Israel and Ukraine: Why Support Funding One But Not the Other?

[The Frankish Reich]

A question for our so-called America First proponents. They take what would be traditionally call a realpolitik approach to the US involvement in world affairs. Democracy and self-determination are laudable goals around the world, but sometimes you gotta make deals with and help out countries that aren't exactly the finest examples of democracy and rule of law if it's in America's interest to do so.

 

So ... I hear, "Ukraine and Zelensky are corrupt too. And this territorial fight between Ukraine and Russia is their thing that's been going on for a century or more. A vital U.S. interest isn't at stake. We shouldn't be sending more money there to prolong what is at best a stalemate. We should also be concerned with the geopolitical effects of further supporting this: Russia is now aligned more closely with Iran and North Korea, making the world a more dangerous place for America. No more aid for Ukraine."

 

But I also hear, "Israel was attacked by a small sliver of land run by a terrorist organization. That is a terrible thing, and they have the right to fight back, and we should help finance them in their righteous fight. To hell with the geopolitical implications: if it brings Iran/Hezbollah into the conflict, or if it destroys the Abraham accords, or if it foments hatred of America throughout the entire Arab and Islamic world, well, then, we'll just have to deal with that. More aid for Israel, please."

 

I don't get it. They seem alike to me. An evil force attacked, without cause, the civilian population of the other, either through bombing of city centers (Kiev, Kharkiv, etc) or through terrorist raids on civilians, killing them and taking hostages. To me, both righteous causes, and we should support the victims, but we should also advance America's interest by making sure that our aid doesn't make the geopolitical environment worse. I see more downside to funding Israel unconditionally. MAGA types seem to see the opposite. Why? Shouldn't they say we don't have a dog in either fight? Let's spend that money on closing the border or whatever?

[sherpa]

Great post.

My view is that we should support both, but it would be extremely valuable if we had the leadership to form coalitions among similar nations as part of that strategy.

We no longer have that leadership.

When I say leadership, I mean the ability to cause Arab leaders to provide and/or support some kind of Palestinian solution.

Voting in Hamas, supporting Hezbollah or in any way looking the other way as Iran causes hate, death and destruction among those tortured people is clearly not working.

 

In addition, I would aver that we simply must support Israel, as long as they don't do anything crazy.

I don't think an offensive attack on Iran would be "crazy," nor do I think their current posture re Hamas and Gaza are crazy.

 

Vengeance would be crazy in my view, but they are not there.

 

[Precision]

We should fund our interests in all of the couple of dozen conflicts around the world.  Also, let's be fair and throw 75 to 100 billion at each conflict so as not to give preferential treatment to Ukraine.  When it's all said and done, we're only talking about another 2 trillion dollars.  What's that to a country already 33 trillion in debt.

 

 

[BillStime]

3 hours ago, sherpa said:

We no longer have that leadership.

 

Can you back this up with facts and figures?

 

 

[Tiberius]

 

[sherpa]

47 minutes ago, BillStime said:

 

Can you back this up with facts and figures?

 

 

 

Facts.

 

Since we abandoned our friends in disgrace in Afghanistan, the Russians have invaded the Ukraine.

The Iranian led Hamas has invaded Israel.

The Saudis have orchestrated a reduction in OPEC oil supply.

China is far more aggressive in matters military.

 

Figures.

You want a number on people killed?

You want a number on fuel price inflation?

 

Biden has been a disaster.

 

 

 

[The Frankish Reich]

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2023-11-06/israel-hamas-latest-middle-east-wars-spur-us-inflation-and-recession?srnd=undefined&sref=htOHjx5Y

 

Niall Ferguson, a conservative, agrees with me regarding the geopolitical dangers of giving Israel carte blanche and of having the Middle East conflict escalate.

 

 

[BillStime]

2 minutes ago, sherpa said:

Since we abandoned our friends in disgrace in Afghanistan, the Russians have invaded the Ukraine.

 

Who abandoned Afghanistan and handed it over to the Taliban?  Who is the current leader of Afghanistan?  Why did Trump release him from jail - as well as 5,000 Taliban prisoners?

 

 

2 minutes ago, sherpa said:

The Iranian led Hamas has invaded Israel.

 

 

Not Biden

 

3 minutes ago, sherpa said:

The Saudis have orchestrated a reduction in OPEC oil supply.

 

You seem surprised that the Saudis, who assassinated an American citizen, Jamal Khashoggi, and gave Trump/Jared $2 BILLION DOLLARS for the cover up wouldn't purposely get political in an upcoming presidential election year to get his fellow terrorist re-elected?  Idiots.

 

5 minutes ago, sherpa said:

China is far more aggressive in matters military.

 

 

Hoax

 

None of what you wrote above addresses your VIEW:

 

4 hours ago, sherpa said:

My view is that we should support both, but it would be extremely valuable if we had the leadership to form coalitions among similar nations as part of that strategy.

 

 

Go list all the countries that are supporting the War in Ukraine and Israel.

 

I'll wait.

 

Idiots

 

 

 

 

[The Frankish Reich]

1 hour ago, Precision said:

We should fund our interests in all of the couple of dozen conflicts around the world.  Also, let's be fair and throw 75 to 100 billion at each conflict so as not to give preferential treatment to Ukraine.  When it's all said and done, we're only talking about another 2 trillion dollars.  What's that to a country already 33 trillion in debt.

 

 

So you would support no aid to Ukraine, and no aid to Israel? That's consistent. I think it's a bad idea, but it is consistently bad.

What I'm hearing from the Republicans in DC is inconsistent AND bad policy.

[Doc]

4 hours ago, The Frankish Reich said:

A question for our so-called America First proponents. They take what would be traditionally call a realpolitik approach to the US involvement in world affairs. Democracy and self-determination are laudable goals around the world, but sometimes you gotta make deals with and help out countries that aren't exactly the finest examples of democracy and rule of law if it's in America's interest to do so.

 

So ... I hear, "Ukraine and Zelensky are corrupt too. And this territorial fight between Ukraine and Russia is their thing that's been going on for a century or more. A vital U.S. interest isn't at stake. We shouldn't be sending more money there to prolong what is at best a stalemate. We should also be concerned with the geopolitical effects of further supporting this: Russia is now aligned more closely with Iran and North Korea, making the world a more dangerous place for America. No more aid for Ukraine."

 

But I also hear, "Israel was attacked by a small sliver of land run by a terrorist organization. That is a terrible thing, and they have the right to fight back, and we should help finance them in their righteous fight. To hell with the geopolitical implications: if it brings Iran/Hezbollah into the conflict, or if it destroys the Abraham accords, or if it foments hatred of America throughout the entire Arab and Islamic world, well, then, we'll just have to deal with that. More aid for Israel, please."

 

I don't get it. They seem alike to me. An evil force attacked, without cause, the civilian population of the other, either through bombing of city centers (Kiev, Kharkiv, etc) or through terrorist raids on civilians, killing them and taking hostages. To me, both righteous causes, and we should support the victims, but we should also advance America's interest by making sure that our aid doesn't make the geopolitical environment worse. I see more downside to funding Israel unconditionally. MAGA types seem to see the opposite. Why? Shouldn't they say we don't have a dog in either fight? Let's spend that money on closing the border or whatever?

 

This.  We've wasted enough money on them and they have no chance to win and will eventually have to give up part of their country.

[sherpa]

3 minutes ago, BillStime said:

 

Who abandoned Afghanistan and handed it over to the Taliban?  Who is the current leader of Afghanistan?  Why did Trump release him from jail - as well as 5,000 Taliban prisoners?

 

 

 

Not Biden

 

 

You seem surprised that the Saudis, who assassinated an American citizen, Jamal Khashoggi, and gave Trump/Jared $2 BILLION DOLLARS for the cover up wouldn't purposely get political in an upcoming presidential election year to get his fellow terrorist re-elected?  Idiots.

 

 

Hoax

 

None of what you wrote above addresses your VIEW:

 

 

 

Go list all the countries that are supporting the War in Ukraine and Israel.

 

I'll wait.

 

Idiots

 

 

 

 

 

I answered your question, which really needed no answer.

 

Trump approved a withdrawal from Afghanistan that had an out, if certain criteria was not met.

There is no possible way to guess how he would have responded given the eventual circumstances.

 

The Biden Administration fled from the area, leaving many who are now dead, many who are still hunted, and presided over the most disgraceful military action I have seen in my lifetime.

Worse than Carter's insane hostage rescue attempt. 

 

There is no doubt that the Biden withdrawal was a disgraceful embarrassment.

The Saudis, resistant to Biden, who asked them to not follow through, re OPEC production cuts,  and then to delay the announcement until after the US mid term elections did what they did. 

 

Russia invades the Ukraine. China gets increasingly aggressive. Hamas invades Israel.

 

Great track record, and you can "wait" as long as you want.

I'm guessing the wait for him to be gone won't be long, thankfully.  

Not soon enough, but not long.

 

 

 

 

 

[BillStime]

13 minutes ago, sherpa said:

Trump approved a withdrawal from Afghanistan that had an out, if certain criteria was not met.

There is no possible way to guess how he would have responded given the eventual circumstances.

Trump gave Afghanistan away to fn terrorists. 
 

He didn’t even include the existing leaders of the Afghan government that the US supported when he negotiated w terrorists.

 

Own it. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Tiberius]

Everything bad in the world is Biden's fault. Brilliant! 

 

F'n moron 

[Precision]

Just now, The Frankish Reich said:

So you would support no aid to Ukraine, and no aid to Israel? That's consistent. I think it's a bad idea, but it is consistently bad.

What I'm hearing from the Republicans in DC is inconsistent AND bad policy.

I didn't realize that the 75 to 100 billion dollars already given to Ukraine was no aid, must be the new math.  How much more do we send there, another 50+ billion a year until the war ends?  When does it end or what if it doesn't?

 

In the meantime, how much are we willing and able to send to Israel and the rest of the world?  When the conflict in Ukraine ends how many regions of the world will we have neglected in order to fund a lost cause?

 

I'll give you a consistently bad idea, paying 879 billion in FY2023 to service the debt.  What I'm hearing from DC Democrats is that a 1.7 trillion-dollar deficit in FY2023 doesn't matter because they don't know how to do math.

[sherpa]

Trump did not preside over horror of the shameful US performance at the end.

He didn't leave hundreds or probably thousands there to be killed, along with billions of US equipment.

Biden did.

  

Own it.

[JaCrispy]

Good post Frank…I agree with your premise…This is why I support funding neither…The same logic as Sherpa, but just the other way around…

 

Imo, America needs to stay out of foreign wars…We’re too much in debt…👍

 

 

Edited November 8, 2023 by JaCrispy

[BillStime]

10 minutes ago, sherpa said:

Trump did not preside over horror of the shameful US performance at the end.

He didn't leave hundreds or probably thousands there to be killed, along with billions of US equipment.

Biden did.

  

Own it.

 

Gotta love these cowards who are too afraid to respond directly to a post.  
 

You, Karen Psyop  and @Tommy Callahan are just pathetic cowards.

 

Meanwhile - the US spent over $2 TRILLION dollars in Afghanistan and Trump pissed that investment down the drain giving it away to fking terrorists.

 

Never forget:

 

 

 

[Tiberius]

15 minutes ago, Precision said:

I didn't realize that the 75 to 100 billion dollars already given to Ukraine was no aid, must be the new math.  How much more do we send there, another 50+ billion a year until the war ends?  When does it end or what if it doesn't?

 

In the meantime, how much are we willing and able to send to Israel and the rest of the world?  When the conflict in Ukraine ends how many regions of the world will we have neglected in order to fund a lost cause?

 

I'll give you a consistently bad idea, paying 879 billion in FY2023 to service the debt.  What I'm hearing from DC Democrats is that a 1.7 trillion-dollar deficit in FY2023 doesn't matter because they don't know how to do math.

Yup, if we mind our own business I'm sure putin won't start any more trouble. You are literally saying freedom is too expensive, 

 

Totally disagree

[JaCrispy]

46 minutes ago, Precision said:

I didn't realize that the 75 to 100 billion dollars already given to Ukraine was no aid, must be the new math.  How much more do we send there, another 50+ billion a year until the war ends?  When does it end or what if it doesn't?

 

In the meantime, how much are we willing and able to send to Israel and the rest of the world?  When the conflict in Ukraine ends how many regions of the world will we have neglected in order to fund a lost cause?

 

I'll give you a consistently bad idea, paying 879 billion in FY2023 to service the debt.  What I'm hearing from DC Democrats is that a 1.7 trillion-dollar deficit in FY2023 doesn't matter because they don't know how to do math.

I wouldn’t be surprised if some of the aid is being laundered, and funneled back to US politicians (Republicans AND Democrats who push the war effort)…

 

 

Edited November 8, 2023 by JaCrispy

[BillStime]

Gotta love these Putin suckers 

 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

6 hours ago, The Frankish Reich said:

A question for our so-called America First proponents. They take what would be traditionally call a realpolitik approach to the US involvement in world affairs. Democracy and self-determination are laudable goals around the world, but sometimes you gotta make deals with and help out countries that aren't exactly the finest examples of democracy and rule of law if it's in America's interest to do so.

 

So ... I hear, "Ukraine and Zelensky are corrupt too. And this territorial fight between Ukraine and Russia is their thing that's been going on for a century or more. A vital U.S. interest isn't at stake. We shouldn't be sending more money there to prolong what is at best a stalemate. We should also be concerned with the geopolitical effects of further supporting this: Russia is now aligned more closely with Iran and North Korea, making the world a more dangerous place for America. No more aid for Ukraine."

 

But I also hear, "Israel was attacked by a small sliver of land run by a terrorist organization. That is a terrible thing, and they have the right to fight back, and we should help finance them in their righteous fight. To hell with the geopolitical implications: if it brings Iran/Hezbollah into the conflict, or if it destroys the Abraham accords, or if it foments hatred of America throughout the entire Arab and Islamic world, well, then, we'll just have to deal with that. More aid for Israel, please."

 

I don't get it. They seem alike to me. An evil force attacked, without cause, the civilian population of the other, either through bombing of city centers (Kiev, Kharkiv, etc) or through terrorist raids on civilians, killing them and taking hostages. To me, both righteous causes, and we should support the victims, but we should also advance America's interest by making sure that our aid doesn't make the geopolitical environment worse. I see more downside to funding Israel unconditionally. MAGA types seem to see the opposite. Why? Shouldn't they say we don't have a dog in either fight? Let's spend that money on closing the border or whatever?

when did democrats become so pro war? 
 

I personally don’t understand why they must be stitched together. Each should be voted for on its own accord imo. I’d vote for each, with separate strings attached and hard oversight requirements. 
 

Is there an off ramp to Ukraine or is this a new recurring perpetual entitlement program until we run out of 20 year old Ukrainian males? Are we ever going to step up pressure on Russia with sone diplomacy intervention?? 

As far as Israel goes their opponents tack death to America at the end of their slogans, so there’s that. They oppress their own people steal their aid and use them as pawns of war. They need to go. 

[Precision]

1 hour ago, Tiberius said:

Yup, if we mind our own business I'm sure putin won't start any more trouble. You are literally saying freedom is too expensive, 

 

Totally disagree

When we're 33 trillion in debt and running 1.7 trillion yearly budget deficits unbounded aid to anyone should be scrutinized.  Ukraine has already received 75 to 100 billion from the US, how much more do we give?   

[TSOL]

Ukraine is kind of a dirty war. Eastern Europe is not really a righteous geopolitical region. 

Israel is God's chosen people. So in terms of spirituality,  which I personally respect, I am far more supportive of Israel's cause. 

[Doc]

3 hours ago, sherpa said:

Trump did not preside over horror of the shameful US performance at the end.

He didn't leave hundreds or probably thousands there to be killed, along with billions of US equipment.

Biden did.

  

Own it.

 

This stuff wouldn't have happened under Trump.  Our adversaries see a weak President and are taking advantage.

[The Frankish Reich]

3 hours ago, TSOL said:

Israel is God's chosen people. So in terms of spirituality,  which I personally respect, I am far more supportive of Israel's cause. 

And it's perfectly fair for you to have this opinion. But it isn't an "America First" opinion, since it isn't based on what's best for Americans. Rather, it is based on the idea that we ought to step up to support people who have a religious claim for our support, whether or not it materially benefits America.

[ExiledInIllinois]

My grandfather (a New Dealer that hated FDR and called him a "crippled bastard", BUT voted for him 4 times because it was in the best interest of the country yet against his own self-interest because he was working and doing okay) would say:

 

"Republicans fight with money, Democrats fight with guns."

 

 

[John from Riverside]

8 hours ago, Precision said:

When we're 33 trillion in debt and running 1.7 trillion yearly budget deficits unbounded aid to anyone should be scrutinized.  Ukraine has already received 75 to 100 billion from the US, how much more do we give?   

As much as needed

It’s a sunk cost

8 hours ago, TSOL said:

Ukraine is kind of a dirty war. Eastern Europe is not really a righteous geopolitical region. 

Israel is God's chosen people. So in terms of spirituality,  which I personally respect, I am far more supportive of Israel's cause. 

Separation of church and state thing that you need to realize

[Precision]

2 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

As much as needed

It’s a sunk cost

Separation of church and state thing that you need to realize

So, you're willing to give up your Social Security benefit for the war in Ukraine?

 

 

Sunk Cost Fallacy - The phenomenon whereby a person is reluctant to abandon a strategy or course of action because they have invested heavily in it, even when it is clear that abandonment would be more beneficial.

"the sunk-cost fallacy creeps into a lot of major financial decisions"

Edited November 8, 2023 by Precision

[Tiberius]

11 hours ago, Precision said:

When we're 33 trillion in debt and running 1.7 trillion yearly budget deficits unbounded aid to anyone should be scrutinized.  Ukraine has already received 75 to 100 billion from the US, how much more do we give?   

We could raise taxes a little if we need to. Would help damp inflation, too! 

 

Freedom isn't Free! 

[Tommy Callahan]

12 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

We could raise taxes a little if we need to. Would help damp inflation, too! 

 

Freedom isn't Free! 

Federal Receipts are at near record highs.  

 

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/FGRECPT

 

3 hours ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

Republicans fight with money, Democrats fight with guns."

 

Not so much since citizens united.

 

unless you're talking gun violence in dem strongholds.

 

 

 

[BillStime]

18 minutes ago, Precision said:

So, you're willing to give up your Social Security benefit for the war in Ukraine?

 

 

Sunk Cost Fallacy - The phenomenon whereby a person is reluctant to abandon a strategy or course of action because they have invested heavily in it, even when it is clear that abandonment would be more beneficial.

"the sunk-cost fallacy creeps into a lot of major financial decisions"

Posts like this remind me of those idiots who are tearing down posters of Israeli children kidnapped by Hamas.

 

Putin loves their sponsorship.

 

 

[aristocrat]

We could have had a peace deal with Russia already but the Biden admin nixed it. Instead we have a forever war on our hands

[All_Pro_Bills]

28 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

We could raise taxes a little if we need to. Would help damp inflation, too! 

 

Freedom isn't Free! 

The war in Ukraine has already cost that country a generation of young men either KIA, wounded, or leaving the country to avoid conscription.  Dumping billions more down that hole isn't going to change that and for all intents and purposes the war is lost.  Zelensky and others believing otherwise are delusional at this point.  You won't hear a peep out of anyone in Congress or the Administration suggesting any tax increase coming into an Election year.

 

As for Israel, this quote from David Stockman perfectly sums up my feelings, "If Israel wants to operate a modern-day Sparta, it needs to tap its own taxpayers first".  Currently, Israel spends a paltry 5% of GDP on its military. 

 

 

Edited November 8, 2023 by All_Pro_Bills

[Tiberius]

35 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

The war in Ukraine has already cost that country a generation of young men either KIA, wounded, or leaving the country to avoid conscription.  Dumping billions more down that hole isn't going to change that and for all intents and purposes the war is lost.  Zelensky and others believing otherwise are delusional at this point.  You won't hear a peep out of anyone in Congress or the Administration suggesting any tax increase coming into an Election year.

 

As for Israel, this quote from David Stockman perfectly sums up my feelings, "If Israel wants to operate a modern-day Sparta, it needs to tap its own taxpayers first".  Currently, Israel spends a paltry 5% of GDP on its military. 

 

 

No, Ukraine will win 

[BillStime]

38 minutes ago, aristocrat said:

We could have had a peace deal with Russia already but the Biden admin nixed it. Instead we have a forever war on our hands

 

Hoax

 

[All_Pro_Bills]

29 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

No, Ukraine will win 

You should get your plan out to them immediately. 

[Tiberius]

5 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

You should get your plan out to them immediately. 

Rome wern't built in a day 

[Doc]

34 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

You should get your plan out to them immediately. 

 

Fantastical thinking isn't a plan...

[Tiberius]

1 minute ago, Doc said:

 

Fantastical thinking isn't a plan...

But surrender to terrorist Russia is? 

[All_Pro_Bills]

5 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

But surrender to terrorist Russia is? 

What exactly would we be surrendering other than an open-ended infinite funding commitment with absolutely no conditions tied to aid for a war that cannot be won?  And I'm being generous as the Administration has never even taken the time to define and communicate to the public exactly what "winning" looks like from an American perspective.