Democracy’s Fiery Ordeal: The War in Ukraine 🇺🇦

[ALF]

By now it may be too late to send enough military equipment to Ukraine . Russia will become a real outcast for the West if they go further then the 2 provinces. The present NATO countries should be safe I would hope. Cyber warfare  could be a big problem .

 

China criticizes Western sanctions on Russia

 

China has criticized Western sanctions on Russia and said it will not follow suit, calling the measures "never a fundamental and effective way to solve problems” and saying it "always opposes any illegal unilateral sanctions."

 

https://www.cnn.com/europe/live-news/ukraine-russia-news-02-23-22/index.html

Edited February 23, 2022 by ALF

[Tiberius]

9 hours ago, Precision said:

What could sleepy have done differently?  Maybe Biden could have said something like "We are evaluating our military options." or "No response is off the table." or "We plan on responding appropriately to the actions the Russians take." 

 

Instead, we get:

WASHINGTON, Dec 8 (Reuters) - U.S. President Joe Biden said on Wednesday putting American troops on the ground in Ukraine to deter a potential Russian invasion was "not on the table" and he hoped to announce a meeting with Russia and other NATO countries by Friday.

 

But we have some really scary sanctions coming, oh no!

 

What kind of fool shows their hand ahead of time?  He might as well have written Putin a letter telling him exactly what we will do every step of the way. 

 

If an idiot goes to a car dealer and says their willing to pay MSRP, they're going to get the car for......MSRP.  

 

What would I have done?  I would have moved 50K troops, an Armored Division and a couple of squadrons of F-35's and F-22's to southeast Poland for "exercises".  Then I would have told Putin "Whether you like it or don't like it, bear with it, my beauty".

Well, it’s interesting language. It’s public language. We don’t know what’s been said privately. . Speak softly and carry a big stick. There’s a joke video out there with Biden saying it about Obama, but he was being serious and I suspect he has told Putin about the big stick. We have drones. Very powerful ones. Those Russian tanks can be simply destroyed. That’s not boots on the ground. Ukraine is getting stronger everyday with all sorts of weapons flowing in, so the Abe Lincoln tactic of stalling helps Ukraine and hurts Russia. 

 

Im going to predict that if a Russian army starts a major invasion, it gets wiped out by Ukrainians on the ground and a multi-national drone response in the air. At least I hope. 

6 hours ago, sherpa said:

 

Why do you habitually post nonsense like this?

You don't have the ability to irritate me. 

What you do is post views on things you have no knowledge of, and while babysitting my 11 month old granddaughter who has just learned to walk and requires constant supervision, I can do that and read your stuff with little effort.

Otherwise I wouldn't read it and wouldn't respond. 

Oh, sorry 

11 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

What now?

We already know what Trump would do! He was President for FOUR YEARS..not fifteen minutes! We wouldn’t be in this situation. Almost forty pages now devoted to another Biden mess. 

Remember the only time ramped up for war? When his friends in the kingdom of Saudi Arabia were attacked by Iran. Now he’s wooing them for a golf tournament. 

[Tiberius]

6 hours ago, BillStime said:

freakn brainwashed 

Why doesn’t Tucker Trump highlight any of Putin’s atrocities? 

Part of Putin’s calculation is that he has so many friends and admirers of his brutality here in US. Disgusting! 

[Governor]

There’s about to be a lot of empty Russian yachts in the port of Miami.

[Westside]

I’m more worried about china than russia. That doesn’t mean I support russia I don’t trust them either.

With potato head joe in china’s back pocket, that worries me way more than russia possibly invading Ukrainian.

We’re already being invaded by china.

 

I say ***** them both.

[All_Pro_Bills]

1 hour ago, Tiberius said:

Part of Putin’s calculation is that he has so many friends and admirers of his brutality here in US. Disgusting! 

So now its "America right or wrong".  That was a catchy slogan from the time of a past conflict.  But now the same people expressing contempt and horror over the "nationalist" MAGA based themes of the previous administration, accusing them of being xenophobic Nazi's and other things, are embracing the idea that everyone toe the line without question and blindly pledge their unwavering support for the administration while also admonishing anyone that has the audacity to criticize the bumbling Biden administration then accuse them of supporting the enemy?  Thar's quite a 180.         

Edited February 23, 2022 by All_Pro_Bills

[Governor]

23 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

Obama must have put those ‘resources’ in the drawer right next to the PPE he left for Trump. No wonder the world couldn’t find them. 

You should go back and look at what Obama did in the last 2 weeks of his presidency.

 

Personally, I think Obama was soft on Russia. I view cyber warfare as an act of war, so I would’ve bombed them years ago.

[Tiberius]

6 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

So now its "America right or wrong".  That was a catchy slogan from the time of a past conflict.  But now the same people expressing contempt and horror over the "nationalist" MAGA based themes of the previous administration, accusing them of being xenophobic Nazi's and other things, are embracing the idea that everyone toe the line without question and blindly pledge their unwavering support for the administration while also admonishing anyone that has the audacity to criticize the bumbling Biden administration then accuse them of supporting the enemy?  Thar's quite a 180.         

You don't think Putin is happy he has friends here trying to limit our response to his aggression? 

[BillsFanNC]

 

[Tiberius]

Just now, BillsFanNC said:

 

? 

[All_Pro_Bills]

1 minute ago, Tiberius said:

You don't think Putin is happy he has friends here trying to limit our response to his aggression? 

I think you're an idealist that can't see the grey areas between your black and white view of these conflicts. 

[Tiberius]

Just now, All_Pro_Bills said:

I think you're an idealist that can't see the grey areas between your black and white view of these conflicts. 

I was asking you about Putin 

[SoCal Deek]

5 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

I was asking you about Putin 

Tibs…has ANYONE on here said anything positive about Putin? Those of us who don’t want to get embroiled in an Eastern European war aren’t fans of Vladimir. We just don’t want to go to war in the Ukraine. You seriously don’t get that? Seriously?

[All_Pro_Bills]

3 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

I was asking you about Putin 

So nobody should be criticizing the administration?  Because you equate that criticism to support of Putin?  That thinking is the missing grey area I was pointing out.  Because I can be both critical of Biden and critical of Putin at the same time.  Its not a binary choice.

[Tiberius]

Just now, SoCal Deek said:

Tibs…has ANYONE on here said anything positive about Putin? Those of us who don’t want to get embroiled in an Eastern European war aren’t fans of Vladimir. We just don’t want to go to war in the Ukraine. You seriously don’t get that? Seriously?

Not wanting to help Ukraine helps Putin, right? 

1 minute ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

So nobody should be criticizing the administration?  Because you equate that criticism to support of Putin?  That thinking is the missing grey area I was pointing out.  Because I can be both critical of Biden and critical of Putin at the same time.  Its not a binary choice.

How bad is Putin, in your opinion? 

[SoCal Deek]

2 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Not wanting to help Ukraine helps Putin, right? 

 

Ugh….those opposed to the war you’re apparently dying to see play out have suggested a number if things that would’ve ‘hurt’ Putin. But since the current administration has done none of those things, now you want to send Americans to die? That’s your point? Again, really? Really? 

[Tiberius]

2 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Ugh….those opposed to the war you’re apparently dying to see play out have suggested a number if things that would’ve ‘hurt’ Putin. But since the current administration has done none of those things, now you want to send Americans to die? That’s your point? Again, really? Really? 

You want us to stay completely out of the conflict, correct? 

[Doc]

1 minute ago, Tiberius said:

You want us to stay completely out of the conflict, correct? 

 

So you want Americans to die over the conflict?

[SoCal Deek]

Just now, Tiberius said:

You want us to stay completely out of the conflict, correct? 

Actually, no. I want the Biden Administration to get to work! For starters, if they’re really serious, you definitely do NOT send Kamala over there to do whatever she thought she was doing. Wake up! 

[Tiberius]

1 minute ago, Doc said:

 

So you want Americans to die over the conflict?

Don't think they will have to. We can destroy the Russian army without any boots on the ground 

2 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Actually, no. I want the Biden Administration to get to work! For starters, if they’re really serious, you definitely do NOT send Kamala over there to do whatever she thought she was doing. Wake up! 

Oh 

[SoCal Deek]

1 minute ago, Tiberius said:

Don't think they will have to. We can destroy the Russian army without any boots on the ground 

 

Who are you? Little Rocket Man? 

[Tiberius]

1 minute ago, SoCal Deek said:

Who are you? Little Rocket Man? 

I'm tall! 

[SoCal Deek]

10 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

I'm tall! 

Now THAT made me laugh. 👍Keep your sense of humor Tibs.

 

And remember we’re talking about war here. Really young men on both sides are going to be sent off to die because really old men can’t work out their problems. Pathetic. 

[Tiberius]

1 minute ago, SoCal Deek said:

Now THAT made me laugh. 👍Keep your sense of humor Tibs.

 

And remember we’re talking about war here. Really young men on both sides are going to be sent off to die because really old men can’t work out their problems. Pathetic. 

Well, its all Putin's fault. Refusing to recognize Ukraine as a sovereign nation and threatening to bring the horrors of war to innocent people is evil. 

 

You know he wants to destroy Ukraine because it is a successful democracy with a growing economy? It's making Putin's authoritarian regime look bad. 

[ALF]

Ukraine should agree to stay neutral and not join NATO if Russia will leave now. It's not worth fighting over the 2 provinces that are mainly Russian speaking. Putin is ruthless at this point. 

[Doc]

28 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Don't think they will have to. We can destroy the Russian army without any boots on the ground 

 

So that's it?  You send air strikes against the Russian army and that's it?  LOL!

[Tiberius]

4 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

So that's it?  You send air strikes against the Russian army and that's it?  LOL!

In conjunction with the Ukrainian army and drones from many other nations, ya, there’s going to be a lot of burning Russian tanks, armored personal carriers, self propelled artillery and trucks. Attacking units are always vulnerable to attack 

[All_Pro_Bills]

33 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

In conjunction with the Ukrainian army and drones from many other nations, ya, there’s going to be a lot of burning Russian tanks, armored personal carriers, self propelled artillery and trucks. Attacking units are always vulnerable to attack 

This might escalate quickly when they sink one of your carriers running sorties out of the Black Sea.

[BillStime]

1 hour ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

I think you're an idealist that can't see the grey areas between your black and white view of these conflicts. 

There is no black or white.

 

Either you support democracy or you don’t.
 

Putin HATES our way of life and wants to ensure his people and interests get no taste of the checks and balances of democracy over his power. 

 

It’s that simple.

 

 

 

 

[All_Pro_Bills]

Just now, BillStime said:

There is no black or white.

 

Either you support democracy or you don’t.
 

Putin HATES our way of life and wants to ensure his people and interests get no taste of the checks and balances of democracy over his power. 

 

It’s that simple.

 

 

 

 

You're contradicting yourself.  Saying there is no black and white and then offering up a black and white choice.

 

Sure we support democracy.  That's not an issue.  The issue is at what cost?  Given your unwavering support that no cost is too great to support democracy are you willing to sacrifice your life and the lives of close friends and family in order to uphold that absolute and unqualified principle?  Maybe where someone stands depends on what "skin" they have in the game.  It's that simple.

[Tiberius]

42 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

This might escalate quickly when they sink one of your carriers running sorties out of the Black Sea.

Drones won’t need carriers 

[SoCal Deek]

29 minutes ago, BillStime said:

There is no black or white.

 

Either you support democracy or you don’t.
 

Putin HATES our way of life and wants to ensure his people and interests get no taste of the checks and balances of democracy over his power. 

 

It’s that simple.

 

 

 

 

It’s nowhere near that simple.

[Tiberius]

12 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

You're contradicting yourself.  Saying there is no black and white and then offering up a black and white choice.

 

Sure we support democracy.  That's not an issue.  The issue is at what cost?  Given your unwavering support that no cost is too great to support democracy are you willing to sacrifice your life and the lives of close friends and family in order to uphold that absolute and unqualified principle?  Maybe where someone stands depends on what "skin" they have in the game.  It's that simple.

We won’t have to put American lives on the line. The Ukrainians are going to fight for their nation, we are giving them more weapons by the minute, anti tank weapons, anti aircraft weapons, killer drones and lots of sniper rifles. I hope we support that with our drones. Here is a good  weapon. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/military/kamikaze-drones-new-weapon-brings-power-peril-u-s-military-n1285415

 

And this new generation of Raptor drones are pretty nasty https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Atomics_MQ-9_Reaper

With a 66 ft (20 m) wingspan, and a maximum payload of 3,800 lb (1,700 kg), the MQ-9 can be armed with a variety of weaponry, including Hellfire missiles and 500 lb (230 kg) laser-guided bomb units.[36] Its endurance is 30 hours when conducting ISR missions, which decreases to 23 hours if it is carrying a full weapons load.[37] The Reaper has a range of 1,000 nmi (1,150 mi; 1,850 km)[dubious – discuss] and an operational altitude of 50,000 ft (15,000 m), which makes it especially useful for long-term loitering operations, both for surveillance and support of ground troops.[38

 

Yikes! 

 

5 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

It’s nowhere near that simple.

Actually it is 

 

https://www.npr.org/2022/02/15/1081009674/russia-opposition-leader-alexei-navalny-new-trial-prison-putin

 

 

[SoCal Deek]

2 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

We won’t have to put American lives on the line. The Ukrainians are going to fight for their nation, we are giving them more weapons by the minute, anti tank weapons, anti aircraft weapons, killer drones and lots of sniper rifles. I hope we support that with our drones. Here is a good  weapon. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/military/kamikaze-drones-new-weapon-brings-power-peril-u-s-military-n1285415

 

And this new generation of Raptor drones are pretty nasty https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Atomics_MQ-9_Reaper

With a 66 ft (20 m) wingspan, and a maximum payload of 3,800 lb (1,700 kg), the MQ-9 can be armed with a variety of weaponry, including Hellfire missiles and 500 lb (230 kg) laser-guided bomb units.[36] Its endurance is 30 hours when conducting ISR missions, which decreases to 23 hours if it is carrying a full weapons load.[37] The Reaper has a range of 1,000 nmi (1,150 mi; 1,850 km)[dubious – discuss] and an operational altitude of 50,000 ft (15,000 m), which makes it especially useful for long-term loitering operations, both for surveillance and support of ground troops.[38

 

Yikes! 

 

Actually it is 

 

https://www.npr.org/2022/02/15/1081009674/russia-opposition-leader-alexei-navalny-new-trial-prison-putin

 

 

No it’s not. 

[TH3]

Tragic how the "conservatives" here or whatever you identify yourself as these days - bend yourselves into pretzals to defend/surmise your contrived ideas...

[sherpa]

Is this a joke?

In the visionary strike planner Field Marshall Tiberious', proposal, there are a number of omissions.

 

First and most obvious, what the hell happened to Russian air defenses or indeed their Air Force?

Do they simply no longer exist?

 

Second, this huge deployment would take quite a bit of time.

All of these Russian ground forces would be integrated in Ukrainian villages or in some way hidden.

Think this proposed, (though undefined), coalition is going to start launching weapons into Ukrainian villages?

 

Third, does the proposal have any understanding of the weaknesses of drones?

They are relatively low payload vehicles, generate an incredibly easy radar and heat signature, so are easily detected, especially when carrying weapons, have no defensive maneuverability are very slow, and proven to be jammable.

One fighter could probably take down eight of them on a single sortie if they were closely positioned.

 

Oh ya. Wait. The Russian Air Force and extremely sophisticated integrated ground based, highly mobile air defense system isn't in the fight. They simply don't show up.

 

In the business, this is called "near peer" warfare, and to be successful, you have to bring every capability you have, and they have to be in place and ready.

To simply disregard the other side's capability is pure irrationality.

 

I've got a better idea, equally realistic.

Why not just rope drop Seal Team Six into the Kremlin and have them get Putin and his supporters?

 

By the way, there is no way the US would have a carrier in the Black Sea if hostilities broke out against Russia.

There is simply not enough room to do what carriers do.

 

 

[Coffeesforclosers]

2 hours ago, ALF said:

Ukraine should agree to stay neutral and not join NATO if Russia will leave now. It's not worth fighting over the 2 provinces that are mainly Russian speaking. Putin is ruthless at this point. 

 

I think that's what Ukraine's president has been trying to do that until Putin told the world he's a maniac that wants to reconquer the old Tsarist/Soviet empire. 

 

The Ukrainians bent over backwards to avoid provocations.  I think the Ukrainians were willing to make very, very painful concessions to Russia if it meant they kept some kind of independent state.  They'd figured there was still a way to buy Putin off and avoid a conventional war they're bound to lose.  For a stand up comedian with no military training and no political experience, Volodimyr Zelensky has brass balls.

 

Ukraine officially started mobilizing its reservists last night.  So if Russia doesn't attack in the next few weeks, they'll have 180,000 additional Ukrainian soldiers to deal with.  But it also hints that the Ukrainians see their peace strategy has failed so ***** it, Ukraine's getting ready for a war that will decide if they remain an independent country or not.

Edited February 23, 2022 by Coffeesforclosers

[Tiberius]

11 minutes ago, Coffeesforclosers said:

 

I think that's what Ukraine's president has been trying to do that until Putin told the world he's a maniac that wants to reconquer the old Tsarist/Soviet empire. 

 

The Ukrainians bent over backwards to avoid provocations.  I think the Ukrainians were willing to make very, very painful concessions to Russia if it meant they kept some kind of independent state.  They'd figured there was still a way to buy Putin off and avoid a conventional war they're bound to lose.  For a stand up comedian with no military training and no political experience, Volodimyr Zelensky has brass balls.

 

Ukraine officially started mobilizing its reservists last night.  So if Russia doesn't attack in the next few weeks, they'll have 180,000 additional Ukrainian soldiers to deal with.  But it also hints that the Ukrainians see their peace strategy has failed so ***** it, Ukraine's getting ready for a war that will decide if they remain an independent country or not.

I wonder if they have enough weapons for all those reservists? 

[Westside]

3 hours ago, Tiberius said:

Not wanting to help Ukraine helps Putin, right? 

How bad is Putin, in your opinion? 

Why don’t you knock that crap off! No one is a fan of Putin! You know damn well that’s true. So stop the bull#### accusations against anyone who disagrees with you.

Be better!

[Demongyz]

5 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

I wonder if they have enough weapons for all those reservists? 

It's hard to say.  This is another good reason to have the 2nd amendment so the citizenry can fight back!  But you know...

 

I really hope they have enough firepower to thoroughly punish Russia for this aggression, that POS Putin needs to learn a lesson.