Jordan Palmer on Allen - It’s more about the loss Brian Daboll, who Bellicheck says is elite

[Straight Hucklebuck]

2 minutes ago, NewEra said:

For sure.  My point is- it’s better to have one consistent great mind whispering in the QBs ear for his career than having several voices, systems, concepts and verbiage.  Possibly changing every 2-3 years.  
 

How many top tier QBs are being coached head coaches that weren’t OCs?   Justin Herbert and Lamar. 1 playoff win between them.

 

Again…..there’s more than one way to skin a  cat….. and there’s clearly a best way to skin one.  

Who is saying he “needs”?  It helps.  Do you think Mahomes would be the same without reid?  

I think Mahomes is great and would work in any system. 

 

His vision is incredible. 

 

If you stuck him on the Cardinals today, they'd become more competitive instantly. 

 

[SCBills]

8 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

Well if Josh needs the same OC-QB Coach for the duration of his career that's not reality. 

 

Such a goofy take. 

 

Not really.  

 

Mahomes/Reid

 

Burrow/Taylor

 

Lawrence/Pederson

 

Hurts/Sirianni

 

Tua/McDaniel

 

And on down the line... Allen is a rarity to be an elite QB paired with a Defensive HC.   Even Rodgers brought Hackett with him to go play for a Defensive minded HC in Salah.  

[BuffaloBillyG]

Belichick also thought Matt Patricia would make a great offensive coordinator and Joe Judge would be great as a QB coach. Maybe tap the breaks on Bill's opinion on this topic.

[Beck Water]

39 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Right…. But let’s not act like the current Josh allen is the same josh allen we saw under Daboll

 

Isn't he?

 

Josh Allen was a noted Wild Man in 2018 and 2019 - under Daboll.

 

In 2019 Game 4 vs NE, Josh threw 3 INT and had a fumble - under Daboll.  Josh has said there were "come to Jesus" meetings and he changed.

In 2020 Game 5 vs Tenn, Josh threw 2 INT.   Passer rating 'eh', but that was a bad game for Josh.

In 2021, Josh had 2 games with passer ratings (not total QBR, passer) below 65 - Jacksonville (62.7: 0 TD 2 INT, 1 fumble) and Atlanta (17: 0 TD 3 INT)

 

In 2022, Josh had 8 regular season games with a passer rating over 100, 7 games with 0 turnovers, and 6 games with a manageable 1 (total 13)

 

I think there's a bit of recency bias in believing Josh was uniformly focused, buttoned up and dedicated under Daboll and "is not the same" under Dorsey.  Josh has had some very very good, 'buttoned up' games under Dorsey. 

 

But I also think it's clear that something is amiss the last handful of games played, and Josh has fallen prey to some "stinkin' thinkin' ".  So then the question becomes, can Dorsey and Judge get him back on track?  And I don't know. 

 

Another point to consider: Daboll had the teaching of Josh at a different point in his career.  Don't overlook the difference between mentoring a raw prospect on his first contract who is motivated to prove he can "make it" as a top player in the NFL, vs mentoring a QB who is on the cover of Madden, has endorsements all over the place, and would cost the team $118M in dead money to move on - even if it's the same man doing the mentoring.

 

Edited September 14, 2023 by Beck Water

[DaBillsFanSince1973]

35 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

The only thing we have right now to go by is week 1 and the game plan was fine.  Allen was the predominant issue.

I agree he was, not a doubt. will not be able to really judge against the raiders but can still see the calls. Jury is still out on Dorsey. I really just don't see him becoming a great OC. too bad a well seasoned, successful OC could not of been brought in instead of learning on the fly as Dorsey has done, whom is still green in OC standards.

 

most importantly though, JA needs to get back on course and get his head in the game. not let a defense like the jets did, get in to his head. should not be a problem against the raiders?

[Beck Water]

11 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

1000% Josh is missing daboll.. that doesn't mean Brian is better than Josh [insert: do you mean Dorsey here?] or a miracle worker

 

They had a great Bond.. that Brian was able to develop since Josh was 22... Brian was able to rip into him and give him criticism... Without pushback

What all professional football players need..  a coach to coach them

 

I don't think Allen respects Dorsey enough to be coached by him... Sure he can play under him... But he doesn't fear and respect him enough to take in coaching

 

Allen had plenty of mentors before Dorsey... Craig bohl... Jordan Palmer , daboll assisted by McDermott

 

Now he's down to the guy that was working under daboll... This is the NFL

 

The best offensive minds in the game of American football would love to work with Josh Allen... But McDermott is fine with bringing up coaches from his tree... But remember Brian daboll was not from his coaching tree... he was the best person to develop Josh Allen

 

Josh is not a lost cause.. and he's one of the most talented football players in the last 30 years... sans position.. he's that good

 

And McDermott runs a good enough ship to win with him... He just needs to stop promoting with this heart and give it to the person that deserves the job

 

Josh deserves an upper echelon schemer... Because Josh's talent is upper echelon in a league full of elite talent

 

And there is a Kyle shanahan waiting in the wings who would kill for a guy with that talent

Since I have more football information stuck in my head the 90% of this board...

 

You do realize Nathaniel Hackett has the savant and guru label applied to him from a young age

 

LOL I expect I'm part of the "great unwashed" 90% LOL.

 

I agree with you that Josh and Daboll had a great bond.  I think you're correct that Brian was able to rip into him and critique him.  But that wasn't built instantly.  Josh has attributed the turning point to 2019 Game 4 vs NE when Josh had 4 turnovers (3 INT, 1 fumble) and got knocked out of the game with a concussion.  He's said he had conversations with Beane and McDermott after that, and made promises.

 

He needs to freakin' renew those vows.

 

I'm concerned you may be right about Allen not respecting Dorsey enough to be coached by him, but if that's true, than Josh Allen needs to check himself.  Because Dorsey was hired as OC, I believe, largely because Allen fought for him.  Allen has given Dorsey lots of credit as his QB coach - said that "my career changed when he walked through the door" (because of the coaching Dorsey gave him)

 

So man, would be crap, if Allen was willing to be coached by Dorsey as a QB coach, but now tunes him out and says "yeah, yeah, Ok" AFTER getting him the job as OC.

 

Regarding Nathaniel Hackett, I believe part of the perception of him is based on the belief (substantiated I think) that Doug Marrone was de facto OC in Buffalo and possibly in Jacksonville 2016-2018 and called the plays, and that Matt LaFleur was de facto OC in Green Bay and called the plays. 

Curious who you think is the upper echelon schemer who would love to take over with Josh?

 

Also curious if you've rewatched the Jets game and/or all 22, and what your thinking is?  My perception is that Josh had answers on most plays, and that he didn't take them.

[Royale with Cheese]

20 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Allen and Diggs are the best pitch and catch duo in the league. That’s what happens when you have a pair like that.  You score.

 

I’m not saying Dorsey isn’t worthy (although I might be in a few weeks).   I just think our scoring has much more to do with Allen/Diggs than Dorsey’s concepts, scheme, play calling. 

Right…. But let’s not act like the current Josh allen is the same josh allen we saw under Daboll

 

You can't be terrible everywhere accept two positions and be top scoring team.  That's my point.

 

Yes, when you have that pair you score.  What if you have more than 1?  Lets say 3 like the Bengals?  Or a Chiefs team that has the greatest tight end, best play caller and great offensive line?  It's talked about a lot that these teams are loaded with offensive talent and much better coaching.  If that's the case, how are we just behind the Chiefs last year in scoring and well above the Bengals?  It's either Allen/Diggs are a significantly better combo than what Burrow has or on par with what the Chiefs have....or maybe Dorsey isn't as bad as everyone makes him out to be.  

 

I'm not a huge fan Dorsey and have my gripes but last year with only one weapon, a terrible offensive line, no #2 WR, had to get Beasley/Brown off the street and no elite level RB....but we were ahead of the Bengals and just below the Chiefs in scoring.  I think a terrible OC with the ingredients Dorsey had last year, the offense would have been outside the top 10...probably top 15. 

 

And we did have our struggles with Dabol as well...he was hated on here.  We were 7-6 at one point in 2021, looked terrible opening day against the Steelers and got humiliated by the Jags. 

 

Our offense was clunkier last year with Dorsey, I absolutely can admit that.  But somehow we kept our production up.

I'm not a Dorsey apologist, I'm just not hard on him like most here are.  This is a big year for him to see if he improve our consistency and one game into the season, I'm not blaming him at all for MNF.  

 

Lets give him more time to see what he can do this year, especially if his QB can stop his bone headed turnovers.

If we are struggling again next week, then I will start getting a little concerned.  But not after last week.

13 minutes ago, DaBillsFanSince1973 said:

I agree he was, not a doubt. will not be able to really judge against the raiders but can still see the calls. Jury is still out on Dorsey. I really just don't see him becoming a great OC. too bad a well seasoned, successful OC could not of been brought in instead of learning on the fly as Dorsey has done, whom is still green in OC standards.

 

most importantly though, JA needs to get back on course and get his head in the game. not let a defense like the jets did, get in to his head. should not be a problem against the raiders?

 

If we struggle against the Raiders, I will start getting the bad feeling.

[Nephilim17]

10 hours ago, Mango said:

The more I sit with this the more I see it similar to Michael Irvin. You can tell Josh to play smart. You can yell at him. But you can’t signal to the public that he’s dumb (pointing at your head).

 

Palmer doesn’t help here. By publicly saying  “He misses Daboll” he’s also saying “Josh is broken and needs help”.

 

But also…WTF does Josh pay this guy for. It’s week 1 and this was a mess. How can a private QB coach be like “It’s the OC” after spending more time with him than anybody in the offseason? And then be like “The real secret sauce isn’t me or his current OC, it’s the HC of the Giants?

Exactly. Palmer saying this a) diminishes Josh's abilities (the greatness could only be harnessed by one man who isn't Josh and b) makes Palmer's influence seem insignificant.

 

Josh IS responsible for his poor play week 1 and league-leading turnover over long stretches of time and needs to be held accountable. But Palmer should be more careful when discussing his clients in public.

[Mango]

8 minutes ago, Nephilim17 said:

Exactly. Palmer saying this a) diminishes Josh's abilities (the greatness could only be harnessed by one man who isn't Josh and b) makes Palmer's influence seem insignificant.

 

Josh IS responsible for his poor play week 1 and league-leading turnover over long stretches of time and needs to be held accountable. But Palmer should be more careful when discussing his clients in public.

I think part of this also implies that Josh isn’t working with Palmer nearly as much. I think they likely interact all the time on a friendly basis. But I don’t think any sort of contracted personal coach would speak so freely. I’m not saying this is a swipe at Josh, or ill will, but this type of commentary seems to hint at a less professional relationship. 
 

In my industry if I’m an independent contractor for Apple, I would never go on record to talk about how much better Steve Jobs was. But I might if I just had a bunch of buddies who worked there. 

Edited September 14, 2023 by Mango

[NewEra]

47 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

I think Mahomes is great and would work in any system. 

 

His vision is incredible. 

 

If you stuck him on the Cardinals today, they'd become more competitive instantly. 

 

They’d become more competitive…..of course. But would he be as good as he is now, as he is in Andy Reid’s system with him in his ear like he’s been his entire nfl career?

 

 

[jletha]

12 hours ago, bouds said:

Allen looked fine without Daboll

Allen also had times where he looked lost with Daboll. The 2021 season had several stinkers (Pitt, Jax, Indy). It was on Daboll then to work it out and we had the best Bills team Id ever seen in my 35 years going into the playoffs.

 

Now the same task goes to Dorsey.

[NewEra]

28 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

You can't be terrible everywhere accept two positions and be top scoring team.  That's my point.

 

Yes, when you have that pair you score.  What if you have more than 1?  Lets say 3 like the Bengals?  Or a Chiefs team that has the greatest tight end, best play caller and great offensive line?  It's talked about a lot that these teams are loaded with offensive talent and much better coaching.  If that's the case, how are we just behind the Chiefs last year in scoring and well above the Bengals?  It's either Allen/Diggs are a significantly better combo than what Burrow has or on par with what the Chiefs have....or maybe Dorsey isn't as bad as everyone makes him out to be.  

 

I'm not a huge fan Dorsey and have my gripes but last year with only one weapon, a terrible offensive line, no #2 WR, had to get Beasley/Brown off the street and no elite level RB....but we were ahead of the Bengals and just below the Chiefs in scoring.  I think a terrible OC with the ingredients Dorsey had last year, the offense would have been outside the top 10...probably top 15. 

 

And we did have our struggles with Dabol as well...he was hated on here.  We were 7-6 at one point in 2021, looked terrible opening day against the Steelers and got humiliated by the Jags. 

 

Our offense was clunkier last year with Dorsey, I absolutely can admit that.  But somehow we kept our production up.

I'm not a Dorsey apologist, I'm just not hard on him like most here are.  This is a big year for him to see if he improve our consistency and one game into the season, I'm not blaming him at all for MNF.  

 

Lets give him more time to see what he can do this year, especially if his QB can stop his bone headed turnovers.

If we are struggling again next week, then I will start getting a little concerned.  But not after last week.

 

If we struggle against the Raiders, I will start getting the bad feeling.

I agree, let’s give him more time.  We don’t really have a choice at this point.  I’m sure Josh will turn things around.  Hopefully enough to still be an elite QB.

 

my only point in all of this is that having a good offensive head coach would be better for Josh than having a good defensive head coach.  

 

[Royale with Cheese]

Just now, NewEra said:

I agree, let’s give him more time.  We don’t really have a choice at this point.  I’m sure Josh will turn things around.  Hopefully enough to still be an elite QB.

 

my only point in all of this is that having a good offensive head coach would be better for Josh than having a good defensive head coach.  

 

 

If we don't score on the Raiders, I will start changing my tune.  Something needs to change if you're struggling against the Raiders.

[Doc]

3 hours ago, Reed83HOF said:

If that's how they truly thought an out wouldn't exist at the end of next season in that contract. Schoen rightfully saw the qb market about to explode and kept what they had. How much was that both him and dabolls choice vs the owner who badly wants Jones to succeed? 

 

I wouldn't read too much into the out.  Teams love to have them.  It depends on the player accepting it and I'm sure Jones and his camp jumped at the chance to get $81M over the first 2 years. 

 

And I can't see Schoen and Daboll going to Mara/Tisch after a couple years and needing a new QB because they failed to develop Jones and saying "just give us a few more years..."

Edited September 14, 2023 by Doc

[NewEra]

1 minute ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

If we don't score on the Raiders, I will start changing my tune.  Something needs to change if you're struggling against the Raiders.

👍🏻 

 

it’s a long season.  Let’s hope they (Josh and Ken) can right the ship and get us into the playoffs.  I realize Dorsey is also learning…..and I saw some stuff that I really liked on Monday.  We need more of it.  

[Low Positive]

1 minute ago, jletha said:

Allen also had times where he looked lost with Daboll. The 2021 season had several stinkers (Pitt, Jax, Indy). It was on Daboll then to work it out and we had the best Bills team Id ever seen in my 35 years going into the playoffs.

 

Now the same task goes to Dorsey.

We had the best Bills team in the playoffs. Going into the playoffs? We had that win against Atlanta where Josh had perhaps the worst stats of his career as a passer. Remember this play? If Matt Ryan doesn't get flagged for taunting, they probably score and that game could have gone sideways. 

 

[Fan boy '92]

So, did we ever find out what it was about the situation in Buffalo that had Daboll out the door? Brian Flores' lawsuit was a great read.

[jethro_tull]

I say Josh is smart enough and has been around long enough to take on more responsibility- 

he should be allowed to make the offensive play calls.  

having to be leashed to an on the job training OC is holding him an the team back.  

[Chaos]

3 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

I don't agree with this.  If you have a guy that you trust to run the offense, you give them the keys.

You miss the point. I am responding to Josh needs to get used to a new OC every couple of years.  This is a formula for never having continuity on the offensive side of the ball. This is a competitive disadvantage compared to elite situations like Brady and Mahomes.    If we had a long term OC who is very good, that provides the continuity, which is fine. But the premise I responded to is rolling over OCs constantly.  Not sure what teams have won champions with a HC who disowns the offense and has new OCs every couple of years 

[Mango]

21 minutes ago, jethro_tull said:

I say Josh is smart enough and has been around long enough to take on more responsibility- 

he should be allowed to make the offensive play calls.  

having to be leashed to an on the job training OC is holding him an the team back.  

How do we know he is not?
 

You say the team won’t give him enough play calling responsibilities.

 

I raise you they let him call the second half of the Colts pre-season game.

 

I would be floored if they let Allen put on a headset and call parts of a preseason game and didn’t give him some autonomy out on the field. 
 

Hell, the QB room has been his buddies for the last few years. How long did we keep his college roommate on the PS again?