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1 hour ago, NewEra said:

Word.  
 

Never take away his legs…,we nust

CAN’T use him the way we did vs Atlanta and the jets all season.  If we do, we’ll

likely take years off of his career

I don't think anyone here is advocating the Bills use Allen like the Bills did in those two games. Those games were an anomaly. The debate is really about how to utilize Allen's legs to win games and not subjecting  Allen to hits and or injury. 

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8 hours ago, YattaOkasan said:

You better tell the league that they are underestimating Williams.  I was here for 2020.  he lost his spot to a rookie the next year.  clearly there are limitations in his game (they are athletic, his RAS is bad).  im not aware of him ever having a good season at guard.  Ultimately i think Williams' lack of athleticism is why teams have soured on him as a Tackle and he has never shown to be a good guard.  Seems a pretty straight forward why he doesnt have a deal yet.

 

The injury concern is really your best argument in this saffold/williams discussion, which is why im still laughing at your terrible take earlier, but at this point the bills have shown they are able to manage injuries very well.  But saffold gets to play beside an "all pro" LT this coming season so really the comparison is to Bates.  Again saffold is a clear upgrade.  

 

At this point you need to hope someone signs williams for > 5 mil or ill just have fun tagging you with that.   

 

At RG Bates had a better ratio of snaps : penalty than Williams and did not have enough snaps to qualify for a ranking (he gave up 0 though).  Yeah that might not translate to the other side but at this point youre just projecting.  If it doesnt Van Roten is very similar G to Williams (Van Roten << Williams @ T).  

 

Quessenberry is fun.  I think sacks plus penalties is just as useful to evaluate OL play.  Brown had 8 penalties last year to Quessenberry's 2.  so Quessenberry has 13 penalties and sacks to browns 9 penalties and sacks.  Quessenberry also had like double the snaps and was a clearly better run blocker.  So yeah I think he played better last year, even though I think Browns anticipated growth makes him a better RT this year.  Also quessenberry has a great story.  dude played less than 500 snaps before last year, and he turned out to be an awesome run blocking tackle.  He has played multiple positions after winning his battle with cancer.  So just overall yeah i think his play this year can be expected to be better than Browns rookie season.

 

So where does that leave us.  you need Bates to play worse on the other side, Saffold to be injured, Brown not to take a step forward, Quessenberry to take a step back as a run blocker.  That would be same level of play as last years OL (we would run Dawkin, Bates, Morse, Van Roten, Quessenberry in this scenario).  So thats all variance on one side of the mean.  I could paint a picture where we become a top 5 line this year doing the opposite of what you did to get them back in the 16-20 range (I think they will be top 10).  I think an improvement from 16-20 to top 10 would be considered much better.  But you do you and keep telling GMs they are underestimating Williams as a tackle.

Great post.  
 

The only place where we disagree is them being a top 10 unit. I think they can be a top 10 unit…..but I think they’re closer to 12-18. We saw how devastating an OL injury can be and how our OL play suffered and crippled out offense.  Our run blocking was putrid and left us one dimensional.  I like the additions and feel much more comfortable with our depth.  If we face injuries, quessenberry and Van rotens play could decide our fate.  If their play in relief is = to Spencer Browns play @ RT….. we’re doomed if they have to play long term.  
 

injuries are inevitable along the OL.  The severity of our OL injuries will play a role in our success/failure based on our backups play

 

I think they can be a top 10 unit thanks to Kromer moreso than our talent.  

Edited by NewEra
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46 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

I don't think anyone here is advocating the Bills use Allen like the Bills did in those two games. Those games were an anomaly. The debate is really about how to utilize Allen's legs to win games and not subjecting  Allen to hits and or injury. 

 

 

An anomaly?   He had 42 rushing attempts in the 4 games from Tampa thru Atlanta.     And that's counting the Carolina game where they tried to have him just throw from the pocket the week after injuring his foot being tackled on a running play in Tampa.    He rushed only 3 times that day but behind his ineffective OL he struggled with 55% completion and was sacked 4 times.    After that, they went right back to using him like a RB with 27 carries over next two weeks.     He also had the 11 rush game early in the season in KC and 2 other games with 9.    Running Allen heavily was far from an anomaly.    He ran a young-Cam-Newton-esque 122 times on the year........with a per game rate like his rookie season when he was basically just running around trying to figure it out.     

 

By contrast..........Patrick Mahomes killed the Bills defense with his feet in the playoff game.........but he only ran the ball 62 times in the regular season.   

 

 

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2 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

The Bills guaranteed $90M to just 4 defensive free agents plus their first round pick this offseason.

 

This to benefit what had been the league's #1 ranked defense in 2021.

 

They guaranteed just $25M combined to 12 offensive-side free agents/draft picks.......9 of which you listed.  

 

A relative pittance. 

 

This after they cut 15 and 16 game starters Williams and Beasley and also their second most productive boundary receiver(Sanders). 

 

They lost as much or more production on offense as they had on defense.      

 

So yes.........as @ScottLaw said......."they sacriced investment on offense" to the benefit of the defense.

 

Obviously.

 

Taking offense to that with your snarky list of tired vets and injury fliers was laughably illogical..........but that's why your screen name is an antiaptronym.........the opposite of what you are and what you do.

 


Yawn.

 

You claimed that I said that they invested as much on offense as they did on defense. I didn’t. 
 

My disagreeing with the notion that they didn’t invest in the offense is not the same as my saying that they invested as much on offense as they did on defense. 


But sure, go ahead and change the phrasing of what you’re accusing me of having said so that you can keep your “never been wrong even once” streak going. Par for the course.
 

Your constant personal attacks against my character — not my posts, mind you, but me as a person — your constant tagging me in posts, and your generally dismissive, arrogant, know-it-all demeanor are so tiresome. If you want to talk like an adult about football, great. Otherwise, please kindly keep my name out of your mouth.

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7 hours ago, YattaOkasan said:

One starter from the end of the year.  Considering who took the majority of snaps we got improvement at 3 places. Bates better than Ike, mongo, ford (you agree with me on this) Brown improves (I think you would agree odds are that he does), Saffold. That’s better at three positions which equates to much better.  Did they get anyone to surpass Morse or Dawkins?  Nah but they did turnover the bottom part of that line.
 

Go be miserable about something else like why Bates got less snaps than Cody ford. 

Simply saying that your statement of “much better” is a gigantic stretch means I’m miserable? 😅

 

“Much better” is not out of the realm of possibility but it will take several “what ifs” to come to fruition for that to take place… I’ll take better considering the cluster ***** it was last season… personally I don’t think they did enough to address the offensive line and offense in general.

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13 minutes ago, Logic said:


Yawn.

 

You claimed that I said that they invested as much on offense as they did on defense. I didn’t. 
 

My disagreeing with the notion that they didn’t invest in the offense is not the same as my saying that they invested as much on offense as they did on defense. 


But sure, go ahead and change the phrasing of what you’re accusing me of having said so that you can keep your “never been wrong even once” streak going. Par for the course.
 

Your constant personal attacks against my character — not my posts, mind you, but me as a person — your constant tagging me in posts, and your generally dismissive, arrogant, know-it-all demeanor are so tiresome. If you want to talk like an adult about football, great. Otherwise, please kindly keep my name out of your mouth.

Yes, but you understood my point… you ran off a list of meh offensive signings/players resigned that are pale in comparison to the investment made defensively… but you knew that. 

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2 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

An anomaly?   He had 42 rushing attempts in the 4 games from Tampa thru Atlanta.     And that's counting the Carolina game where they tried to have him just throw from the pocket the week after injuring his foot being tackled on a running play in Tampa.    He rushed only 3 times that day but behind his ineffective OL he struggled with 55% completion and was sacked 4 times.    After that, they went right back to using him like a RB with 27 carries over next two weeks.     He also had the 11 rush game early in the season in KC and 2 other games with 9.    Running Allen heavily was far from an anomaly.    He ran a young-Cam-Newton-esque 122 times on the year........with a per game rate like his rookie season when he was basically just running around trying to figure it out.     

 

By contrast..........Patrick Mahomes killed the Bills defense with his feet in the playoff game.........but he only ran the ball 62 times in the regular season.   

 

 

Let me ask you this. How effective has Allen been as a runner since he became a Bill? Yards, big plays, and touchdowns. Surely, any Bills fan knows the answer. Please stop with your feeble argument. 

Edited by newcam2012
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38 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Yes, but you understood my point… you ran off a list of meh offensive signings/players resigned that are pale in comparison to the investment made defensively… but you knew that. 


I illustrated my disagreement with the notion that the team didn’t invest in the offense. I did not claim that the levels of investment in offense and defense were commensurate in terms of dollars and cents.


The way you dismiss the offensive signings/re-signings make it sound as if they didn’t address that side of the ball at all. I disagree. I think moves like re-signing the #1 WR (in an offseason that saw many teams unwilling to do so), spending a 2nd round pick on a running back, and upgrading at guard and TE2 represented at least some degree of reasonable investment on offense. Note, again, that I’m not claiming they spent the same on offense on defense, but simply that I disagree with this notion that they didn’t lift a finger to help the offense.

 

By the way, it’s not as if investing heavily on defense is something that only silly, old school Sean McDermott wants to do. We just saw the Chiefs part ways with Tyreek Hill to free up cap space to spread around the rest of the team, then use 7 of their 10 draft picks on defense. We just saw the Chargers spend big on Khalil Mack and JC Jackson. We saw the Raiders shell out big bucks for Chandler Jones.


It’s not just the Bills. Defense is important.
 

And before you say “but the Bills already fielded the number 1 defense last year”, well, they were also 2nd in the league offensively in pts/game two years running. They were also the best offense in the playoffs last season at 41.5 pts/game. You’ll point to the stretch of offensive ineffectiveness in the third quarter of the Chiefs game, but I’ll point again to the defense giving up 42 points. Round and round we go. There’s more than one way to skin a cat.

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1 hour ago, ScottLaw said:

Simply saying that your statement of “much better” is a gigantic stretch means I’m miserable? 😅

 

“Much better” is not out of the realm of possibility but it will take several “what ifs” to come to fruition for that to take place… I’ll take better considering the cluster ***** it was last season… personally I don’t think they did enough to address the offensive line and offense in general.

This is a very fair post. I agree with your take. 

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Seems as if there seems to be some amnesia as to why the Bills didn't advance into the AFC Championship game.

 

Aside from the coaching gaffe

 

- The Bills couldn't get after the QB

- The Bills couldn't cover their receivers

 

That was addressed this offseason in a major way.

 

With that said, the offensive line on paper is slightly better and so is the backfield, tight ends with the WR's essentially being a push.

 

Get one more veteran depth CB and boundary WR and the team is set.

 

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1 hour ago, Magox said:

Seems as if there seems to be some amnesia as to why the Bills didn't advance into the AFC Championship game.

 

Aside from the coaching gaffe

 

- The Bills couldn't get after the QB

- The Bills couldn't cover their receivers

 

That was addressed this offseason in a major way.

 

With that said, the offensive line on paper is slightly better and so is the backfield, tight ends with the WR's essentially being a push.

 

Get one more veteran depth CB and boundary WR and the team is set.

 

I don't want to really revisit the KC loss but I guess I will respond. I don't think any of us have amnesia. I'd argue many have PTSD. Perhaps it's just sarcasm. The Bills lost the game for many reasons besides the 2 you mentioned. Obviously, the loss of Tre was significant. The pass rush wasn't bad. In fact, they relentlessly pressured Mahomes. It was more of a great QB making unbelievable plays. His legs hurt the Bills as well with timely scrambles, runs, and extending plays. 

 

Fast forward to the upcoming season and the Bills roster. I think on paper the Bills remain very strong especially with a healthy upright Allen. I'd argue the WR core seems slightly weaker. Questions still remain on the offensive line. Special teams is a concern at punter and returner positions. How will Tre play? Lastly, and unpopular is the coaching staff. How will OC Dorsey's play calling impact the offense? Can coach McDermott learn from his horrific 13 second disaster? 

 

I expect a better and more consistent pass rush and a more formidable rush defense. Not a huge fan of Edmunds but I don't want to go there. Milano didn't seem to have the same kind of big play impact as previous years. I think the lb core is adequate and perhaps the weakest link of the Bills D. Seems like many overlook this. Maybe I'm wrong here? 

 

Lastly, the Bills schedule is much more difficult than previous years. Several teams have significantly improved their teams. Raiders, Denver, Chargers, Cinci, Indy, and Miami. I think the Bills are the best team in the AFC.  The Bills have huge targets on their backs as one of the favorites in the AFC. I suspect the Bills will get the best efforts of opposing teams. I can't wait for the season to start. 

Edited by newcam2012
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1 hour ago, Magox said:

Seems as if there seems to be some amnesia as to why the Bills didn't advance into the AFC Championship game.

 

Aside from the coaching gaffe

 

- The Bills couldn't get after the QB

- The Bills couldn't cover their receivers

 

That was addressed this offseason in a major way.

 

With that said, the offensive line on paper is slightly better and so is the backfield, tight ends with the WR's essentially being a push.

 

Get one more veteran depth CB and boundary WR and the team is set.

 

The Bills had Mahomes running for his life all game. He just kept making crazy plays and/or dumping it off and watching Hill and McKinnon and Hardman get a ton of YAC.

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4 minutes ago, gobills404 said:

The Bills had Mahomes running for his life all game. He just kept making crazy plays and/or dumping it off and watching Hill and McKinnon and Hardman get a ton of YAC.

 

You guys are mistaking that for good pressure.  Mahomes had plenty of time to throw, obviously after 3-4 seconds then the pressure was coming in.

 

It wasn't as if the Bills were getting immediate pressure, the reason why he was "running for his life" was because of the time he was afforded and he just stood back there looking for options and eventually the pressure was coming in.

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On 6/18/2022 at 9:52 AM, gobills404 said:

The Bills had Mahomes running for his life all game. He just kept making crazy plays and/or dumping it off and watching Hill and McKinnon and Hardman get a ton of YAC.

Those were mostly routine plays for Mahomes and pretty sustainable IMO. One guy flushing Mahomes out of the pocket doesn’t do much if Mahomes has room to run. He’ll either turn the corner, pick up an easy first, and go OB without taking a hit; or he’ll reset and hit the open man in the scrabble [EDIT:scramble] drill. He can do both of those all day.

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2 hours ago, Magox said:

 

You guys are mistaking that for good pressure.  Mahomes had plenty of time to throw, obviously after 3-4 seconds then the pressure was coming in.

 

It wasn't as if the Bills were getting immediate pressure, the reason why he was "running for his life" was because of the time he was afforded and he just stood back there looking for options and eventually the pressure was coming in.

 

A pressure is defined as getting 1.5 yards of the QB within 2.5 seconds of the snap. Nice try tho.

 

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12 hours ago, Logic said:


Yawn.

 

You claimed that I said that they invested as much on offense as they did on defense. I didn’t. 
 

My disagreeing with the notion that they didn’t invest in the offense is not the same as my saying that they invested as much on offense as they did on defense. 


But sure, go ahead and change the phrasing of what you’re accusing me of having said so that you can keep your “never been wrong even once” streak going. Par for the course.
 

Your constant personal attacks against my character — not my posts, mind you, but me as a person — your constant tagging me in posts, and your generally dismissive, arrogant, know-it-all demeanor are so tiresome. If you want to talk like an adult about football, great. Otherwise, please kindly keep my name out of your mouth.


He always gets his panties in a wad.

 

He tag me in posts even though I don’t respond to him ever.  He does the same thing to Yolo.  He’s a child. 

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On 6/13/2022 at 6:12 PM, eball said:


Maybe so, but only in the moment the pick occurs. Even a year later nobody is saying “bottom half of the first round pick Tre White.” He’s a first rounder.

 

Edmunds is basically a rookie.

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3 hours ago, gobills404 said:

The Bills had Mahomes running for his life all game. He just kept making crazy plays and/or dumping it off and watching Hill and McKinnon and Hardman get a ton of YAC.

Agree. They just couldn't get to him. It was frustrating. Perhaps, someone can shed some light on the Cinci game. The first half Mahomes had his way. However, in the 2nd half that Cinci D dominated the Chiefs offense. I remember them getting to Mahomes and rattling him too. Something tge Bills couldn't do. What did they do to dominate Mahomes? Surely, Mahomes played poorly too. 

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48 minutes ago, gobills404 said:

 

A pressure is defined as getting 1.5 yards of the QB within 2.5 seconds of the snap. Nice try tho.

 

Good try yourself.  Lets state the facts:

 

1. Against KC in playoffs

   a. Cincy generated 4 sacks, while rushing just 3 guys (with a spy) on quite a few occasions.  Mahomes ran 3x for 19 yards. KC had 375 total yards, 29 min TOP

   b. Buffalo generated 2 sacks.  Mahomes escaped 7x for 69 yards.  KC had 552 total yards and 36 min TOP

 

Single game, yes.  But like Magox said, it was obvious during the KC game and many times throughout the season, against above average offensez, what our 3 main problems were:

1. Lack of physicality up front/continued struggles in the run game

2. Lack of consistent pass rush, especially with our DEs.

3. Struggles at CB, emphasized once Tre went down.  We needed a CB who could matchup with speed and length..enter Elam.

  a. Levi struggled against big bodied and/or speed WRs.

  b. Dane is better against big bodied WRs than Levi, but also has issues with over the top speed

 

Pretty wasy to connect the dots and see what the front office/coaches thought were issues, based on the FA and draft priorities.  We invested big money on #2, our 1st round pick on #3, and a manageable amount of $$ to address #1.

 

You don't give up 550+ yards in the playoffs and think our pressure rate was good enough OR equivalent to what Cincy was able to adjust with.  Hubbard and Hendrickson, were leaps and bounds above Hughes and Mario.  No surprise we basically left 4 of our 10 key rotating DL walk in Fa or cut.

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13 hours ago, Logic said:


Yawn.

 

You claimed that I said that they invested as much on offense as they did on defense. I didn’t. 
 

My disagreeing with the notion that they didn’t invest in the offense is not the same as my saying that they invested as much on offense as they did on defense. 


But sure, go ahead and change the phrasing of what you’re accusing me of having said so that you can keep your “never been wrong even once” streak going. Par for the course.
 

Your constant personal attacks against my character — not my posts, mind you, but me as a person — your constant tagging me in posts, and your generally dismissive, arrogant, know-it-all demeanor are so tiresome. If you want to talk like an adult about football, great. Otherwise, please kindly keep my name out of your mouth.

 

 

Scott simply said they sacrificed investment on the offensive side of the ball in favor of defense.

 

Your response was to straw man Scott by saying they invested in ALL OF THESE offensive players...........when he had never said they didn't sign anyone on offense.

 

$90M investment in just 5 defensive players >>>> $25M (spread out over 14 offensive players)

 

So either you were being willfully ignorant or just being a jag off for the sake of it.   Don't pretend to be an injured party,  that's just weak. :rolleyes: 

 

You aren't ever going to have an "adult football conversation" when you are using that straw man technique.

 

You want more respect.........play better.  

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