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The obsession w/ how Josh Allen runs


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3 hours ago, Simon said:

He took a lot of hits in the first half of that game last night; the fact that he took fewer in the 2nd half was mostly a function of the Bills breaking out the ground game but was stark enough that he may have had a firm talking to at halftime.

 

LOL Allen in the post-game TNF interview. 

Tony Gonzales asks him about getting down "has there been any talk about maybe preserving that, and saying OK we need you in the long run?" 

Josh says "Oh, there's been a lot of talk about that"

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4 hours ago, HardyBoy said:

 

No, he is trying to force things to happen instead of being chill and letting them happen naturally.

 

Take the check down instead of trying for the deep play when it's not there. Pinning a team inside their 10 leads to you scoring next like 80%+ of the time. Let the other people on your team help you.

 

They have good and dangerous players if given the ball in space, let them do stuff.

 

I don't buy the lack of YAC is because of accuracy. I think it's cause he's not taking easy throws and instead is fitting balls into windows that are tiny and defenders are swarming right away. It's amazing and he shouldn't stop doing that, but a 5 yard check down with 15 yards YAC is way less risk and the same outcome as a 20 yard laser between 3 defenders with no YAC.

 

Situational awareness and playing as a point guard to ensure all players are engaged. Then in the fourth quarter, if needed go wild. Look at how Chris Paul plays point guard in the NBA.

 

Outstanding post.

 

There were some accuracy issues, but those have mostly resolved (assuming we have the elbow back).  But when a throw is made matters as much as where.  It's not just Allen skipping the "gimmees" to heave it deep, it's Allen taking the "gimmees" but only AFTER he's really had a good ol' look to see if he really can't find a deep shot.  By that time two defenders are closing, and not only are possible YAC minimized, but the ball becomes a much harder throw and catch and sometimes becomes a catch where the receiver will have to take a lot of punishment.

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42 minutes ago, Success said:

 

I get what you're saying - but Manning certainly wasn't a running QB.  His injuries were just part of the game, and that any QB could potentially face. It's a physical game no matter how hard you try to avoid hits.

 

Newton took a lot of punishment, and as I recall, a large part of that was refs not really giving him calls that many other QB's would get.  I think a few years back, it was more assumed that a running QB didn't deserve as many calls.  I think that's changed.

 

Pennington is a good example - but it felt like he was hurt all the time.

 

 

The best example there is, I don't think it's close is Andrew Luck.

 

Philip Rivers is maybe a really good alternate example in terms of taking tons of hits, getting hurt, but never really getting injured. 

 

With Luck a ton of it was the isolation of rehabbing injuries.

 

You're right Newton took a lot of cheap shots.

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It’s not lost on me that Josh’s two main injuries have occurred while he was IN the pocket, not scrambling around.  

So maybe it’s better if he runs out of trouble and gets clear of the pocket.  Yeah, just slide or go out of bounds once in a while.

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3 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Outstanding post.

 

There were some accuracy issues, but those have mostly resolved (assuming we have the elbow back).  But when a throw is made matters as much as where.  It's not just Allen skipping the "gimmees" to heave it deep, it's Allen taking the "gimmees" but only AFTER he's really had a good ol' look to see if he really can't find a deep shot.  By that time two defenders are closing, and not only are possible YAC minimized, but the ball becomes a much harder throw and catch and sometimes becomes a catch where the receiver will have to take a lot of punishment.

 

Thanks

 

To me it sounded like they sent him to a sports psychologist when he said on the post game show that the goal is to always make sure the possession ends with a kick.

 

On the surface it sounds like coach speak football cliche, but really it's a goal setting thing and reframing that seems really advanced. It's not don't throw interceptions and if you do you failed...it's even if you punt you've succeeded. That reframing feels different coming from Allen, after he hasn't been talking like that really ever (he has a lot of negative self talk).

 

What makes Allen so special is his ability to manipulate defenses. I don't think it's pass up the long ball, but on Dorsey to set up plays where the long ball threat sets up the short stuff. Again, it's refraiming. He loves tricking people and winning by messing with people's heads.

 

Mix in plays where they let Allen trick defenses by making them think he's going deep, and then hit the checkdown. Move the safeties and the linebackers deep and then hit Cook, Hines or Singletary and let them break off a 20 yard YAC. If the defense blows the coverage, heck ya chuck it, but they need to give him plays where he can use his brain to trick people and get chunks of yards without having to hold it for five seconds.

 

I wouldn't be shocked if they had Allen and Dorsey sit with a sports psychologist and figure out what Allen needed from a play calling perspective to get 90% of what was looking for when going hero ball from a behavioral perspective, while decreasing the risk of negative plays, but most importantly the hits he was exposing himself to.

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Josh is actually a smart runner and doesn’t take all that much damage when he’s out of the pocket overall.  I worry more about those blind-side sacks in the pocket etc.  Josh is actually not a knucklehead when he runs, even when he initiates contact.  He’s got a good sense of where defenders are coming from and it’s what makes him a weapon.  
 

I think yesterday we did a nice job of running the ball with our backfield much more, which to me is more of a key to keeping Josh Allen healthy.  Need to run the ball to keep heat off josh and really sell Play action stuff.  
 

Other than that, let him run if he has to.  He’s already passed Michael Vick’s rushing yardage at 5 years I believe which is an accomplishment.  His ability in this area is what makes him unique.

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13 minutes ago, HardyBoy said:

To me it sounded like they sent him to a sports psychologist when he said on the post game show that the goal is to always make sure the possession ends with a kick.

 

On the surface it sounds like coach speak football cliche, but really it's a goal setting thing and reframing that seems really advanced. It's not don't throw interceptions and if you do you failed...it's even if you punt you've succeeded. That reframing feels different coming from Allen, after he hasn't been talking like that really ever (he has a lot of negative self talk).

 

The Bills do have a sports psychologist on staff, and I'm sure they've had him or her work with Allen from time to time.

 

But the "Need to be sure every possession ends with a kick" mantra dates from 2019, or at least that's when I heard Allen saying it first.

 

Edited by Beck Water
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5 hours ago, PatsFanNH said:

A coping? Or perhaps we see how other QBs who run like Allen have fared. The fact is their careers were shortened because of injury and they couldn’t adapt their game to be a pocket passer. Could Allen buck the trend? Maybe but it’s not coping point out his style has not fared well in the NFL. 


Allen already is a pocket passer. Their is no adaptation needed. The running ability is just a bonus. 
 

Also, there is no comp for Allen. Newton, Big Ben, Favre , Elway, Young, Mahomes  he has a bit of all of their abilities making him truly unique.

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Just now, Aurelius said:

Josh is actually a smart runner and doesn’t take all that much damage when he’s out of the pocket overall.  I worry more about those blind-side sacks in the pocket etc.  Josh is actually not a knucklehead when he runs, even when he initiates contact.  He’s got a good sense of where defenders are coming from and it’s what makes him a weapon.  
 

I think yesterday we did a nice job of running the ball with our backfield much more, which to me is more of a key to keeping Josh Allen healthy.  Need to run the ball to keep heat off josh and really sell Play action stuff.  
 

Other than that, let him run if he has to.  He’s already passed Michael Vick’s rushing yardage at 5 years I believe which is an accomplishment.  His ability in this area is what makes him unique.

 

On that run against the Lions (not the last one setting up the field goal attempt at the end, but the long run earlier in the game) the hit he took was completely unnecessary. I don't care how skilled you are doing something dangerous, you might be the best free rock climber in the world, but there is still a risk every time you climb.

 

He broke off like a 30 yard run, had three defenders in boxing him in, it was over. Slide or dive forward a tiny bit and end the play. Instead he cut back, tried to take on 3 defenders and got hit really hard.

 

Just totally unnecessary. That play was over, he crushed that rep, but it was over.

 

Kind of like when you're out with friends (thinking back sentimentality to my 20s and early 30s) and you had a great night, but instead of going home, you decide to go to one more bar trying to keep the magic going while making plans to workout in the morning.

 

Fast forward to you waking up super hung over at like 11am and feeling super guilty even though there's nothing to feel guilty about... the night was over, just go home.

 

Or this hyper specific but definitely hypothetical situation where you go to one more place before going home and really want to play guitar. But you live in a pretty small house in South Florida at the time and you know she has to work in the morning and would wake her up. So being the super kind person you are you decide to go outside on your backyard deck and play some quiet acoustic guitar while recording yourself playing with your handy field recorder.

 

Suddenly you wake up not knowing where you are to your dog barking and you're wife telling your dog to chill out while she opens the slider to let the dog out in the morning. Suddenly you hear a little genuine scream, followed by laughter when she realizes that the seemingly homeless person who squatted on your deck the night before is actually your idiot husband who passed out with a guitar in his hands.

 

And you have it all recorded because your recorder was recording for the last five hours...hypothetically.

 

Moral of the story? Do what Costanza did and go out on a high note. Don't care how good he is at running and taking/giving out hits...literally zero valid reasons for a qb that has superbowl mvp aspirations to take that hit after a 30 yard game changing run to try and get an extra five yards at the 50 yard line. Slide!

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Here’s my understanding of injuries that happen because of contact… you have to have contact. The more hits you take whether in the pocket, scrambling, or getting coffee will increase your risk for getting hurt. Josh is an amazing player, a totally unique player in my 50+ years of watching football, but he will get hurt (and already has been hurt) if he doesn’t make smarter decisions when avoiding contact is an option. Sometimes you can’t and that’s the game. But when you can, get down. You see receivers do it regularly. The coaching staff is complicit too. I hate the designed runs with him carrying the ball. Be smart=play longer. When he dives over three guys to score in the Super Bowl, I’ll be all for it. Until then avoid hits. 

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The best way to protect him is to invest heavily in the offense through draft picks and free agency.  He took the least amount of hits in 2020 and ran the least.  We had excellent pass protection and our best outside weapons with Diggs/Beasley/Brown at the top of their game.  

Edited by Doc Brown
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I think Allen has a natural instinct for avoiding big hits while running. Injuries tend to happen when you take a hit from an awkward position, like the elbow injury he suffered while winding up to throw the ball. Running into contact and positioning his body right to absorb the contact is not a dangerous play. It might look like a big hit but Allen is big and strong and he's initiating the contact. I'm not worried about it at all.

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10 hours ago, PatsFanNH said:

A coping? Or perhaps we see how other QBs who run like Allen have fared. The fact is their careers were shortened because of injury and they couldn’t adapt their game to be a pocket passer. Could Allen buck the trend? Maybe but it’s not coping point out his style has not fared well in the NFL. 

Who are you talking about?
Elway? Young? Rodgers? Favre? Tarkenton? Flutie?  

What scrambling QBs had a career shortened by their penchant for taking off when the opportunity arose? 
Newton? He’s the basis of your argument? He played 11 seasons. Not exactly a short stay. He’s not playing because he’s physically unable. It’s because he’s a lousy passer and a washed up diva. 

So, who are the scrambling QBs whose careers were shortened by their style of play? 

 

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13 hours ago, PatsFanNH said:

A coping? Or perhaps we see how other QBs who run like Allen have fared. The fact is their careers were shortened because of injury and they couldn’t adapt their game to be a pocket passer. Could Allen buck the trend? Maybe but it’s not coping point out his style has not fared well in the NFL. 

This is the same thought process I had when Brady reached his mid 30’s and thought “he is getting old, soon his career will end.”. We get you want Josh to leave Buffalo sooner than later, I would to if I was a Pats fan. 

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13 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

The Bills do have a sports psychologist on staff, and I'm sure they've had him or her work with Allen from time to time.

 

But the "Need to be sure every possession ends with a kick" mantra dates from 2019, or at least that's when I heard Allen saying it first.

 

 

Oh wow, hadn't realized that thanks!

 

 

12 hours ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:


Allen already is a pocket passer. Their is no adaptation needed. The running ability is just a bonus. 
 

Also, there is no comp for Allen. Newton, Big Ben, Favre , Elway, Young, Mahomes  he has a bit of all of their abilities making him truly unique.

 

Andrew Luck

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1 minute ago, HardyBoy said:

Andrew Luck

 

Luck never made the secondary reaction plays that Allen and Mahomes make regularly. And while an athlete he is still a good tier below the top athletes at the position like Allen. But he is a pretty good comp. Big physical pocket QB with a good arm.  I'd argue Luck was beat up in the pocket and that is why he gave up on football not because he ran too much and his arm talent decreased. He still had an arm when he retired young. His heart just wasn't in the game. Allen seems to be cut from a different mold mentally. 

 

I stand by the statement that Allen won't have a career altering injury to his arm from running the football. I don't by the Allen and Newton injury comps. If Allen has a career altering injury to his arm it will be from hits behind the line of scrimmage when he is a passer. He's already had three arm injuries in such situations.

 

In today's game I would also be more worried about concussions.

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