either UNC/VA/or Georgia Tech

 

The SEC will try to add UNC/UVA

 

If the big 10 and SEC take 2 , which I think is likely, don't be surprised if the Big 12 tries to come in and snipe 4 more from the ACC to get themselves also to 20 teams.

 

 

 

[gonzo1105]

4 hours ago, Cynical said:

 

Unless I am mistaken, one of the requirements for entrance into the Big 10 is the schools membership in the AAU.

FSU is not in the AAU.

 

On paper, U/Miami would be a better option.

A footprint in FL, a major TV market, and an AAU member.

 

 

 

It is not a requirement as Nebraska is not an AAU school but is highly recommended and FSU should be approved for AAU membership in 2 years as they are on track for increased research funding. Miami doesn’t fit because the Big 10 is made up mostly of big state public schools and Miami is a small private school 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

They are proving the selection committee was right!

And Georgia is showing the committee they screwed up too. Georgia is clearly a top 4 team no matter what the other conference winners want to say. Georgia is probably still best team in the country and they would destroy Michigan, Washington, and Texas!

[Mr. WEO]

They can all STFU now.

 

complete vindication of the CFP committee

[Bill from NYC]

2 hours ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

They are proving the selection committee was right!

And Georgia is showing the committee they screwed up too. Georgia is clearly a top 4 team no matter what the other conference winners want to say. Georgia is probably still best team in the country and they would destroy Michigan, Washington, and Texas!

I can't understand how anyone could believe that Washington is better than Georgia. The two teams are not even close imo.

 

If the two teams were playing on 1/1/24 play I would happily give 14 points.

[streetkings01]

2 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

They can all STFU now.

 

complete vindication of the CFP committee

How do you figure? The Seminoles played without their top two quarterbacks, top two running backs, top two receivers, starting tight end, three starting defensive linemen, two of three starting linebackers and three starting defensive backs. They were down 29 scholarship players in all.

 

"You can say it's their fault and they have to solve their own problem," Smart said. "We had our guys, and they didn't have their guys. College football has to decide what they want. I know things are changing. But there's still going to be bowl games outside of those. People need to decide what they want and what they want to get out of it, because it's really unfortunate for those kids on that sideline that had to play in that game and didn't have their full arsenal. And it affected the game, 100%." - Kirby Smart

 

[4merper4mer]

3 minutes ago, streetkings01 said:

How do you figure? The Seminoles played without their top two quarterbacks, top two running backs, top two receivers, starting tight end, three starting defensive linemen, two of three starting linebackers and three starting defensive backs. They were down 29 scholarship players in all.

 

"You can say it's their fault and they have to solve their own problem," Smart said. "We had our guys, and they didn't have their guys. College football has to decide what they want. I know things are changing. But there's still going to be bowl games outside of those. People need to decide what they want and what they want to get out of it, because it's really unfortunate for those kids on that sideline that had to play in that game and didn't have their full arsenal. And it affected the game, 100%." - Kirby Smart

 

It’s a defense mechanism.

[streetkings01]

7 minutes ago, 4merper4mer said:

It’s a defense mechanism.

It’s the equivalent of the Bills playing without Josh Allen, Kyle Allen, Cook, Murray, Diggs, Davis, Kincaid, Floyd, Oliver, Jones, Milano, Bernard, Douglas, White and Poyer…..getting smoked by the Eagles and then the media saying “Look…..the Bills are frauds” 🙄

[4merper4mer]

21 minutes ago, streetkings01 said:

It’s the equivalent of the Bills playing without Josh Allen, Kyle Allen, Cook, Murray, Diggs, Davis, Kincaid, Floyd, Oliver, Jones, Milano, Bernard, Douglas, White and Poyer…..getting smoked by the Eagles and then the media saying “Look…..the Bills are frauds” 🙄

It’s the SEC supremacy crowd claiming they play “tough schedules” and that justifies crapping on undefeated teams.  We have to ignore near losses to crap teams like Auburn while acknowledging as proof of supremacy  Georgia’s domination of FSU’s practice squad.  

[Dan in Owego]

This has got to be fixed

 

[Buffalo716]

2 hours ago, streetkings01 said:

How do you figure? The Seminoles played without their top two quarterbacks, top two running backs, top two receivers, starting tight end, three starting defensive linemen, two of three starting linebackers and three starting defensive backs. They were down 29 scholarship players in all.

 

"You can say it's their fault and they have to solve their own problem," Smart said. "We had our guys, and they didn't have their guys. College football has to decide what they want. I know things are changing. But there's still going to be bowl games outside of those. People need to decide what they want and what they want to get out of it, because it's really unfortunate for those kids on that sideline that had to play in that game and didn't have their full arsenal. And it affected the game, 100%." - Kirby Smart

 

That's called Kirby having class .. sure FSU might have been hit hard but that shows how little loyalty the players in the program have

 

Plenty of teams lost 10-20+ players to the portal and sitting... Fr are basically sophomores now , and sophomores basically JRs etc... they still have 60+ scholarship players

 

Georgia could lose 29 scholarship players and you would never see a 63-3 whooping

 

They are 3 deep at every position... They might lose but it wouldn't be a massacre 

 

This is the difference between years of national championship caliber depth and a program trying to return to it 

Edited December 31, 2023 by Buffalo716

[streetkings01]

1 hour ago, Buffalo716 said:

That's called Kirby having class .. sure FSU might have been hit hard but that shows how little loyalty the players in the program have

 

Plenty of teams lost 10-20+ players to the portal and sitting... Fr are basically sophomores now , and sophomores basically JRs etc... they still have 60+ scholarship players

 

Georgia could lose 29 scholarship players and you would never see a 63-3 whooping

 

They are 3 deep at every position... They might lose but it wouldn't be a massacre 

 

This is the difference between years of national championship caliber depth and a program trying to return to it 

I’m not fighting you on that. I’m a diehard FSU fan and what I saw tonight was discouraging. Discouraging for the fact that all our top players that opted out weren’t guys we actually signed to a class…..they were guys out of the portal who pretty much were never loyal to anyone, but it showed that the guys Norvell actually signed aren’t developed at all. There’s no way we can go into 2024 with that kid starting at QB!

[4merper4mer]

7 hours ago, Dan in Owego said:

This has got to be fixed

 

When all CFB teams are absorbed into the event horizon the universe will be in balance.

12 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

They can all STFU now.

 

complete vindication of the CFP committee

Trolling right?

[Mr. WEO]

14 hours ago, streetkings01 said:

How do you figure? The Seminoles played without their top two quarterbacks, top two running backs, top two receivers, starting tight end, three starting defensive linemen, two of three starting linebackers and three starting defensive backs. They were down 29 scholarship players in all.

 

"You can say it's their fault and they have to solve their own problem," Smart said. "We had our guys, and they didn't have their guys. College football has to decide what they want. I know things are changing. But there's still going to be bowl games outside of those. People need to decide what they want and what they want to get out of it, because it's really unfortunate for those kids on that sideline that had to play in that game and didn't have their full arsenal. And it affected the game, 100%." - Kirby Smart

 

this is the QB FSU was going to start in the playoffs. For this reason, they weren’t allowed in the playoffs. 
 

FSU would not be facing Louisville in the CFP….

 

It’s not “unfortunate” that FSU didn’t have their full arsenal—guys just refused to play.  Georgia had no problem suiting up for a nonplayoff bowl game.  
 

The wrong team was excluded from the CFP….

[streetkings01]

57 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

this is the QB FSU was going to start in the playoffs. For this reason, they weren’t allowed in the playoffs. 
 

FSU would not be facing Louisville in the CFP….

 

It’s not “unfortunate” that FSU didn’t have their full arsenal—guys just refused to play.  Georgia had no problem suiting up for a nonplayoff bowl game.  
 

The wrong team was excluded from the CFP….

Tate Rodemaker was the QB they were gonna start not the freshman. Rodemaker hit the portal after the season.

[Mr. WEO]

22 minutes ago, streetkings01 said:

Tate Rodemaker was the QB they were gonna start not the freshman. Rodemaker hit the portal after the season.

 
Lol portal to where—insurance sales or car sales? Hes been a benchwarmer for 4 years with redshirt.

 

Guys another scrub.  Wouldn’t have made a difference. 
 

Georgia has a lot of good players—they showed up and played.  Norvell had his players focused on crying for weeks.  Kirby Smart had his kids focused on obliterating another Orange Bowl opponent.  FSU should be shamed at that lopsided a blowout.  It’s not like the rest of the roster other than the quys who quit the team are a bunch of walk on….

 

lost by 5 dozen points….

[streetkings01]

1 minute ago, Mr. WEO said:

 
Lol portal to where—insurance sales or car sales? Hes been a benchwarmer for 4 years with redshirt.

 

Guys another scrub.  Wouldn’t have made a difference. 
 

Georgia has a lot of good players—they showed up and played.  Norvell had his players focused on crying for weeks.  Kirby Smart had his kids focused on obliterating another Orange Bowl opponent.  FSU should be shamed at that lopsided a blowout.  It’s not like the rest of the roster other than the quys who quit the team are a bunch of walk on….

 

lost by 5 dozen points….

3rd stringers vs 1st stringers. Who knows how the game would’ve turned out but the reality is FSU played probably the best team or at least most talented team in college football without 100% of their offensive production. That FSU team that was out there yesterday would’ve Ben lucky to win 1 game this season.

[Mr. WEO]

4 minutes ago, streetkings01 said:

3rd stringers vs 1st stringers. Who knows how the game would’ve turned out but the reality is FSU played probably the best team or at least most talented team in college football without 100% of their offensive production. That FSU team that was out there yesterday would’ve Ben lucky to win 1 game this season.

UB could have put up more than 3.  It wasn’t all “3rd stringers”

 

FSU with either of its backup QBs would have gotten destroyed in the CFP.  This is exactly why they were denied.  

Edited December 31, 2023 by Mr. WEO

[streetkings01]

18 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

UB could have put up more than 3.  It wasn’t all “3rd stringers”

 

FSU with either of its backup QBs would have gotten destroyed in the CFP.  This is exactly why they were denied.  

You sound dumb…..go watch the Bills game!

Edited December 31, 2023 by streetkings01

[Mr. WEO]

Just now, streetkings01 said:

You sound dumb 

Some of your best stuff right there—well argued!

[streetkings01]

1 minute ago, Mr. WEO said:

Some of your best stuff right there—well argued!

Nothing to argue…..nothing you said was worth a debate.

[Mr. WEO]

8 minutes ago, streetkings01 said:

Nothing to argue…..nothing you said was worth a debate.

 

 

 you said that FSU just put  3rd stringers out there.  Obviously untrue--I was helping you correct that.

 

Also, if you don't understand why FSU didn't get selected---I can't help you.  Georgia was a better team all year, hands down, but you didn't see them crying about not getting in. They just should up and played. 

 

Also, you aren't really debating.  Just a heads up there...