Brandon Beane: Top priority for offseason - protecting Josh Allen

[MAJBobby]

1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I'd be obliged if you could find anything.

I will look for it. I know Trent Murphy called the paycut bluff back in year 2. Beane balked and it burnt him. Since then it hasn’t happened again. And why Butler was on this team instead of Jefferson because Butler took the pay cut Jefferson didn’t. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, Reed83HOF said:

John Miller = 🤮

 

He is still in the league

[SoCal Deek]

13 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

I remember at least 3 late Singletary TDs a little swing taken to endzone from 12-15 out. 
 

moss similar. but Bills WRs for as good as they run routes typically don’t break them. Beasley for example this year went down on first contact. 

 

 

I don't think the Bills were asking or expecting much tackle breaking from their WR group. They're just not that kind of receivers. But with that said, they didn't need to be. Offensive production was not the reason they didn't get to the Super Bowl this year.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

17 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

I will look for it. I know Trent Murphy called the paycut bluff back in year 2. Beane balked and it burnt him. Since then it hasn’t happened again. And why Butler was on this team instead of Jefferson because Butler took the pay cut Jefferson didn’t. 

 

I dunno about the "paycut", but one question Beane faced about Murphy from all the Armchair GMs was why the  Bills didn't cut him, when he wound up being inactive for 6 games late in the season.  Beane musta had his Crystal Ball covered up on opening day. 🙄

 

I highly doubt that Butler was on the Bills instead of Jefferson because Butler took a paycut.  Butler was platooning at 1TDT whilst Lotulelei was sitting it out which made him a more valuable player to the Bills given that they didn't know whether/in what shape Lotulelei would return. I also recall it being clear at the time that Jefferson had less dead money and was the  bigger cap savings to cut.

 

The Bills couldn't gain the cap room they needed by just restructuring, they had to actually release some guys.

 

I'm not saying that you can't be right about Beane not keeping a player who is asked to take a paycut and refuses - you may be, for all I know. 

 

I just think you may be off on some details Brown, Butler, Jefferson etc.

[sherpa]

Getting stronger in the offensive line is not going to come cheap this year, not that it ever does.

Cincinnati and Miami have the exact same priority, and will be in the bidding. 

I doubt average talents are going to take pay cuts.

[MAJBobby]

20 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I dunno about the "paycut", but one question Beane faced about Murphy from all the Armchair GMs was why the  Bills didn't cut him, when he wound up being inactive for 6 games late in the season.  Beane musta had his Crystal Ball covered up on opening day. 🙄

 

I highly doubt that Butler was on the Bills instead of Jefferson because Butler took a paycut.  Butler was platooning at 1TDT whilst Lotulelei was sitting it out which made him a more valuable player to the Bills given that they didn't know whether/in what shape Lotulelei would return. I also recall it being clear at the time that Jefferson had less dead money and was the  bigger cap savings to cut.

 

The Bills couldn't gain the cap room they needed by just restructuring, they had to actually release some guys.

 

I'm not saying that you can't be right about Beane not keeping a player who is asked to take a paycut and refuses - you may be, for all I know. 

 

I just think you may be off on some details Brown, Butler, Jefferson etc.

Brown and Johnson were cut the same time Butler and Morse agreed to pay cuts.  Star even agreed to paycut to stay.  all the timing is right in line with what has been talked about and reported.  But that is ok we can agree to disagree

[Hapless Bills Fan]

13 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

Brown and Johnson were cut the same time Butler and Morse agreed to pay cuts.  Star even agreed to paycut to stay.  all the timing is right in line with what has been talked about and reported.  But that is ok we can agree to disagree

 

The timing doesn't prove anything; this all happened right before the start of the new league year, when the Bills had to open cap to re-sign and sign FA.  (You left out Addison, he took a cut also).

 

I looked into it a bit.  Butler apparently took a $2M paycut in exchange for guaranteeing more 2021 salary.  I can't say that worked out for the Bills since he wasn't "all that" when he played last season.  But prior to that, I think he had more guaranteed salary than Jefferson had.  Jefferson saved the Bills $6.5M with minimal dead cap, and Brown saved $7.9M

 

If Jefferson was offered a paycut and refused, he was a big dummy because the Raiders only offered him $3.2M. 

 

But I don't think he was, nor Brown; the Bills had to make some outright cuts to free cap and those were the two guys with the least guaranteed/best savings

 

I mean, you can say "agree to disagree" but if you're building a big theory about Beane just cutting anyone who won't take a paycut then it behooves you to be real about the actual evidence that guys were actually asked to do so and declined; it's not a typical "agree to disagree" thing like whether Star Lotulelei is just overpaid, or actually the worst DT in the league (kidding, not putting that choice on ya), or whether Jon Feliciano was awful as a starter this season or only not as good as folks think (again parody)

 

Anyway I'm going to bow out because I appreciate all the position by position stuff you put together even when I disagree with some details, and I don't want to smack heads too much.

[WMDman]

bring me Shreff and Linderbaum please!

[John from Riverside]

1 hour ago, MAJBobby said:

So if he doesn’t take the paycut is he staying? Trent Murphy called Beanes paycut bluff back in the day and Beane blinked and got burnt. Won’t happen again. 
 

brown was approached with a paycut and he said no. Brown was released. Only way Williams stays is with a straight paycut. At least IMO 

I think Williams offers OT flex that makes him a keeper at the right price.   Would love to see a player drafted that moves him to the bench at the right price.

[MAJBobby]

26 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

The timing doesn't prove anything; this all happened right before the start of the new league year, when the Bills had to open cap to re-sign and sign FA.  (You left out Addison, he took a cut also).

 

I looked into it a bit.  Butler apparently took a $2M paycut in exchange for guaranteeing more 2021 salary.  I can't say that worked out for the Bills since he wasn't "all that" when he played last season.  But prior to that, I think he had more guaranteed salary than Jefferson had.  Jefferson saved the Bills $6.5M with minimal dead cap, and Brown saved $7.9M

 

If Jefferson was offered a paycut and refused, he was a big dummy because the Raiders only offered him $3.2M. 

 

But I don't think he was, nor Brown; the Bills had to make some outright cuts to free cap and those were the two guys with the least guaranteed/best savings

 

I mean, you can say "agree to disagree" but if you're building a big theory about Beane just cutting anyone who won't take a paycut then it behooves you to be real about the actual evidence that guys were actually asked to do so and declined; it's not a typical "agree to disagree" thing like whether Star Lotulelei is just overpaid, or actually the worst DT in the league (kidding, not putting that choice on ya), or whether Jon Feliciano was awful as a starter this season or only not as good as folks think (again parody)

 

Anyway I'm going to bow out because I appreciate all the position by position stuff you put together even when I disagree with some details, and I don't want to smack heads too much.

No I am building a theory that Williams agrees to a paycut or is gone. And I am working on this offseason I don’t have time to data mine 2019 offseason to find the reports. I said I will get around to that. 
 

just a heads up for the OL breakout you will see me take the stance on Williams as I have here. He either takes a paycut or I would move on (however I also will acknowledge that Kromer gets a say). But a RT cap hit for a RG is too much and needs to be addressed to free space. 

1 hour ago, SoCal Deek said:

I don't think the Bills were asking or expecting much tackle breaking from their WR group. They're just not that kind of receivers. But with that said, they didn't need to be. Offensive production was not the reason they didn't get to the Super Bowl this year.

No it wasn’t. But at the same time if people want to talk about the lack of YAC in this group they also have to look at the Route Trees. We don’t run a lot of routes that would naturally generate those possibilities. Maybe Dorsey’s offense will. (Hoping) because the minute we faced Zone Bills WRs went to the stop routes in Holes. 
 

when continuing say a skinny post through the Zone with a on time ball can easily be taken to the house with at least 3 of our WRs (Diggs, Davis, Stevenson). I don’t put Beasley there because IMO the speed isn’t there. But taking a 5 yard route to 12 yards (adding 7-10 yards of YAC) is. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 minute ago, MAJBobby said:

No I am building a theory that Williams agrees to a paycut or is gone. And I am working on this offseason I don’t have time to data mine 2019 offseason to find the reports. I said I will get around to that. 
 

just a heads up for the OL breakout you will see me take the stance on Williams as I have here. He either takes a paycut or I would move on (however I also will acknowledge that Kromer gets a say). But a RT cap hit for a RG is too much and needs to be addressed to free space. 

 

 

Now we're into "Agree to Disagree" territory.

 

Williams cap hit is $9.9M, with $3.6M dead cap and $7.1M new cash ($6.3M savings)

 

In AAV he's currently paid as the #10 highest paid RT, but as something like the #16th highest paid Guard (Spotrac doesn't break out LG and RG)

 

I think that means the top Gs get paid more than the top RTs, and Williams is actually more overpaid as a T than as a G. The #10 paid guard is currently pulling in $11M AAV; this year's cap hit would slot him in at #13 paid guard. 

 

I'm not sure I see anyone out there in FA who is likely to improve on him at RG for the $6.3M we save by cutting him, and he has that positional flexibility that Beane loves.  https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-agents/all/guard/all/

 

What I think is that Williams wants to be a RT, and it's possible the Beanemeister might try to trade him if there's a good backstory about why he wasn't gettin' it done at RT this season.

 

 

1 hour ago, sherpa said:

Getting stronger in the offensive line is not going to come cheap this year, not that it ever does.

Cincinnati and Miami have the exact same priority, and will be in the bidding. 

I doubt average talents are going to take pay cuts.

 

This

[Doc]

Unless they can find an upgrade, for similar money as Williams would save, quickly in FA ($4.35M of his 2022 salary guarantees on 3/20, 3 days after FA begins), then you don't cut him.  Maybe approach him for a pay cut or contract extension to lower his average salary.  And then tell him to concentrate on being a RG going forward.  The cap is higher this year and teams will be looking to overpay OL.

[Motor26]

Want them to target James Daniels and Laken Tomlinson in free agency. Daniel’s can play both  guard spots and center so Beane will like that versatility.

[BADOLBILZ]

12 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

I appear to be in the minority here but the O Line was fine down the stretch once they settled on their starting five.  I’m not as concerned as others on here with regard to Williams paycheck. If Spencer gets injured for a game of two they’ll Williams slide back outside and it won’t matter. So what do they need to do this offseason:

 

1. Acquire good depth through the draft and free agency especially at OG and C.

 

2. Work with the new OC and OL Coach on technique and assignments 

 

 

 

 

First of all..........though the line improved late......Allen put a ton of hard miles on this season because of shoddy protection.   The Bills OL gave up more combined pressues+sacks than the much maligned Bengals OL.....126 to 100.

 

They were not good.

 

Second.......we should learn about running it back with players who don't have enough history to justify it.

 

 So while  I am excited about the potential of Spencer Brown,  he really struggled at times and we graded him on a rookie scale.    Remember that Cody Ford was the starting RT on the 2019 playoff team,  Von Miller talked him up after their matchup, and it was assumed he was the RT of the future.   Then he has been garbage since.

 

Daryl Williams was an All Pro RT for one season in Carolina......then got injured and missed most of a year and came back the next season and played very poorly even at guard..........came to Buffalo and played excellent at RT.........got paid......and played poorly and appeared out of shape and had to be moved to guard.     I think his commitment to the game might be in question at this point.    

 

Feliciano really dropped off last year after getting paid.   Ryan Bates has only started a few games.

 

Morse and Dawkins are the only two starting OL who have strung together 2 straight good season anytime recently........and there have been rumors that Morse may retire.

 

They really can't afford to just run it back again..........that really failed miserably for 3/4 of the season.    

 

 

[hemma]

6 hours ago, sherpa said:

Getting stronger in the offensive line is not going to come cheap this year, not that it ever does.

Cincinnati and Miami have the exact same priority, and will be in the bidding. 

I doubt average talents are going to take pay cuts.

Trade Williams to Cincinnati.

They have money to somewhat overpay a guy, we don’t.  

Maybe we get a 5th.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

27 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

First of all..........though the line improved late......Allen put a ton of hard miles on this season because of shoddy protection.   The Bills OL gave up more combined pressues+sacks than the much maligned Bengals OL.....126 to 100.

 

They were not good.

 

When we weren't allowing defenses to pin their ears back and have at us in pass pro because we had no run threat and when we settled on an OL - I thought we were OK in pass pro (end of the season)

 

But disallowing defenses to pin their ears back, came at the price of 1)more designed runs for Josh Allen 2) taking offensive skill players off the field in favor of (2,1) or (1,2) sets with Gilliam or Doyle.  Josh went from 2, 2, 8, 6 rushes per game to 12, 12, 15.  12 attempts and 109 rush yards against Tampa?  Not healthy for Our Guy.   And only 3 targets in the passing game makes that easier to defend.

 

Why?  Because without the threat of Josh running and the extra blockers, our OL simply wasn't good enough to get a run game going on (pretty sure I'm preaching to the choir here, but for others in the thread).  And we need at least the threat or uncertainty of the run game going on, to keep the pass game opened up.

 

So I 100% agree that we need more than "depth".  Beane referred to our OL as "something to build on" and I hope he means "build" in the sense of bring guys in, through FA and draft, that we have reason to believe will be an immediate step up on what we had at the end of last season.

 

27 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 So while  I am excited about the potential of Spencer Brown,  he really struggled at times and we graded him on a rookie scale.    Remember that Cody Ford was the starting RT on the 2019 playoff team,  Von Miller talked him up after their matchup, and it was assumed he was the RT of the future.   Then he has been garbage since.

 

Remember Ford was platooning with Ty Nseckhe in 2019 AND they brought Williams in as a FA in 2020.  Fans may have assumed Ford was the RT of the future, but those two factors say to me that Beane and Co. had their doubts.

 

Anyway, agree that on OL, we really can't "run it back", we have to make a serious push to upgrade.  Hopefully Beane sees that too, from what he's said.

14 minutes ago, hemma said:

Trade Williams to Cincinnati.

They have money to somewhat overpay a guy, we don’t.  

Maybe we get a 5th.

 

And replace Williams with who?  A 5th round draft pick?

 

C'mon Man

[Punching Bag]

15 hours ago, eball said:

They already went a long way towards protecting Josh when they brought Beach Chairs back into the mix.

 

Forget beach chairs.  They brought in a consultant "Stone Cold" Steve Austin to teach line how to fight dirty.

 

 

15 hours ago, MAJBobby said:

Buh bye Feliciano and Williams. 
 

going to anticipate a lot of changes for when I get to my OL write up. 

 

Williams will likely remain as guard and be asked to take a pay check with incentives earnable via RT snaps to earn some of it back.

Edited February 17, 2022 by Limeaid

[Buffalo Ballin]

Agreed with Beane. Look at Andrew Luck. Look at Joe Burrow. I don't want that for us.

 

Tom Brady, Patrick Mahomes, Peyton Manning, Russell Wilson, and Ben Roethlisberger had great protection and that's why their careers are great.

 

It's also a new era for the Buffalo Bills: The "Unleashed" Josh Allen. No more conservative play calling. Let Josh Allen throw for over 5000 yards, 45 touchdowns. It's time now starting next season. We have Stefon Diggs, Gabriel Davis, Knox, and MacKenzie. We have the WR corp to make this happen.

 

The final thing is strengthen the O-line.

Edited February 17, 2022 by Buffalo Ballin

[Motor26]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

First of all..........though the line improved late......Allen put a ton of hard miles on this season because of shoddy protection.   The Bills OL gave up more combined pressues+sacks than the much maligned Bengals OL.....126 to 100.

 

They were not good.

 

Second.......we should learn about running it back with players who don't have enough history to justify it.

 

 So while  I am excited about the potential of Spencer Brown,  he really struggled at times and we graded him on a rookie scale.    Remember that Cody Ford was the starting RT on the 2019 playoff team,  Von Miller talked him up after their matchup, and it was assumed he was the RT of the future.   Then he has been garbage since.

 

Daryl Williams was an All Pro RT for one season in Carolina......then got injured and missed most of a year and came back the next season and played very poorly even at guard..........came to Buffalo and played excellent at RT.........got paid......and played poorly and appeared out of shape and had to be moved to guard.     I think his commitment to the game might be in question at this point.    

 

Feliciano really dropped off last year after getting paid.   Ryan Bates has only started a few games.

 

Morse and Dawkins are the only two starting OL who have strung together 2 straight good season anytime recently........and there have been rumors that Morse may retire.

 

They really can't afford to just run it back again..........that really failed miserably for 3/4 of the season.    

 

 

I get not being 100% sold on Brown, however with the salary cap situation I think they’re going to have to roll with him. Feliciano should be gone, Williams I’d ask for a pay cut or maybe even cut him if they find a replacement for him. Bates shouldn’t cost much to keep. The only real glaring hole on defense is CB2, since they’re gonna be rolling with Edmunds and Milano at LB, safeties are set. Not going to invest big on edge defenders in the draft, those dudes need to start to put it together. Maybe a vet edge rusher. 1 techs aren’t expensive. 

[BADOLBILZ]

1 minute ago, Motor26 said:

I get not being 100% sold on Brown, however with the salary cap situation I think they’re going to have to roll with him. Feliciano should be gone, Williams I’d ask for a pay cut or maybe even cut him if they find a replacement for him. Bates shouldn’t cost much to keep. The only real glaring hole on defense is CB2, since they’re gonna be rolling with Edmunds and Milano at LB, safeties are set. Not going to invest big on edge defenders in the draft, those dudes need to start to put it together. Maybe a vet edge rusher. 1 techs aren’t expensive. 

 

Mostly agree but I don't think the situation with Brown is any different than it was with Cody Ford going into 2020.    Brown had some struggles and had back issues as well.   He has great potential but still too much to prove to assume he's going to keep improving.   Ford certainly did not.........he regressed.