Buffalo Fanatics has a point - Burrow is elite but JA is superior

[Gregg]

7 hours ago, BillMafia716ix said:

Josh has failed to beat Burrow or Mahomes when it really counts. Until he does that he’ll always be 3rd guy in line

 

Did Josh blow a 3-point lead with just 13 seconds left and the Chiefs starting at their own 25.

Was it Allen's fault that the Bengals kicked the crap out of the Bills by dominating the LOS on both sides of the ball.

 

Allen can better though. His "hero ball" ways are great when it works but sometimes it leads to bad turnovers. Josh needs to clean up that part of his game. Mahomes is the best QB in the game right now. Burrow is very talented, but I am not sure he is better than Allen. The Bengals just have a better team than the Bills. IMHO.

[C.Biscuit97]

On 5/6/2023 at 7:47 PM, PBF81 said:

 

Mahomes wouldn't have the degree of success here that he's had in KC.  

 

JMHO  

 

 

How does this make sense? So the guy whose best receiver was slow juju won’t be good here? Mahomes won’t benefit from having a top ranked defense?

 

the amount of hopes bills fans jump through to put down Mahomes is such a joke. They did it since he first was a starter and that joke of a training camp interception thread. 
 

the current qbs rankings 

 

mahomes

sizable gap

allen

burrow/ Herbert 

then whatever 

[Gregg]

1 minute ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

How does this make sense? So the guy whose best receiver was slow juju won’t be good here? Mahomes won’t benefit from having a top ranked defense?

 

the amount of hopes bills fans jump through to put down Mahomes is such a joke. They did it since he first was a starter and that joke of a training camp interception thread. 
 

the current qbs rankings 

 

mahomes

sizable gap

allen

burrow/ Herbert 

then whatever 

 

You have to put Rodgers up there as well. He will have a good WR group to work with. Unfortunately, the Jets will be a pain in the ass this season.

[C.Biscuit97]

4 minutes ago, Gregg said:

 

You have to put Rodgers up there as well. He will have a good WR group to work with. Unfortunately, the Jets will be a pain in the ass this season.

I would but he looked old last year. But you’re right. On paper, he definitely upgrade at receiver big time. 

[CincyBillsFan]

8 hours ago, BillMafia716ix said:

Josh has failed to beat Burrow or Mahomes when it really counts. Until he does that he’ll always be 3rd guy in line

I would accept this as true if Allen kicked off and played defense in those last 13 seconds in KC.

 

 

 

 

[PBF81]

3 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

How does this make sense? So the guy whose best receiver was slow juju won’t be good here? Mahomes won’t benefit from having a top ranked defense?

 

the amount of hopes bills fans jump through to put down Mahomes is such a joke. They did it since he first was a starter and that joke of a training camp interception thread. 
 

the current qbs rankings 

 

mahomes

sizable gap

allen

burrow/ Herbert 

then whatever 

 

JuJu, Kelce, ... meh.  

 

Easy there Festus.  I didn't say he would suck, I said he wouldn't be as good and I meant it marginally.  He'd still be great, I doubt he'd have won a SB here.  He'd be carrying McD & Beane the same as Allen now is.  Coaching, OL, and while you tout our "top-ranked defense," it played like a bottom-ranked defense in the playoffs generally speaking.  I've laid that out statistically several times here, although understood if you haven't seen it.  Then of course coaching, unless you're comparing Reid to McD that is.  

 

Look, I'm not one of these people in a dick-measuring competition with the other NFL teams over who has the best QB.  As I see it they're all different and do things that the others don't do.  IMO the differences between them is one of the more intriguing aspects of the game, much as Marino and Kelly were different, or Marino and Young for example.  If all QBs were identical in terms of style of play, how boring would that be. 

 

And frankly, one can win a SB without a top-ranked QB if the other areas of the team are solid.  Kelly was by no means the best QB in the league back in his day, although he was in the top bunch.  But our [truly] great D with Bruce, whom we have nothing even remotely resembling right now, and others, our OL then blows our OL today away whereas so does KC's OL today blow ours away, and very good but hardly superlative WRs and TEs, and yet we went to the SB despite not winning one, which again, IMO was due to coaching.  Put Parcells, Gibbs, or Johnson on the Bills back then, and Levy on their teams, and we'd be 2-2 or even 3-1 in SBs and we wouldn't all have Championship envy.  

 

Mahomes is good, but to suggest that all of the other elements that helped the Chiefs win SBs were irrelevant after him is ludicrous.  And frankly, if he would have been just as good here, then why haven't we even made a SB with Allen?  At the same time, put Allen on KC over the same period and IMO he's got his ring already.  Allen's hardly significantly worse, in fact, consider all of the games we've won specifically due to his rushing, and often when our own RBs were worthless.  Could Mahomes do that?  I doubt it.  But more importantly, why is it necessary on our team, for our QB to run that much that is ... part of my point.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 8, 2023 by PBF81

[ganesh]

21 hours ago, AuntieEm said:

 

Lol wish Allen could slip off the radar and focus.  Unfortunately he is such a talent when he is focused and dialed in that he's a player people like watching..  There's a good reason Bills keep getting Primetime games.  It's because Josh is such an entertaining player and I don't want that to change anytime soon.  

Absolutely.  The show he put on against the Patriots is one of the most STUNNING QB Play in the history of NFL.  He was that good!

[cle23]

Someone else put it best earlier in the thread.  Burrow is the better QB.  Allen is a better overall football player.  Allen is bigger, faster, and has a stronger arm.  Burrow is more accurate, and processes defense and coverages better.  Burrow seems to make better decisions overall, and Allen will give you more WOW plays.  

 

If I had to pick 1 of the 2 start start a franchise with, it would be Burrow, but mainly because I feel like Allen's style of play is much more unforgiving, at some point he will slow down, and his body will have problems from the hits.  It may be 3 years, it may be 10.  But Burrow is a guy I could see playing 15-20 more years.  Allen may too, but not the way he plays now.  And I trust Burrow more as a pure passer than Allen.

[Mikie2times]

3 hours ago, Gregg said:

 

Did Josh blow a 3-point lead with just 13 seconds left and the Chiefs starting at their own 25.

Was it Allen's fault that the Bengals kicked the crap out of the Bills by dominating the LOS on both sides of the ball.

 

Allen can better though. His "hero ball" ways are great when it works but sometimes it leads to bad turnovers. Josh needs to clean up that part of his game. Mahomes is the best QB in the game right now. Burrow is very talented, but I am not sure he is better than Allen. The Bengals just have a better team than the Bills. IMHO.

Based on expected points Buffalo had it's second worse offensive performance of the year the week prior against Miami. We would have lost that game to just about any other team, and it would have most certainly been on Allen. Yes, 2021 was, until this point, our year. Allen was dominant that year in the two games we played. 2020, we had our worst offensive performance in expected points in the playoffs against Baltimore. Then our 3rd worst against Kansas City. 

 

Buffalo has had 15 games with expected point value of 4 or less for just the offense since 2020.  2 came in the 2020 playoffs, and 2 came in the 2022 playoffs. The defense also crapped itself, but a sub 4 will tend to cost you the game by itself unless you get an elite defensive showing.  

 

One thing I will say about the Bengals and Burrow, is the defense did more for his playoff success than him and the offense. He has had similar poor offensive outputs in the playoffs, like Buffalo and Allen have had, but his defense picked him up. Ours did the complete opposite. We have only had two above average defensive performances in the playoffs since 2019. Ravens/Covid home game and Miami last year (which gets hidden by a lot of points, but they were dominant non the less). I believe I wrote on this in the past, likely will again. As far as discussing why we are or why we are not, is Allen better than Burrow or not, etc. The difference in defensive performance, especially when it matters, is nearly everything.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[90sBills]

43 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

 

Mahomes is good, but to suggest that all of the other elements that helped the Chiefs win SBs were irrelevant after him is ludicrous.  And frankly, if he would have been just as good here, then why haven't we even made a SB with Allen?  

 

 

 

 

With a little objectivity the answer would be simple. Covered with fan biases the answer becomes convoluted with what if scenarios.

 

Go back to the Divisional round, in KC’s first SB run, against Houston. Receivers dropped passes, defense and special teams blunders put them in a 24-0 hole in the 1st quarter. Yet by halftime KC was leading. With any objectivity you can see Mahomes is special. Rises to the occasion when things look bleak for his team time and time. He is better than our qb. It’s ok to admit that. It doesn’t mean Allen isn’t great in his own way. The Bills can win a championship with Allen. 

[Chicken Boo]

I always roll my eyes when this fan base has to reassure themselves about how good Josh is. 

 

Keep hanging on those statistics.

[Mango]

Love Josh. Him and Burrow are such different players and cut from totally different molds. Difficult to really compare or put one clearly above the other. 

But one thing I won't do is use 1 road game from 2 years ago and say "SeEeEeE lOoK hOw MuCh BeTteR mY gUy Is". 

 

Also, it is super disingenuous to take stats that include Burrow's rookie year where he tore his ACL and his first full season/coming off of a season ending ACL injury, and compare them to Allen's 3rd and more season years. Burrow has 2 full seasons under his belt. 2020 was Allen's 3rd year in the league. 

I would not trade Burrow straight up for Allen today. But this is silly.

 

 

Edited May 8, 2023 by Mango

[LABILLBACKER]

On 5/5/2023 at 7:01 PM, Big Turk said:

 

Amazing and also helped by the best OC in the NFL.

Really the only difference between Patrick and Josh is Andy Reid.  Josh has 2 rings if Reid is structuring his offense.  

[PBF81]

16 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

One thing I will say about the Bengals and Burrow, is the defense did more for his playoff success than him and the offense. He has had similar poor offensive outputs in the playoffs, like Buffalo and Allen have had, but his defense picked him up. Ours did the complete opposite. We have only had two above average defensive performances in the playoffs since 2019. Ravens/Covid home game and Miami last year (which gets hidden by a lot of points, but they were dominant non the less). I believe I wrote on this in the past, likely will again. As far as discussing why we are or why we are not, is Allen better than Burrow or not, etc. The difference in defensive performance, especially when it matters, is nearly everything.

 

Thank you!!  

 

To add to what you wrote, Burrow's third season playoff performances are not as good as Allen's third season playoff performances.  So at a developmental level he wasn't where Allen was, insofar as playoff performance goes at least, at that time.  

 

 

32 minutes ago, 90sBills said:

With a little objectivity the answer would be simple. Covered with fan biases the answer becomes convoluted with what if scenarios.

 

Go back to the Divisional round, in KC’s first SB run, against Houston. Receivers dropped passes, defense and special teams blunders put them in a 24-0 hole in the 1st quarter. Yet by halftime KC was leading. With any objectivity you can see Mahomes is special. Rises to the occasion when things look bleak for his team time and time. He is better than our qb. It’s ok to admit that. It doesn’t mean Allen isn’t great in his own way. The Bills can win a championship with Allen. 

 

You do realize that your analysis is all but entirely subjective, right?  

 

Just pointing that out.  

 

 

[Process]

Until Burrow shows he can play above average in a playoff game I can't consider him "elite". Never more than 2 TDs, never more than 27 points. Could care less about one Cinderella run to the Superbowl.

 

He's a very good QB that has shown he can put up elite regular season stats with a stacked offense around him. 

 

Josh and Patrick are on another level. Guys that can elevate their team and carry them on their backs. Now that Brady and Rodgers have fell off, they are the only "elite" QBs in the league right now with guys like Burrow, Herbert, Lawrence, Hurts in that next tier of "Good with the potential to be elite."

 

Again I think he's very good and probably the third best QB in the league. I just think the gap between Josh and whoever who thinks is #3 is very large. 

 

There is a lot of bias in favor of Burrow because he went to LSU, smoked cigars and wears fancy clothing. Whereas Josh is the complete opposite. It's annoying but it is what it is. 

[PBF81]

27 minutes ago, Mango said:

Love Josh. Him and Burrow are such different players and cut from totally different molds. Difficult to really compare or put one clearly above the other. 

 

Agree with your post.  I would also add that Mahomes, Herbert, and Lawrence all have their differences as well.  I also have no idea why Hurts has been mentioned in this conversation, he's done absolutely nothing from a passing perspective that puts him in the same class as the aforementioned.  He's a running QB, without that he's an incredibly average passer.  Lawrence, after escaping Meyer's hell and coming on strong last season looks positioned to join them.  

 

IMO it's great that they're all in the AFC.  

 

Our job, if we want to be better, then be better.  Draft better, coach better, utilize our players better, make better on-field decisions, make better halftime adjustments, etc.  If we can do that, great, if not, oh well.  

 

 

Edited May 8, 2023 by PBF81

[PBF81]

8 minutes ago, Process said:

Until Burrow shows he can play above average in a playoff game I can't consider him "elite". Never more than 2 TDs, never more than 27 points. Could care less about one Cinderella run to the Superbowl.

 

He's a very good QB that has shown he can put up elite regular season stats with a stacked offense around him. 

 

Josh and Patrick are on another level. Guys that can elevate their team and carry them on their backs. Now that Brady and Rodgers have fell off, they are the only "elite" QBs in the league right now with guys like Burrow, Herbert, Lawrence, Hurts in that next tier of "Good with the potential to be elite."

 

Again I think he's very good and probably the third best QB in the league. I just think the gap between Josh and whoever who thinks is #3 is very large. 

 

There is a lot of bias in favor of Burrow because he went to LSU, smoked cigars and wears fancy clothing. Whereas Josh is the complete opposite. It's annoying but it is what it is. 

 

Makes sense!  Lawrence coming on too though.  

 

As to this ... 

 

Quote

He's a very good QB that has shown he can put up elite regular season stats with a stacked offense around him. 

 

Largely unrelated, my very first thought upon reading that was that the same exact thing could be said about our "top-ranked" defenses.  

 

 

 

[90sBills]

50 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

Thank you!!  

 

To add to what you wrote, Burrow's third season playoff performances are not as good as Allen's third season playoff performances.  So at a developmental level he wasn't where Allen was, insofar as playoff performance goes at least, at that time.  

 

 

 

You do realize that your analysis is all but entirely subjective, right?  

 

Just pointing that out.  

 

 

Which part? The part where I said Mahomes is better? I mean the metrics for qbs are championships, stats, win/loss records. One guy has more than the other but it’s somehow subjective to say that guy is better?

 

If what you mean by subjective is whether Mahomes would be good with the Bills then you can make that same argument for anybody in the history of the NFL. Systems are great. Coaches are great. But players are above all because they execute on the field to win. A great player is going to be great no matter where he goes.

[The Jokeman]

6 hours ago, PatsFanNH said:

You sound like a Colts fan with P Manning. The fact is if all you need is a FG you get a FG. Also a simple fact Burrow has had more success in 2 full seasons than Allen has in his entire career. That wether fair or not will get him ranked above Allen by most. 
 

Also Burrows has beaten both Mahomes and Allen in the playoffs.  Why is Mahome stabled higher? Because he has one SB. 

He actually has two won and one lost. Toss in making the Conference championship for 5 years in a row if I'm not mistaken. Mahomes is great no doubt but he is beatable but it takes a great offense to do it and also a defense that can take advantage of his mistakes which for some odd reason rarely occurs. 

[Mikie2times]

 

 

This is looking at expected points, playoff averages vs regular season averages and total variation.  Negative = negative variation regardless if it's offense or defense. 

 

As you can see, Buffalo takes a pretty deep hit basically everywhere. The only place we didn't was on offense in 2021, but the defensive performance in 2021 was actually worse than our offensive one 🤢

 

KC is just consistent on offense. Incredibly so. On defense they fall in a similar way as Buffalo. Then for the Bengals, Burrow has avoided a major offensive regression and his defense seems to be the most consistent. Clearly it is very hard to maintain the quality of play you have in the regular season come playoff time. Buffalo appears worse in both regards at doing that. KC appears best at maintaining it on offense. The Bengals seem to be the most balanced as a whole. 

 

Edited May 8, 2023 by Mikie2times

[C.Biscuit97]

3 hours ago, PBF81 said:

 

JuJu, Kelce, ... meh.  

 

Easy there Festus.  I didn't say he would suck, I said he wouldn't be as good and I meant it marginally.  He'd still be great, I doubt he'd have won a SB here.  He'd be carrying McD & Beane the same as Allen now is.  Coaching, OL, and while you tout our "top-ranked defense," it played like a bottom-ranked defense in the playoffs generally speaking.  I've laid that out statistically several times here, although understood if you haven't seen it.  Then of course coaching, unless you're comparing Reid to McD that is.  

 

Look, I'm not one of these people in a dick-measuring competition with the other NFL teams over who has the best QB.  As I see it they're all different and do things that the others don't do.  IMO the differences between them is one of the more intriguing aspects of the game, much as Marino and Kelly were different, or Marino and Young for example.  If all QBs were identical in terms of style of play, how boring would that be. 

 

And frankly, one can win a SB without a top-ranked QB if the other areas of the team are solid.  Kelly was by no means the best QB in the league back in his day, although he was in the top bunch.  But our [truly] great D with Bruce, whom we have nothing even remotely resembling right now, and others, our OL then blows our OL today away whereas so does KC's OL today blow ours away, and very good but hardly superlative WRs and TEs, and yet we went to the SB despite not winning one, which again, IMO was due to coaching.  Put Parcells, Gibbs, or Johnson on the Bills back then, and Levy on their teams, and we'd be 2-2 or even 3-1 in SBs and we wouldn't all have Championship envy.  

 

Mahomes is good, but to suggest that all of the other elements that helped the Chiefs win SBs were irrelevant after him is ludicrous.  And frankly, if he would have been just as good here, then why haven't we even made a SB with Allen?  At the same time, put Allen on KC over the same period and IMO he's got his ring already.  Allen's hardly significantly worse, in fact, consider all of the games we've won specifically due to his rushing, and often when our own RBs were worthless.  Could Mahomes do that?  I doubt it.  But more importantly, why is it necessary on our team, for our QB to run that much that is ... part of my point.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

If Josh Allen was coming off his best season of his nfl career, after trading Diggs and replacing him with a receiver who averages less than 800 yards: season, just won his 2nd mvp and 2nd SB, we would think anyone who tried to discount in any way would have to be the biggest moron on the planet. 

[PBF81]

2 hours ago, 90sBills said:

Which part? The part where I said Mahomes is better? I mean the metrics for qbs are championships, stats, win/loss records. One guy has more than the other but it’s somehow subjective to say that guy is better?

 

If what you mean by subjective is whether Mahomes would be good with the Bills then you can make that same argument for anybody in the history of the NFL. Systems are great. Coaches are great. But players are above all because they execute on the field to win. A great player is going to be great no matter where he goes

 

Read your statement again.  

 

On order for an argument, debate, thesis, or anything, to be objective, what is a minimal requirement?  

 

 

2 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

If Josh Allen was coming off his best season of his nfl career, after trading Diggs and replacing him with a receiver who averages less than 800 yards: season, just won his 2nd mvp and 2nd SB, we would think anyone who tried to discount in any way would have to be the biggest moron on the planet. 

 

We'll, since you've chosen that approach, id equally suggest that anyone not understanding the value of continuity and chemistry between QBs and OLs would equally "have to be the biggest moron on the planet." 

 

That's without even touching on the coaching concept.  

 

🙂

 

 

[90sBills]

37 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

Read your statement again.  

 

On order for an argument, debate, thesis, or anything, to be objective, what is a minimal requirement?  

 

 

 

We'll, since you've chosen that approach, id equally suggest that anyone not understanding the value of continuity and chemistry between QBs and OLs would equally "have to be the biggest moron on the planet." 

 

That's without even touching on the coaching concept.  

 

🙂

 

 

I’m not sure where you’re going with this but it’s not important. I’ve said Mahomes is the better qb (the best currently) and also Allen can win a sb with the Bills. The first part is not subjective and the second part is because I’m a fan after all.

[PBF81]

46 minutes ago, 90sBills said:

I’m not sure where you’re going with this but it’s not important. I’ve said Mahomes is the better qb (the best currently) and also Allen can win a sb with the Bills. The first part is not subjective and the second part is because I’m a fan after all.

 

[Chuckle]  

 

Go Bills!!!    

 

 

[CincyBillsFan]

6 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

If Josh Allen was coming off his best season of his nfl career, after trading Diggs and replacing him with a receiver who averages less than 800 yards: season, just won his 2nd mvp and 2nd SB, we would think anyone who tried to discount in any way would have to be the biggest moron on the planet. 

In this scenario you would be remiss not to mention how much the Chiefs improved their O line since the debacle against Tampa Bay.

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

12 hours ago, Gregg said:

 

Did Josh blow a 3-point lead with just 13 seconds left and the Chiefs starting at their own 25.

Was it Allen's fault that the Bengals kicked the crap out of the Bills by dominating the LOS on both sides of the ball.

 

Allen can better though. His "hero ball" ways are great when it works but sometimes it leads to bad turnovers. Josh needs to clean up that part of his game. Mahomes is the best QB in the game right now. Burrow is very talented, but I am not sure he is better than Allen. The Bengals just have a better team than the Bills. IMHO.

I don’t think Allen will ever clean up that part of his game. It’s in his DNA and I think that’s what makes him great. Sometimes you have to take the good w/ the bad. I could be wrong, but he’s going on his 6th year and I doubt it anything will change drastically. 

[Gregg]

11 hours ago, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

I don’t think Allen will ever clean up that part of his game. It’s in his DNA and I think that’s what makes him great. Sometimes you have to take the good w/ the bad. I could be wrong, but he’s going on his 6th year and I doubt it anything will change drastically. 

 

Hopefully with a better OL (Allen never really had a good OL here) that gives him better pass protection as well as a good running game with the RB's doing the running that will help him clean up his game. Josh even said it himself that he can't continue to take the hits if he wants to have a long career.