Gabe's momma chimes in

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

Our ppg average has risen nearly 10 ppg in our last 3 games.  We are beating defenses differently and once that shifts, we shift again.  It's not a huge problem unless you're individually box score scouting.  

 

Davis is a much more significant problem.  A Diggs skid doesn't mean he's a bigger problem when Davis has been shut out 3 of the last 5 games.

 

Davis provides one thing, an occasional deep chunk play.  Allen and Brady aren't going to him very often because they believe there are better options on each play.

He's not a twitchy guy that gets open, he has average hands, doesn't have good run after catch and for whatever reason, isn't on the same page as Allen a lot.  

 

Diggs is going to have his big games again soon.  

 

Obviously Davis isn't getting the targets so that's a Josh problem.  Diggs is getting the looks and isn't doing much with them.  That's a big problem.  So is Allen not looking Gabe's way and just checking down to Kincaid or Diggs. 

1 hour ago, BananaB said:

I give up. Your crush for Gabe blinding your vision

 

it's best...

[Royale with Cheese]

4 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Obviously Davis isn't getting the targets so that's a Josh problem.  Diggs is getting the looks and isn't doing much with them.  That's a big problem.  So is Allen not looking Gabe's way and just checking down to Kincaid or Diggs. 

 

it's best...

Its a “Josh problem”?  
 

Him being unreliable is a Josh problem?

He has played 4 years in the league, has averaged about 40 receptions per year and 50% catch rate with an elite QB…and 3 Offensive Coordinators.  

Its everyone else’s fault….right.

[The Frankish Reich]

6 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

Too many people emphasize drops stat.  That stat requires a perfect ball to be dropped for it to be considered a drop.  Right in the numbers.  No reaching.  No leaving feet. Etc.  Davis has more drops than 3. An NFL WR is expected to catch more than just perfect throws.  Now, obviously not all his targets are catchable but there are way more than just the 3 drops.  Sometimes a WR needs to make a play too.  Not just one that hits him in the pretty spot.

 

The bigger problem right now is all the Diggs drops IMO though.

You can't drop it if you don't get open. 

"Gabe's mom" [maybe a little input from Gabe himself there?] ignores his blocking. That appears to be his primary role now.

[Mr. WEO]

6 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

Its a “Josh problem”?  
 

Him being unreliable is a Josh problem?

He has played 4 years in the league, has averaged about 40 receptions per year and 50% catch rate with an elite QB…and 3 Offensive Coordinators.  

Its everyone else’s fault….right.

 

no not everyone else's fault.  but when Davis gets a lot of looks in a game, he produces.  he's not getting looks, but Diggs is, despite the low production that results.

 

This isn't hard...

[Royale with Cheese]

1 minute ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

no not everyone else's fault.  but when Davis gets a lot of looks in a game, he produces.  he's not getting looks, but Diggs is, despite the low production that results.

 

This isn't hard...

 

Why do you think 3 different OC's and the same QB isn't consistently going to him?  It seems like you want to force the balls to Davis and that's not a guy I would force it to.  

Give me a reason why 3 different OC's and Allen they aren't going to him consistently?  

 

Diggs is low production because he has a 5 or so game skid.  Davis isn't low production after more than 48 games?

You keep bringing up Diggs isn't producing as a #1.  Davis isn't producing as a #2.  

 

Diggs is our #1 facing the #1 corner and has a safety over the top.  Meaning Davis is singled up a lot....

 

Diggs:

87 receptions; 132 targets; 8 TD's, 11.4 average

 

Davis:

39 receptions; 69 targets; 6 TD's, 15.3 average

 

Shakir:

26 receptions; 31 targets; 2 TD's, 16.2 average

 

The argument is actually Shakir should be targeted more, not Davis.  

 

You're right, this isn't hard but you're making it.

[Brand J]

1 hour ago, Airseven said:

Very well should’ve been back to back losses where Allen missed a wide open Davis in the clutch, settled for the FG, and handed the game back to the defense to give up the winning TD. It’s both understandably frustrating and quite a bizarre circumstance.

I was thinking this has to be the most “unclutch” talented Bills team I could remember. 

[BananaB]

1 hour ago, Royale with Cheese said:

Its a “Josh problem”?  
 

Him being unreliable is a Josh problem?

He has played 4 years in the league, has averaged about 40 receptions per year and 50% catch rate with an elite QB…and 3 Offensive Coordinators.  

Its everyone else’s fault….right.

Kincaid, Shakir and Cook are catching the ball over 80% of the time. Diggs might be a little less than his usual with a 66% catch rate.  Knox is at 58% which is a drop from previous 2 years but pretty close to his first two years. Gabe is at 56%, which is almost identical to his first two years but an improvement over last. 
WeO wants to feed him more balls, he thinks that’s the answer to his inconsistencies. 😂 

 

He is who he is at this point. The same problems he had last year he has had this year. Brady taking charge of the O seems to want to more people involved and the guy who is the most inconsistent is losing the most opportunities 

Edited December 13, 2023 by BananaB

[BBFL]

2 minutes ago, BananaB said:

Kincaid, Shakir and Cook are catching the ball over 80% of the time. Diggs might be a little less than his usual with a 66% catch rate.  Knox is at 58% which is a drop from previous 2 years but pretty close to his first two years. Gabe is at 56%, which is almost identical to his first two years but an improvement over last. 
WeO wants to feed him more balls, he thinks that’s the answer to his inconsistencies. 😂 

 

 

Feeding him the big plays a few times a game had us almost juggernaut-esque for a while there. Stretching the field with mostly Gabe for the underneath guys was a success.

 

Can a Gabe replacement be better? Of course. But him and the passing offense have obliterated defenses. 

[Straight Hucklebuck]

It's working out well for both parties - Gabe can get a deal somewhere else, and for the Bills it's worked out that he's played himself out of a contract and they can draft someone just as a productive out of the box. 

 

I would double down this offseason on WR. 

 

George Pickens is now getting called out by Mike Tomlin for showing his frustration on the sidelines. What would it take to get him in Buffalo, and then draft a WR in Round 1 on top of that? 

 

Sherfield is in his last 4-games as a Bill, and it's clear that hasn't been much of a plan for him. Harty played 3 snaps against the Chiefs, after being a healthy scratch in the weeks prior, cutting him saves $4M - $5M. 

 

That leaves just Diggs and Shakir. And the Bills would be foolish to not plan for Diggs' physical decline and just hope he's the same guy at 31. And with that said, even if he is the same guy at 31, he can be taken out of games as we've seen in his Playoff games here and now the regular season. Love the guy, but the Bills organization has to raise the bar when it comes to WR and playmaking ability. 

 

And no, this doesn't account for some miraculous growth by Shorter in 2024, and if that happens, still add Pickens and a #1 WR. 

[HappyDays]

3 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

no not everyone else's fault.  but when Davis gets a lot of looks in a game, he produces.  he's not getting looks, but Diggs is, despite the low production that results.

 

This isn't hard...

 

And when teams run the ball a lot they win the game more often... I think you are smart enough to understand cause and effect here, right?

[Mr. WEO]

4 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

Why do you think 3 different OC's and the same QB isn't consistently going to him?  It seems like you want to force the balls to Davis and that's not a guy I would force it to.  

Give me a reason why 3 different OC's and Allen they aren't going to him consistently?  

 

Diggs is low production because he has a 5 or so game skid.  Davis isn't low production after more than 48 games?

You keep bringing up Diggs isn't producing as a #1.  Davis isn't producing as a #2.  

 

Diggs is our #1 facing the #1 corner and has a safety over the top.  Meaning Davis is singled up a lot....

 

Diggs:

87 receptions; 132 targets; 8 TD's, 11.4 average

 

Davis:

39 receptions; 69 targets; 6 TD's, 15.3 average

 

Shakir:

26 receptions; 31 targets; 2 TD's, 16.2 average

 

The argument is actually Shakir should be targeted more, not Davis.  

 

You're right, this isn't hard but you're making it.

 

 

Force the ball to an open WR?  That's a take...

 

Anyway, Dorsey increased Davis's targets by 50% over Daboll.  The result was:  For the full season last year, Davis had nearly 1000 yards and 8 TDs. (Diggs had about 1500 yards and 11 tds on 55% more targets than Davis). That's now considered "low production"?  That's laughable.

This year, it continued until Brady took over--he seems to think forcing it to Diggs on short routes (despite 6 drops this year) is a better way to go.  It isn't .

 

 

In his last 7 games, Diggs has been targeted 11-12  times in 4 games.  He caught only 54% of those for a total of only 226 yards.   Davis has had 2 games of 12 targets, caught 15 of them for 2 TDs and 192 yards. 

 

WHILE Davis has gotten 2, 0 and 2 targets in 3 of the the last 5 games, Diggs has gotten 7, 8 and 11 targets in the same games and produced 86, 27 and 24 yards.  It's not because he is doubled all the time (a fallacy--the best WRs in the NFL get doubles no more than 30% of their routes).  Plus, Diggs runs such short routes, "a safety over the top" isn't involved much.

 

 

 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, BananaB said:

Kincaid, Shakir and Cook are catching the ball over 80% of the time. Diggs might be a little less than his usual with a 66% catch rate.  Knox is at 58% which is a drop from previous 2 years but pretty close to his first two years. Gabe is at 56%, which is almost identical to his first two years but an improvement over last. 
WeO wants to feed him more balls, he thinks that’s the answer to his inconsistencies. 😂 

 

He is who he is at this point. The same problems he had last year he has had this year. Brady taking charge of the O seems to want to more people involved and the guy who is the most inconsistent is losing the most opportunities 

 

This has been posted many times (and should be obvious to any viewer), but Kincaid is running short out routes almost exclusively.  Would it be better to Davis to run 4 yard outs so he could have a better catch %?  lol.

 

your complete  focus is on the catch % whereas his value is in the 1st downs, the yards and the TDs.   Who is dogging Cooper, Hopkins,  Higgins, Evans, Ridley, OBJ for having catch % in the mid 50's? 

 

50 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

And when teams run the ball a lot they win the game more often... I think you are smart enough to understand cause and effect here, right?

 

not part of this discussion, but OK...

[Royale with Cheese]

4 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

Force the ball to an open WR?  That's a take...

 

Anyway, Dorsey increased Davis's targets by 50% over Daboll.  The result was:  For the full season last year, Davis had nearly 1000 yards and 8 TDs. (Diggs had about 1500 yards and 11 tds on 55% more targets than Davis). That's now considered "low production"?  That's laughable.

This year, it continued until Brady took over--he seems to think forcing it to Diggs on short routes (despite 6 drops this year) is a better way to go.  It isn't .

 

 

In his last 7 games, Diggs has been targeted 11-12  times in 4 games.  He caught only 54% of those for a total of only 226 yards.   Davis has had 2 games of 12 targets, caught 15 of them for 2 TDs and 192 yards. 

 

WHILE Davis has gotten 2, 0 and 2 targets in 3 of the the last 5 games, Diggs has gotten 7, 8 and 11 targets in the same games and produced 86, 27 and 24 yards.  It's not because he is doubled all the time (a fallacy--the best WRs in the NFL get doubles no more than 30% of their routes).  Plus, Diggs runs such short routes, "a safety over the top" isn't involved much.

 

 

 

When you break down the film, how often are you seeing Gabe Davis open?  I'm assuming you're watching game film, not broadcast view, but game film to see how open he really is.  Because I know you're smart enough to not use a few snippets here and there on Twitter.  I mean, he's running 35- 40 routes a game on average.  

 

Like you're pounding the table for Davis to get more targets because you are telling me he is always open. Because why else would you argue it?

 

Why in the world would a QB as good as Allen not even look Davis's way?  Or Brady not making much of an effort to get him involved in the game plan?
I think there is a reason.  I mean they watch film all together.  No one points out that #13 is just always open and maybe we keep throwing it to him?  Like they're that oblivious?  

 

You don't think there is a reason or maybe conspiracy or I don't honestly know.  

 

You love to cherry pick stats lol.  For an offense that throws as much as us, a 40 catch per season average from your #2 means he's an average #2.  He's been that way since he's been here.

 

And yes, a safety over the top is involved.  He's preventing us to even attempt shots downfield.  Are you saying a deep safety is not involved in a play if they don't throw it his way or something?

[HappyDays]

20 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

Would it be better to Davis to run 4 yard outs so he could have a better catch %?

 

No because he can't run those routes effectively. He runs like 3 routes pretty well. He is not a consistent separator against CB1 or CB2 man coverage.

[H2o]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

Force the ball to an open WR?  That's a take...

 

Anyway, Dorsey increased Davis's targets by 50% over Daboll.  The result was:  For the full season last year, Davis had nearly 1000 yards and 8 TDs. (Diggs had about 1500 yards and 11 tds on 55% more targets than Davis). That's now considered "low production"?  That's laughable.

This year, it continued until Brady took over--he seems to think forcing it to Diggs on short routes (despite 6 drops this year) is a better way to go.  It isn't .

 

 

In his last 7 games, Diggs has been targeted 11-12  times in 4 games.  He caught only 54% of those for a total of only 226 yards.   Davis has had 2 games of 12 targets, caught 15 of them for 2 TDs and 192 yards. 

 

WHILE Davis has gotten 2, 0 and 2 targets in 3 of the the last 5 games, Diggs has gotten 7, 8 and 11 targets in the same games and produced 86, 27 and 24 yards.  It's not because he is doubled all the time (a fallacy--the best WRs in the NFL get doubles no more than 30% of their routes).  Plus, Diggs runs such short routes, "a safety over the top" isn't involved much.

 

This has been posted many times (and should be obvious to any viewer), but Kincaid is running short out routes almost exclusively.  Would it be better to Davis to run 4 yard outs so he could have a better catch %?  lol.

 

your complete  focus is on the catch % whereas his value is in the 1st downs, the yards and the TDs.   Who is dogging Cooper, Hopkins,  Higgins, Evans, Ridley, OBJ for having catch % in the mid 50's? 

 

 

not part of this discussion, but OK...

Your banging the table for Davis is hilarious. 

 

Davis last year, in 2022, was completely underwhelming. You talk about his overall statistics like he had any form of consistency whatsoever. If you take out the Pittsburgh game, you know the one where he had 171 yards and 2 TD's, then in 16 games he had 665 yards and 5 TD's. That is pedestrian at best and more along the lines of a #3 WR than a #2. You're throwing in the Playoffs for the sole purpose of trying to beef him up. Yeah, nah, that's not him. He had one of the best performances ever of a WR in the Playoffs against KC. You gonna say he's up there with the all-time greats off of that too?  You also look at the number of untimely drops he had in key situations. There were more than a couple. 

 

You talk about the games this year, in 2023, where he's gotten 12 targets and his stats that followed? Did you bother to go into detail about the teams that happened against? No. It was against Tampa and Philly. The teams with the 30th and 28th ranked pass defenses in this league. Those were two of the four games this year where Josh put over 300 yards passing. He's also seeing the lesser of the DB's on the field, against two of the worst pass defenses in the league, and put up an average of 24 more yards per contest in those and 1 more TD than Diggs. A....mazing. Don't forget to throw in the miscues he's had this year as well. The drops are down, but he's still been the receiver involved with "miscommunication" on multiple plays this season. Josh is never going to throw anyone under the bus, but I'm fairly certain he zigged instead of holding the line when he had the CB beaten against Philly. That's objective and can be argued the other way though, which I know you would. 

 

Trying to compare him to Diggs, and act like he is somehow deserving of more targets when comparing him to Diggs, is the most laughable part about this whole argument you've concocted. Name something that Gabe does better than Diggs as a WR other than block. Better route runner? No. Better body control? No. Better chemistry with Josh? No. Better at actually catching the football? No, and I don't care about 6 drops this year either. You know he's not better than Diggs in any way, shape, or form at playing the WR position or catching the football. There's a reason Diggs is heralded as and gets paid like one of the best WR's in the NFL. Because he is. And to act like Diggs doesn't see more attention from opposing defenses is ridiculous.  

Edited December 13, 2023 by H2o

[GoBills808]

6 minutes ago, H2o said:

Your banging the table for Davis is hilarious. 

 

Davis last year, in 2022, was completely underwhelming. You talk about his overall statistics like he had any for of consistency whatsoever. If you take out the Pittsburgh game, you know the one where he had 171 yards and 2 TD's, then in 16 games he had 665 yards and 5 TD's. That is pedestrian at best and more along the lines of a #3 WR than a #2. You're throwing in the Playoffs for the sole purpose of trying to beef him up. Yeah, nah, that's not him. He had one of the best performances ever of a WR in the Playoffs against KC. You gonna say he's up there with the all-time greats off of that too?  You also look at the number of untimely drops he had in key situations. There were more than a couple. 

 

You talk about the games this year, in 2023, where he's gotten 12 targets and his stats that followed? Did you bother to go into detail about the teams that happened against? No. It was against Tampa and Philly. The teams with the 30th and 28th ranked pass defenses in this league. Those were two of the four games this year where Josh put over 300 yards passing. He's also seeing the lesser of the DB's on the field, against two of the worst pass defenses in the league, and put up an average of 24 more yards per contest in those and 1 more TD. A....mazing. Don't forget to throw in the miscues he's had this year as well. The drops are down, but he's still been the receiver involved with "miscommunication" on multiple plays this season. Josh is never going to throw anyone under the bus, but I'm fairly certain he zigged instead of holding the line when he had the CB beaten against Philly. That's objective and can be argued the other way though, which I know you would. 

 

Trying to compare him to Diggs, and act like he is somehow deserving of more targets when comparing him to Diggs, is the most laughable part about this whole argument you've concocted. Name something that Gabe does better than Diggs as a WR other than block. Better route runner? No. Better body control? No. Better chemistry with Josh? No. Better at actually catching the football? No, and I don't care about 6 drops this year either. You know he's not better than Diggs in any way, shape, or form at playing the WR position or catching the football. There's a reason Diggs is heralded as and gets paid like one of the best WR's in the NFL. Because he is. And to act like Diggs doesn't see more attention from opposing defenses is ridiculous.  

yes lol

 

in 2022 a full 12% of Davis regular season production came on one single play

 

he needs fewer targets not more

[Straight Hucklebuck]

43 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

When you break down the film, how often are you seeing Gabe Davis open?  I'm assuming you're watching game film, not broadcast view, but game film to see how open he really is.  Because I know you're smart enough to not use a few snippets here and there on Twitter.  I mean, he's running 35- 40 routes a game on average.  

 

Like you're pounding the table for Davis to get more targets because you are telling me he is always open. Because why else would you argue it?

 

Why in the world would a QB as good as Allen not even look Davis's way?  Or Brady not making much of an effort to get him involved in the game plan?
I think there is a reason.  I mean they watch film all together.  No one points out that #13 is just always open and maybe we keep throwing it to him?  Like they're that oblivious?  

 

You don't think there is a reason or maybe conspiracy or I don't honestly know.  

 

You love to cherry pick stats lol.  For an offense that throws as much as us, a 40 catch per season average from your #2 means he's an average #2.  He's been that way since he's been here.

 

And yes, a safety over the top is involved.  He's preventing us to even attempt shots downfield.  Are you saying a deep safety is not involved in a play if they don't throw it his way or something?

Why do our fans not want a better WR?

 

I just don’t understand the logic here.

 

Davis has been here for 4 years now, playing with the best QB in franchise history and he’s not a consistent, dynamic, athletic weapon.

 

He's a 4th Rounder with 4.54-4.55 speed. 

 

Happy that he’s turned out to be a capable NFLer, but is the offense getting better year over year? No it’s not, despite the best Offensive Line we’ve had, good running backs, a first round TE, coordinator continuity, etc. 
 

 

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

When you break down the film, how often are you seeing Gabe Davis open?  I'm assuming you're watching game film, not broadcast view, but game film to see how open he really is.  Because I know you're smart enough to not use a few snippets here and there on Twitter.  I mean, he's running 35- 40 routes a game on average.  

 

Like you're pounding the table for Davis to get more targets because you are telling me he is always open. Because why else would you argue it?

 

Why in the world would a QB as good as Allen not even look Davis's way?  Or Brady not making much of an effort to get him involved in the game plan?
I think there is a reason.  I mean they watch film all together.  No one points out that #13 is just always open and maybe we keep throwing it to him?  Like they're that oblivious?  

 

You don't think there is a reason or maybe conspiracy or I don't honestly know.  

 

You love to cherry pick stats lol.  For an offense that throws as much as us, a 40 catch per season average from your #2 means he's an average #2.  He's been that way since he's been here.

 

And yes, a safety over the top is involved.  He's preventing us to even attempt shots downfield.  Are you saying a deep safety is not involved in a play if they don't throw it his way or something?

 

Haven't watched film.  What does it show?

 

No one is "always open".  Why mention that?  I didn't. 

 

Diggs isn't testing the safety over the top.  His YBC (7.6) is his lowest since he has been in Buffalo.  The deep safety would have to run back toward the LOS to find Diggs on most catches. 

 

Why is Brady focusing on Diggs if he's either not open, dropping balls or not otherwise catching all those targets?  Tell us.

 

If "he's an average WR2" then....ok.  What's your point?

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, H2o said:

Your banging the table for Davis is hilarious. 

 

Davis last year, in 2022, was completely underwhelming. You talk about his overall statistics like he had any form of consistency whatsoever. If you take out the Pittsburgh game, you know the one where he had 171 yards and 2 TD's, then in 16 games he had 665 yards and 5 TD's. That is pedestrian at best and more along the lines of a #3 WR than a #2. You're throwing in the Playoffs for the sole purpose of trying to beef him up. Yeah, nah, that's not him. He had one of the best performances ever of a WR in the Playoffs against KC. You gonna say he's up there with the all-time greats off of that too?  You also look at the number of untimely drops he had in key situations. There were more than a couple. 

 

You talk about the games this year, in 2023, where he's gotten 12 targets and his stats that followed? Did you bother to go into detail about the teams that happened against? No. It was against Tampa and Philly. The teams with the 30th and 28th ranked pass defenses in this league. Those were two of the four games this year where Josh put over 300 yards passing. He's also seeing the lesser of the DB's on the field, against two of the worst pass defenses in the league, and put up an average of 24 more yards per contest in those and 1 more TD than Diggs. A....mazing. Don't forget to throw in the miscues he's had this year as well. The drops are down, but he's still been the receiver involved with "miscommunication" on multiple plays this season. Josh is never going to throw anyone under the bus, but I'm fairly certain he zigged instead of holding the line when he had the CB beaten against Philly. That's objective and can be argued the other way though, which I know you would. 

 

Trying to compare him to Diggs, and act like he is somehow deserving of more targets when comparing him to Diggs, is the most laughable part about this whole argument you've concocted. Name something that Gabe does better than Diggs as a WR other than block. Better route runner? No. Better body control? No. Better chemistry with Josh? No. Better at actually catching the football? No, and I don't care about 6 drops this year either. You know he's not better than Diggs in any way, shape, or form at playing the WR position or catching the football. There's a reason Diggs is heralded as and gets paid like one of the best WR's in the NFL. Because he is. And to act like Diggs doesn't see more attention from opposing defenses is ridiculous.  

 

 

lol what?  you guys with your straw man arguments. no, not one of the all time greats, lol but keep going!!  I also didn't say that Diggs does not see more attention than Davis.  I correctly noted that he is doubles a minority of his routes---same as better WR1s are.  nice try. 

 

anyway, I'm aware of Davis's limitations, so there's no table banging here--just pointing the poor arguments against him---while at the same time highlighting that this team's WR1 is not producing for the last 2 months.  Does anyone think Diggs is has been a top WR 1 since mid October? with a QB like Josh Allen?

 

Diggs has 8 drops this year already--he had 8 all year in 2022. His rating is his 2nd lowest of his career. This can't be brought up at all in a discussion about the production of the WR1 and the WR2 of the team? Tampa and Philly, you say?  How did Diggs compare to Davis in those 2 games? 

 

 

[Mikie2times]

Diggs has only had 7 games in a Buffalo uniform with a drop% above 15%. Drop% is just drops/targets. He has been at 15%+ 2 of the last 3 weeks. Including his highest rate of 25% against the Jets.  Allen rating when throwing to Diggs the last 3 weeks has been 44.9, 57.8, 68. This gives Allen 2 of his worst 4 ratings throwing to Diggs, and 3 of his worst 9 in just the last 3 games. This, over Diggs career with Buffalo.  

[Mr. WEO]

1 minute ago, Mikie2times said:

Diggs has only had 7 games in a Buffalo uniform with a drop% above 15%. Drop% is just drops/targets. He has been at 15%+ 2 of the last 3 weeks. Including his highest rate of 25% against the Jets.  Allen rating when throwing to Diggs the last 3 weeks has been 44.9, 57.8, 68. This gives Allen 2 of his worst 4 ratings throwing to Diggs, and 3 of his worst 9 in just the last 3 games. This, over Diggs career with Buffalo.  

 

you can't just point that out....

[Mikie2times]

5 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

lol what?  you guys with your straw man arguments. no, not one of the all time greats, lol but keep going!!  I also didn't say that Diggs does not see more attention than Davis.  I correctly noted that he is doubles a minority of his routes---same as better WR1s are.  nice try. 

 

anyway, I'm aware of Davis's limitations, so there's no table banging here--just pointing the poor arguments against him---while at the same time highlighting that this team's WR1 is not producing for the last 2 months.  Does anyone think Diggs is has been a top WR 1 since mid October? with a QB like Josh Allen?

 

Diggs has 8 drops this year already--he had 8 all year in 2022. His rating is his 2nd lowest of his career. This can't be brought up at all in a discussion about the production of the WR1 and the WR2 of the team? Tampa and Philly, you say?  How did Diggs compare to Davis in those 2 games? 

 

 

It is frustrating to see how many people look at catch% and have literally no clue how that stat works. Then they think because that % is low it must mean Gabe has bad hands. I literally want to slam my head into a concrete wall with the number of posters who reference this. Having said that his catch% is a by product of deeper routes and deeper routes are a by product of his poor route tree which is the actual problem with Gabe. His hands, while not perfect, are not even close to as big an issue as how limited he is with his route structure. If all this was already discussed my bad.  

[TrentEdwardsCheckDownOn4th]

On 12/12/2023 at 2:30 PM, DuckyBoys said:

Momma's new McMansion is fading away along with his big contract  If the Bills overpay Gabe this board will implode

Overpay ? I don't think the bills will offer Gabe anything let alone overpay. Gabe may not even be a starting WR in the league let alone a #2 WR. 

 

When some random team gives him $10MM/Yr. He needs to make sure he sends josh allen a nice Xmas present. 

[Mikie2times]

5 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

you can't just point that out....

Actual data that shows how bad Diggs is playing? What would you like me to do?

[Mr. WEO]

1 minute ago, Mikie2times said:

Actual data that shows how bad Diggs is playing? What would you like me to do?

 

I was kidding--it's heresy!!  you aren't allowed to point some things out. 

 

2 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

It is frustrating to see how many people look at catch% and have literally no clue how that stat works. Then they think because that % is low it must mean Gabe has bad hands. I literally want to slam my head into a concrete wall with the number of posters who reference this. Having said that his catch% is a by product of deeper routes and deeper routes are a by product of his poor route tree which is the actual problem with Gabe. His hands, while not perfect, are not even close to as big an issue as how limited he is with his route structure. If all this was already discussed my bad.  

 

yeah i agree with all of this.  Watching these guys invent conclusions I never made to counter while their heads explode trying to articulate their arguments is really the only fun in this.  

 

 

[GoBills808]

6 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

I was kidding--it's heresy!!  you aren't allowed to point some things out. 

 

 

yeah i agree with all of this.  Watching these guys invent conclusions I never made to counter while their heads explode trying to articulate their arguments is really the only fun in this.  

 

 

To be fair you claimed his lack of production was Allens fault so I'm not sure we should be big braining rn😂😂

[Royale with Cheese]

29 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Haven't watched film.  What does it show?

 

No one is "always open".  Why mention that?  I didn't. 

 

Diggs isn't testing the safety over the top.  His YBC (7.6) is his lowest since he has been in Buffalo.  The deep safety would have to run back toward the LOS to find Diggs on most catches. 

 

Why is Brady focusing on Diggs if he's either not open, dropping balls or not otherwise catching all those targets?  Tell us.

 

If "he's an average WR2" then....ok.  What's your point?

 

I mentioned that because you are claiming he needs more targets.  My claim is there's a reason why they aren't looking his way.

 

Because Diggs is a proven commodity and a threat.  Even in a skid, he would still be dangerous and accounted for.  Diggs is who the defensive coordinators worry about, not Davis.  I agree with that Bengals defensive back that said Davis runs 3 routes and that's it.

 

My point is an average #2 doesn't deserve more targets.  We have better options to go to elsewhere.  He will still have his big chunk plays here and there which he's good for but he needs to be our #4 option behind Diggs, Kincaid and Shakir...maybe Knox.

15 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

It is frustrating to see how many people look at catch% and have literally no clue how that stat works. Then they think because that % is low it must mean Gabe has bad hands. I literally want to slam my head into a concrete wall with the number of posters who reference this. Having said that his catch% is a by product of deeper routes and deeper routes are a by product of his poor route tree which is the actual problem with Gabe. His hands, while not perfect, are not even close to as big an issue as how limited he is with his route structure. If all this was already discussed my bad.  

 

Its because if he's a limited route tree guy with not much YAC ability, you better be at least a great possession WR which he's not.  That's why the catch % comes in.

 

[Royale with Cheese]

What's funny is NFL Live was discussing the Bills/Cowboys game.

According to whoever was on there, Gabe Davis in the last 5 games has a 36% catch percentage...by far the worst in the league in that stretch.

Edited December 13, 2023 by Royale with Cheese

[Mikie2times]

5 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

What's funny is NFL Live was discussing the Bills/Cowboys game.

According to whoever was on there, Gabe Davis in the last 5 games has a 36% catch percentage...by far the worst in the league in that stretch.

And what does that 36% tell you? I’m curious how you interpret that number. 

[H2o]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

lol what?  you guys with your straw man arguments. no, not one of the all time greats, lol but keep going!!  I also didn't say that Diggs does not see more attention than Davis.  I correctly noted that he is doubles a minority of his routes---same as better WR1s are.  nice try. 

 

anyway, I'm aware of Davis's limitations, so there's no table banging here--just pointing the poor arguments against him---while at the same time highlighting that this team's WR1 is not producing for the last 2 months.  Does anyone think Diggs is has been a top WR 1 since mid October? with a QB like Josh Allen?

 

Diggs has 8 drops this year already--he had 8 all year in 2022. His rating is his 2nd lowest of his career. This can't be brought up at all in a discussion about the production of the WR1 and the WR2 of the team? Tampa and Philly, you say?  How did Diggs compare to Davis in those 2 games? 

 

 

I summarized it all for you. Fairly simple to understand for those with a 5th grade reading comprehension or better. I also outlined the difference between Diggs and Davis in the 2 games you were trying to use as a banner for your "Gabe deserves more targets" crusade. Your defense of this JAG, supposed #2 WR has more holes than your Gabe Davis underoos. Don't act like you weren't advocating for him now. 

Edited December 13, 2023 by H2o

[BananaB]

16 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

And what does that 36% tell you? I’m curious how you interpret that number. 

 

16 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

And what does that 36% tell you? I’m curious how you interpret that number. 

He’s not getting many targets since Brady took over. But hey, Shakir was hardly getting any targets at the start of the season but has made the best of every opportunity and he eventually started getting more. At some point Davis’s opportunities were gonna decrease with the way he has been playing. It’s up to him to make the most of his chances to get more involved. It’s a production league. 

[Sherlock Holmes]

33 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

Force the ball to an open WR?  That's a take...

 

Anyway, Dorsey increased Davis's targets by 50% over Daboll.  The result was:  For the full season last year, Davis had nearly 1000 yards and 8 TDs. (Diggs had about 1500 yards and 11 tds on 55% more targets than Davis). That's now considered "low production"?  That's laughable.

This year, it continued until Brady took over--he seems to think forcing it to Diggs on short routes (despite 6 drops this year) is a better way to go.  It isn't .

 

 

In his last 7 games, Diggs has been targeted 11-12  times in 4 games.  He caught only 54% of those for a total of only 226 yards.   Davis has had 2 games of 12 targets, caught 15 of them for 2 TDs and 192 yards. 

 

WHILE Davis has gotten 2, 0 and 2 targets in 3 of the the last 5 games, Diggs has gotten 7, 8 and 11 targets in the same games and produced 86, 27 and 24 yards.  It's not because he is doubled all the time (a fallacy--the best WRs in the NFL get doubles no more than 30% of their routes).  Plus, Diggs runs such short routes, "a safety over the top" isn't involved much.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This has been posted many times (and should be obvious to any viewer), but Kincaid is running short out routes almost exclusively.  Would it be better to Davis to run 4 yard outs so he could have a better catch %?  lol.

 

your complete  focus is on the catch % whereas his value is in the 1st downs, the yards and the TDs.   Who is dogging Cooper, Hopkins,  Higgins, Evans, Ridley, OBJ for having catch % in the mid 50's? 

 

 

not part of this discussion, but OK...

Cooper Kupp catches everything...

[JTown]

On 12/12/2023 at 3:52 PM, Ethan in Cleveland said:

Josh makes mistakes too. It's perfectly OK to point that out. He's a great QB but he's far from perfect.  Despite what you see on this board a lot you can be a fan and even a fan of your fav player and still criticize a bad play.

Agree.

Getting Knox back should help too. Knox can attract more underneath coverage and allow Davis to get open deep more often. 

That wasn't much of an option against KC DL but there should be more deep shot chances in the coming weeks as Allen will have more time in the pocket. 

I vehemently disagree.   Dallas defense will pressure Josh a hell of a lot more than KC did.

Even more worrisome is I don't think that our secondary will have much success against Dallas  WR.

I hope that I am wrong on both counts. 

 

Go Bills 

[NewEra]

30 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

What's funny is NFL Live was discussing the Bills/Cowboys game.

According to whoever was on there, Gabe Davis in the last 5 games has a 36% catch percentage...by far the worst in the league in that stretch.

Didn’t you know that Josh sucks?  We need a better QB so Gabe can shine!

[GoBills808]

31 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

And what does that 36% tell you? I’m curious how you interpret that number. 

If during that stretch if he's got good ADOT/ypc it means at best he's a high variance target

 

If he doesn't it means he's an inefficient one and really neither suggests he should be getting more looks

[Mikie2times]

25 minutes ago, BananaB said:

 

He’s not getting many targets since Brady took over. But hey, Shakir was hardly getting any targets at the start of the season but has made the best of every opportunity and he eventually started getting more. At some point Davis’s opportunities were gonna decrease with the way he has been playing. It’s up to him to make the most of his chances to get more involved. It’s a production league. 

The main thing it tells me is when targeted he isn't converting a lot of those targets into catches. Which could be because most of his targets are downfield. Which again, indicates his route tree being more of a impactor to his catch% than his hands.

 

For me, I would rather see Gabe as a 4 or 5 WR.  With his route tree, he actually fits that mold rather well but I don't believe that would ever happen with us and fear if we did retain him we would still utilize him more in the passing game than a 4 or 5 based on familiarity and the rest our WR core sucking.

 

The fact that we can't get Gabe going is an issue, but it was always going to be an issue. We can't afford to build an offense around getting a guy with 3-4 routes going. He's also our best blocking WR so it's not optimal to try his hand on screens (although he is physical and in some ways it was actually nice seeing a little of that vs Tampa).

 

The fact that Diggs is performing about as bad as he has in his Buffalo career the last 3 games is a problem. A really big problem given how limited our options are. I hope he can get it figured out or heal or correct whatever the driver is. His performance has been bad and you can see it, but it's all over his advanced stats as well. 

Edited December 13, 2023 by Mikie2times

[NewEra]

7 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

The main thing it tells me is when targeted he isn't converting a lot of those targets into catches. Which could be because most of his targets are downfield. Which again, indicates his route tree being more of a impactor to his catch% than his hands.

 

For me, I would rather see Gabe as a 4 or 5 WR.  With his route tree, he actually fits that mold rather well but I don't believe that would ever happen with us and fear if we did retain him we would still utilize him more in the passing game than a 4 or 5 based on familiarity and the rest our WR core sucking.

 

The fact that we can't get Gabe going is an issue, but it was always going to be an issue. We can't afford to build an offense around getting a guy with 3-4 routes going. He's also our best blocking WR so it's not optimal to try his hand on screens (although he is physical and in some ways it was actually nice seeing a little of that vs Tampa).

 

The fact that Diggs is performing about as bad as he has in his Buffalo career the last 3 games is a problem. A really big problem given how limited our options are. I hope he can get it figured out or heal or correct whatever the driver is. His performance has been bad and you can see it, but it's all over his advanced stats as well. 

So you think he should get less targets.  Got it.  

[Mikie2times]

12 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

If during that stretch if he's got good ADOT/ypc it means at best he's a high variance target

 

If he doesn't it means he's an inefficient one and really neither suggests he should be getting more looks

Sort of interesting how well he did the one time we featured him in screens and with a low ADOT (TB). To your point, I don't know if that means we should change anything as far as trying to get him the ball in those screens. Just interesting.

Just now, NewEra said:

So you think he should get less targets.  Got it.  

I never was arguing for more?

[BananaB]

2 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

The main thing it tells me is when targeted he isn't converting a lot of those targets into catches. Which could be because most of his targets are downfield. Which again, indicates his route tree being more of a impactor to his catch% than his hands.

 

For me, I would rather see Gabe as a 4 or 5 WR.  With his route tree, he actually fits that mold rather well but I don't believe that would ever happen with us and fear if we did retain him we would still utilize him more in the passing game than a 4 or 5 based on familiarity and the rest our WR core sucking.

 

The fact that we can't get Gabe going is an issue, but it was always going to be an issue. We can't afford to build an offense around getting a guy with 3-4 routes. The fact that Diggs is performing about as bad as he has in his Buffalo career the last 3 games is a problem. A really big problem given how limited our options are. I hope he can get it figured out or heal or correct whatever the driver is. His performance has been bad and you can see it, but it's all over his advanced stats as well. 

Totally agree. Beane really whiffed this off-season filling holes at the WR position. I didn’t think it could get as bad as last year but I feel it has. I thought last season Davis and McKenzie could get the job done but I was totally wrong, like most people were. They deserved that opportunity though. At this point I think Beane doubled down on the wrong guy. McKenzie wasn’t good at the slot position but he had a place here and was productive when only getting worked in for a few plays. Harty has been bad, really bad most of the season and he’s the guy Beane gave decent money. Probably should have stuck with McKenzie and found a guy to take over Gabes position. 

[NewEra]

2 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

Sort of interesting how well he did the one time we featured him in screens and with a low ADOT (TB). To your point, I don't know if that means we should change anything as far as trying to get him the ball in those screens. Just interesting.

I never was arguing for more?

Tampa also has the 2nd worst pass d in the league…..while playing in the same division as Carr, Ridder and Bryce you. 
 

-  ok, thanks for answering.  You don’t want him getting anymore targets than he already gets….you’d rather he get less as a WR4-5

[Mikie2times]

1 minute ago, NewEra said:

Tampa also has the 2nd worst pass d in the league…..while playing in the same division as Carr, Ridder and Bryce you. 
 

-  ok, thanks for answering.  You don’t want him getting anymore targets than he already gets….you’d rather he get less as a WR4-5

Correct. I was just commenting on that Tampa thing how low his average depth of target was. So I was pondering if he could be a good fit to be featured in our horrible WR screen game because in that Tampa game he was rather good at it, but agree, I think Tampa plays off and mostly zone. It was probably more Bowles alignment than Davis excelling in that area.