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Week 2 of Camp - updates and talking points (OL??)


GunnerBill
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6 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

As for my Bills fandom it is a long story, and apologies to those who have heard it before, but my grandad was from the Poland / Czechoslovakia

 

Your heritage also fits well with a lot of us from Western New York!  The "Polonia" community on the East Side of Buffalo in the first half of the

20th century has a rich history.

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I think an interesting storyline to watch is the bottom of the secondary depth chart. By all accounts Benford has recently picked up his level of play, but McCloud has also reportedly had a very strong comp. Last year we kept 5 CBs and 4 safeties. White, Elam, Neal, Jackson, and Taron Johnson are all locks. On safety I imagine it will be the same as last year - Hyde, Poyer, Hamlin, and Jaquan Johnson. Where does that leave room for Benford or McCloud, let alone both?

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19 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

I think an interesting storyline to watch is the bottom of the secondary depth chart. By all accounts Benford has recently picked up his level of play, but McCloud has also reportedly had a very strong comp. Last year we kept 5 CBs and 4 safeties. White, Elam, Neal, Jackson, and Taron Johnson are all locks. On safety I imagine it will be the same as last year - Hyde, Poyer, Hamlin, and Jaquan Johnson. Where does that leave room for Benford or McCloud, let alone both?

 

 

As I said when the Bills drafted Elam.......CB was not nearly the immediate concern/need that some fans thought.   

 

And the Bills play a system where they can adjust the amount of exposure that their CB's have as well.

 

Offensively they have no concerns whatsoever about not having enough seats for all the underwhelming OL and WR candidates.

 

But they could easily just go with 5 WR's and keep an extra DB.   The 6th and 7th WR options will be practice squad quality anyway.

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31 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

I think an interesting storyline to watch is the bottom of the secondary depth chart. By all accounts Benford has recently picked up his level of play, but McCloud has also reportedly had a very strong comp. Last year we kept 5 CBs and 4 safeties. White, Elam, Neal, Jackson, and Taron Johnson are all locks. On safety I imagine it will be the same as last year - Hyde, Poyer, Hamlin, and Jaquan Johnson. Where does that leave room for Benford or McCloud, let alone both?

Don’t forget Cam Lewis 

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Pat Kirwin said on OBL today that he's impressed with what Beane has done to replace lost players this year - and is especially impressed with what he has done with OL.  Said you could sit every starter and still have an OL with starting experience at every position.  Said basically there is no other team like that.  Said they just came from NE and after the starting five OL there, there was (his emphasis) "nothing"

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15 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

And the Bills play a system where they can adjust the amount of exposure that their CB's have as well

 

They can, but only by sacrificing other areas of the defense as we saw after White went down. And that leads to a one dimensional defense which is vulnerable to elite offenses. McDermott has proven he can take pretty much any off-the-street cerebral CB and make him a competent player in this scheme. They drafted Elam because they're aspiring for more than just competence.

 

More to the point, I think Benford/McCloud looking good in camp underlines why we let another team pay Levi Wallace. We can replicate Wallace's level of play with 6th rounders-UDFAs until the end of time as long as McDermott is here. For that reason I don't think Dane Jackson will be on the team in 2023. This year we essentially have too much depth in the secondary. Maybe they'll flip McCloud for a late round pick and let Taiwan Jones go to make room for Benford.

 

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15 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

They can, but only by sacrificing other areas of the defense as we saw after White went down. And that leads to a one dimensional defense which is vulnerable to elite offenses. McDermott has proven he can take pretty much any off-the-street cerebral CB and make him a competent player in this scheme. They drafted Elam because they're aspiring for more than just competence.

 

More to the point, I think Benford/McCloud looking good in camp underlines why we let another team pay Levi Wallace. We can replicate Wallace's level of play with 6th rounders-UDFAs until the end of time as long as McDermott is here. For that reason I don't think Dane Jackson will be on the team in 2023. This year we essentially have too much depth in the secondary. Maybe they'll flip McCloud for a late round pick and let Taiwan Jones go to make room for Benford.

 

 

 

No.........they are at their core a zone pass defense.

 

The zone aspect isn't a sacrifice.........it's their identity.

 

The defense fell apart with 2 minutes left in the divisional game..........exhausted by Mahomes pulling the ball down when receivers were covered and keeping drives alive with his feet due to a pass rush that could not finish.

 

Not due to 60 minutes of poor coverage.

 

Prior to that exhausted finish for the entire Bills back 7..........they had played better in the secondary than they had in the AFCCG the year before WITH Tre White.

 

Benford/McCloud looking good in camp "underlines" what I've said all along............the Bills have never had any trouble finding good CB play under McDermott.    They could find a guy in UDFA who runs a 4.6 and if he's smart and instinctive he could beat a guy like Elam out if he doesn't demonstrate those particular abilities consistently.   Regardless of his track metrics.

   

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Just now, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

No.........they are at their core a zone pass defense.

 

The zone aspect isn't a sacrifice.........it's their identity.

 

 

Total agreement. However, being able to confidently/competently mix in man and press coverage calls on either side of the formation IS an option they've admittedly sought to add to their repertoire.  

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16 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

No.........they are at their core a zone pass defense.

 

The zone aspect isn't a sacrifice.........it's their identity.

 

See the problem with your argument... is that I watched the Bills play last year. I watched the secondary alignments change because our island CB was no longer available and I watched that impact our ability to scheme against elite pass catchers. McDermott and Beane have admitted as much throughout the offseason. I'm not just talking about the AFCCG where I agree the pass rush was the biggest issue. I'm talking about an overall philosophical shift in the secondary when the likes of Levi Wallace and Dane Jackson are our only options. They took Elam to make sure they never lose that versatility again.

 

But can I be honest? I am so over this whole discussion. I think I've posted almost exactly the above paragraph word for word several times this offseason. I'm done arguing over whether losing one of the three elite players on our team impacted our ability to win games, or whether limited players create limited schemes. I'm more interested in discussing what our secondary depth chart will look like this year and how the secondary as currently constructed will look on this defense in this season.

 

Edited by HappyDays
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1 hour ago, HappyDays said:

I think an interesting storyline to watch is the bottom of the secondary depth chart. By all accounts Benford has recently picked up his level of play, but McCloud has also reportedly had a very strong comp. Last year we kept 5 CBs and 4 safeties. White, Elam, Neal, Jackson, and Taron Johnson are all locks. On safety I imagine it will be the same as last year - Hyde, Poyer, Hamlin, and Jaquan Johnson. Where does that leave room for Benford or McCloud, let alone both?

I think we need to keep McCloud on the active roster to protect him from being poached. He looked very good in preseason last year and there's a lot of uncertainty with Tre's injury and the fact that Elam's a rookie.

 

Benford will likely be put on the practice squad and designated as protected.

 

I think Neal could be cut if Terrel Bernard proves to be good enough in coverage to serve as the "big nickel" in certain packages. Neal only played 14% of the snaps on defense and is mainly a special teamer with 66% of the snaps.

 

Injuries to Poyer and Hyde (and how well Jaquon Johnson fills in) as well as the recovery timeline of Tre will greatly effect who we keep.

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11 minutes ago, Allen2Diggs said:

I think we need to keep McCloud on the active roster to protect him from being poached. He looked very good in preseason last year and there's a lot of uncertainty with Tre's injury and the fact that Elam's a rookie.

 

Yeah he was already poached by the Bengals last year, we were lucky to get him back. I just have trouble finding a spot for him. It feels like it's between him and Benford for the last spot as a depth CB who can play safety in a pinch, and my hunch is they'll stick with their draft pick from this year if it's a tie.

 

Quote

Benford will likely be put on the practice squad and designated as protected.

 

They may be able to get away with stowing Benford on the PS - they managed to do it with Dane Jackson in his rookie season. But I wonder if Beane is wary after losing players like McCloud and Wildgoose and Jack Anderson in the past couple years. It would be hard to stash a 6th round pick that has been making positive headlines in training camp and has been specifically mentioned in pressers by the DC. I'm sure other teams pay attention to that stuff.

 

Edited by HappyDays
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1 minute ago, Richard Noggin said:

Total agreement. However, being able to confidently/competently mix in man and press coverage calls on either side of the formation IS an option they've admittedly sought to add to their repertoire.  

 

I would equate this to having a bigger playbook on offense...........sounds good in principle...........more possibilities equals harder to defend.

 

On paper.

 

But it often proves much different in practice.

 

The most important aspect of each play is proper execution..........being able to play some man at a lesser quality than you can play zone is not a win just because you are mixing it up............because they are elite in zone.

 

The proper response was to improve the pass rush.........they did that with Miller joining a cast of highly drafted 2nd-4th year players.

 

Whether it was necessary to spend to the volume of cash and chips on the other aspects of the defense is debatable..............run defense isn't a big priority in the game anymore and the Bills secondary is very deep with capable players for their scheme.

 

 

 

 

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17 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

See the problem with your argument... is that I watched the Bills play last year. I watched the secondary alignments change because our island CB was no longer available and I watched that impact our ability to scheme against elite pass catchers. McDermott and Beane have admitted as much throughout the offseason. I'm not just talking about the AFCCG where I agree the pass rush was the biggest issue. I'm talking about an overall philosophical shift in the secondary when the likes of Levi Wallace and Dane Jackson are our only options. They took Elam to make sure they never lose that versatility again.

 

But can I be honest? I am so over this whole discussion. I think I've posted almost exactly the above paragraph word for word several times this offseason. I'm done arguing over whether losing one of the three elite players on our team impacted our ability to win games, or whether limited players create limited schemes. I'm more interested in discussing what our secondary depth chart will look like this year and how the secondary as currently constructed will look on this defense in this season.

 

 

Now Tre White is an "island CB"?

 

Tre White is a stud zone CB.......a modern day Rhonde Barber type..........not an "island" man cover CB.:doh:

 

And if the best man coverage CB Jalen Ramsey can't strand Mike Evans or the Bengals receivers on an island in the playoffs then I wouldn't hold my breath expecting Tre White to.

 

 

The Bills play zone defense because that is their style...........not just because they are limited by the physical skills of their CB's.   

 

 

 

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23 hours ago, NickelCity said:

OLine is the weakness by a mile. I don't dislike the top 5 (I'm higher on brown than some), but I don't know if I trust a single depth player. It's the only thing that's "controllable" (to a degree) that worries me about this team. 

 

I trust Quessenberry a lot more than I did any backups last year. Dude was a starter and VERY good run blocker last year. Yeah he gave up sacks but tannehill is terrible at eluding pressures (saw a site where he had more sacks than pressures, not sure how that happens). So I feel better with Quessenberry at any position other than C than I did with last years backups. Don’t think its particularly close between this year and last year either.  

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8 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

The Bills play zone defense because that is their style...........not just because they are limited by the physical skills of their CB's.   

 

Can't wait to see what the defensive scheme looks like this year :thumbsup:

 

8 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

Tre White is a stud zone CB.......a modern day Rhonde Barber type..........not an "island" man cover CB.

 

And yet... they play him on an island all the time.

 

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11 minutes ago, YattaOkasan said:

I trust Quessenberry a lot more than I did any backups last year. Dude was a starter and VERY good run blocker last year. Yeah he gave up sacks but tannehill is terrible at eluding pressures (saw a site where he had more sacks than pressures, not sure how that happens). So I feel better with Quessenberry at any position other than C than I did with last years backups. Don’t think its particularly close between this year and last year either.  

 

This is the most plausible critique to my argument that our OLine depth is barren. But even if we grant Qberry the benefit of the doubt, is there even another rostered player we can do that for? Does the next-best become a discussion of boettger's achilles?

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6 hours ago, HappyDays said:

I think an interesting storyline to watch is the bottom of the secondary depth chart. By all accounts Benford has recently picked up his level of play, but McCloud has also reportedly had a very strong comp. Last year we kept 5 CBs and 4 safeties. White, Elam, Neal, Jackson, and Taron Johnson are all locks. On safety I imagine it will be the same as last year - Hyde, Poyer, Hamlin, and Jaquan Johnson. Where does that leave room for Benford or McCloud, let alone both?

 

And Cam Lewis who had a great first week of camp? There might be 3 battling for 1 spot. 

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