Democracy’s Fiery Ordeal: The War in Ukraine 🇺🇦

[All_Pro_Bills]

On 4/9/2022 at 5:51 PM, sherpa said:

 

As someone who has served in the US military as an officer and was involved in ROE, and very familiar with what and how the US conducts itself, I find any comparison with what the Russians have done in the Ukraine with how how the US military operates to be grossly ignorant and insulting.

 

Bad things happen in war. Intent and professionalism are important.

Barbarisms and murder cannot be tolerated.

 

Let me say my intent was not to dishonor the soldier in the field or their standard of conduct.  I'm talking leadership.  And you can call it what you want but considering how many wars our country engages in vs. the rest of the world (all for good intentions of course) our government's belief in its moral and ethical superiority is always the excuse for a lack of accountability.   

Edited April 12, 2022 by All_Pro_Bills

[B-Man]

 

 

Chemical weapons ?

 

Not so fast.

 

 

 

[Tiberius]

6 minutes ago, B-Man said:

 

 

Chemical weapons ?

 

Not so fast.

 

 

 

Let's hope not. Putin's war crimes are already bad enough. 

[Big Blitz]

Have we resolved *Democracy's" fiery ordeal yet?

[sherpa]

3 hours ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

Let me say my intent was not to dishonor the soldier in the field or their standard of conduct.  I'm talking leadership.  And you can call it what you want but considering how many wars our country engages in vs. the rest of the world (all for good intentions of course) our government's belief in its moral and ethical superiority is always the excuse for a lack of accountability.   

 

You can frame your view any way you desire.

In point of fact, the US military has had its issues with improper behavior over the years.

Those individuals, once identified, have for the most part, been prosecuted.

 

We have lost thousands of our folks abiding by the rules of engagement that are specific to each situation.

 

What is going on in the Ukraine bears no resemblance to anything the US has done.

[Coffeesforclosers]

Mariupol is about to fall for real this time.  Ukraine's 36th Naval Infantry Brigade (part of the garrison) sent out their farewell video today.  Pretty much said that they'd fought to the last bullet and that Ukraine should keep on fighting until it wins.

 

*Somehow* Ukraine was sneaking ammunition through Russian lines to these guys, but Russia overran the drop zones in the last 72 hours.

 

 

Edited April 12, 2022 by Coffeesforclosers

[Niagara Bill]

Putin is now mouthing off, what he us going to do, he is worried...it is time for NATO to take action. Genocide is not acceptable in our society. 4 million Ukrainians died in 1932/33 because of Russia. It is time for Russia to pay. Ukraine must be given weapons that will strike inside Russia. Putin must be unseated. 

[sherpa]

1 hour ago, Niagara Bill said:

Putin is now mouthing off, what he us going to do, he is worried...it is time for NATO to take action. Genocide is not acceptable in our society. 4 million Ukrainians died in 1932/33 because of Russia. It is time for Russia to pay. Ukraine must be given weapons that will strike inside Russia. Putin must be unseated. 

 

Not to quibble, but I doubt the Ukraine has the ability to employ weapons that would penetrate Russia, and the effort might be catastrophic for the rest of the world.

Name specifics, 'cause that's where the rubber meets the road.

[Niagara Bill]

18 minutes ago, sherpa said:

 

Not to quibble, but I doubt the Ukraine has the ability to employ weapons that would penetrate Russia, and the effort might be catastrophic for the rest of the world.

Name specifics, 'cause that's where the rubber meets the road.

Genocide to a Christian nation, to a nation loved and trusted for 100 years by the west is being terrorized. We defended Afghans for goodness sake. We defended Vietnam, WTF are we doing. If this was Italy what would we do. 

 

Putin must be stopped. NOW.  Remember 1938.

[Chef Jim]

2 hours ago, Niagara Bill said:

Genocide to a Christian nation, to a nation loved and trusted for 100 years by the west is being terrorized. We defended Afghans for goodness sake. We defended Vietnam, WTF are we doing. If this was Italy what would we do. 

 

Putin must be stopped. NOW.  Remember 1938.

How do you suggest we stop him?

[Big Blitz]

3 hours ago, Niagara Bill said:

Genocide to a Christian nation, to a nation loved and trusted for 100 years by the west is being terrorized. We defended Afghans for goodness sake. We defended Vietnam, WTF are we doing. If this was Italy what would we do. 

 

Putin must be stopped. NOW.  Remember 1938.

 

 

What?  Are you talking about the 1934 famine?  

 

Stalin and communism killed ALL Russians.  Yes especially Ukrainians that resisted the commies in 1917. 

 

This is not the same. 

 

Actually wait.....yes.  Maybe it is like Vietnam or Afghanistan or even Israel!

 

 

We'll find the descendants of the first Kievan Rus that sailed along the Dneiper River and settled Kiev and their "rightful" claims to Russia.  Make sure we get all the ethnicities right and claims correct.  

[sherpa]

4 hours ago, Niagara Bill said:

Genocide to a Christian nation, to a nation loved and trusted for 100 years by the west is being terrorized. We defended Afghans for goodness sake. We defended Vietnam, WTF are we doing. If this was Italy what would we do. 

 

Putin must be stopped. NOW.  Remember 1938.

 

Italy is a member of NATO, so the answer is obvious.

 

Putin isn't Hitler, and the Russian military "performance" is nothing like what the Germans did at the start of WWII.

In short, his advance is already pretty much geographically stopped.

 

Again, how is the Ukraine going to conduct offensive operations inside Russia?

Further, NATO being what it is now, with Canada and Germany, among others,  not keeping up their military capabilities, anything done would be overwhelmingly US, and this isn't our fight, yet.

We can't be everyone's big brother all the time.

[L Ron Burgundy]

9 hours ago, Niagara Bill said:

Genocide to a Christian nation, to a nation loved and trusted for 100 years by the west is being terrorized. We defended Afghans for goodness sake. We defended Vietnam, WTF are we doing. If this was Italy what would we do. 

 

Putin must be stopped. NOW.  Remember 1938.

Eh, loved might be a bit much.  Ukraine is a fairly corrupt country though theyd been making progress.  Were they loved someone would have already stepped in more actively.  I know that's harsh but just keeping it real.

[Niagara Bill]

9 hours ago, Big Blitz said:

 

 

What?  Are you talking about the 1934 famine?  

 

Stalin and communism killed ALL Russians.  Yes especially Ukrainians that resisted the commies in 1917. 

 

This is not the same. 

 

Actually wait.....yes.  Maybe it is like Vietnam or Afghanistan or even Israel!

 

 

We'll find the descendants of the first Kievan Rus that sailed along the Dneiper River and settled Kiev and their "rightful" claims to Russia.  Make sure we get all the ethnicities right and claims correct.  

Ukraine had 4 million die when Stalin took all their grain and food😀

[Niagara Bill]

3 hours ago, L Ron Burgundy said:

Eh, loved might be a bit much.  Ukraine is a fairly corrupt country though theyd been making progress.  Were they loved someone would have already stepped in more actively.  I know that's harsh but just keeping it real.

Canada has thousands of Ukrainian immigrants over past 75 years. Very successful. Assimilation has been incredible. There is no crime syndicate. 

Corruption came to Ukraine with Russia connections. 

Ukraine cannot get out from under the Russia shadow because of grain, minerals and power production.

[ALF]

Ukrainian pilot reveals what his country's military really needs in fight against Russia

Pilot says Ukraine’s Air Force has had 'a lot of losses'

"But in general, we cannot gain a real air superiority, unfortunately," he said, adding that Western countries should supply Ukraine with more advanced air-defense systems if they can’t receive updated planes. 

 

https://www.foxnews.com/world/ukrainian-pilot-reveals-what-his-military-needs-against-russia

[sherpa]

17 minutes ago, ALF said:

Ukrainian pilot reveals what his country's military really needs in fight against Russia

 

The Cliff Notes version of this is that what the Ukraine wants, regarding their airspace problem, is first line US stuff, and that isn't going to happen.

[ALF]

When Russia took over Crimea and invaded the Donbas region starting in 2014 the US and NATO should have started training and equipping Ukraine with more advanced SAM and Jets. Once the Russian puppet there was thrown out at that time .

 

The annexation of Crimea by the Russian Federation took place in the aftermath of the 2014 Ukrainian revolution. 

 

During his presidency, Poroshenko 2014-19 led the country through the first phase of the War in Donbas, pushing the Russian separatist forces into the Donbas Region. He began the process of integration with the European Union by signing the European Union–Ukraine Association Agreement.

[sherpa]

11 minutes ago, ALF said:

When Russia took over Crimea and invaded the Donbas region starting in 2014 the US and NATO should have started training and equipping Ukraine with more advanced SAM and Jets. Once the Russian puppet there was thrown out at that time .

 

I am really reticent to comment on this, but these things are far more complicated than is ever discussed on message boards.

It is very difficult and extremely threatening to swap military suppliers.

 

For the Ukraine to suddenly decide to swap their Russian defense system to a US/NATO system would have been incredibly aggressive as seen by the Russians.

Basically a NATO agreement.

 

Further, the Ukrainian regime is not known for lack of corruption, and keeping US top shelf stuff away from hostile foreigners is a big part of defense trade, and always a huge consideration.

See the refusal to sell F-35's to Turkey, a NATO country.

 

I have no doubt that when this thing comes to an end a good deal of US taxpayer paid military material will be ultimately sold to the highest bidder, no matter how despicable.

 

The thought of providing the Ukraine with top of the line "stuff," and the training required to use it is not realistic nor advisable.

 

 

 

[ALF]

The west is talking about sending there S300  SAM  and could have sent the  Mig-29 before this latest invasion (better then nothing