Critical Race Theory

[716er]

6 hours ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

Barely Marxist lol.. critical theory was devised by Marx disciples almost 100 years ago in nazi Germany.  It’s proud of its Marxist root and your insulting it to say it doesn’t go far enough.  

 

But  I think I’m fine with carving the country into two countries, at this point..  a Marxist one and a capitalist one. People can uproot to live in the one they want. It should be easier on the Marxist side to relocate there since no person should own property anyway. Let’s see which new nation succeeds….  

Nazi Germany? 
 

Frankfort School was developed in the Weimar Republic and they relocated to Geneva in the early 30s because of the threat of Nazism.

 

Also inspired more by Kant and Freud than Marx.

 

[Chef Jim]

10 hours ago, BillStime said:

 

Thanks Jim... how long has CRT been around?

 

You know the answer. So what’s your point?  

[BillStime]

3 minutes ago, Chef Jim said:

You know the answer. So what’s your point?  

lmao - Jim I don’t care where you stand politically I can’t help but like you 

[Chef Jim]

Just now, BillStime said:

lmao - Jim I don’t care where you stand politically I can’t help but like you 

So you have not point?  Got it.  Unfortunately you’ve not addressed mine. I wonder why?  

[BillStime]

10 minutes ago, Chef Jim said:

So you have not point?  Got it.  Unfortunately you’ve not addressed mine. I wonder why?  

 

Oh, yes, I have a point. All of a sudden, after all 40+ years - can you tell me why Trump, Fox News and the Heritage Foundation is up in arms up CRT?

 

And do you realize you are nothing more than a pawn for these right win actors?

 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

 

 

2 hours ago, 716er said:

Nazi Germany? 
 

Frankfort School was developed in the Weimar Republic and they relocated to Geneva in the early 30s because of the threat of Nazism.

 

Also inspired more by Kant and Freud than Marx.

 

Exactly, born in the same cradle… that was the point. I’m convinced the relocation had more to do with the socialist takeover not manifesting in the utopia they were selling.  idealists not rooted in reality… 

 

but if you subscribe to it, let me know when you are donating everything you own. 

Edited June 18, 2021 by Over 29 years of fanhood

[SoCal Deek]

50 minutes ago, BillStime said:

 

Oh, yes, I have a point. All of a sudden, after all 40+ years - can you tell me why Trump, Fox News and the Heritage Foundation is up in arms up CRT?

 

And do you realize you are nothing more than a pawn for these right win actors?

 

Better than a pawn of socialists.

[716er]

10 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

 

 

Exactly, born in the same cradle… that was the point. I’m convinced the relocation had more to do with the socialist takeover not manifesting in the utopia they were selling.  idealists not rooted in reality… 

 

but if you subscribe to it, let me know when you are donating everything you own. 

I’m sure you’re convinced.

 

You have moved the subject pretty far away from the pedagogy. Again - in practice from your example on page 66 - the theory that guided the teaching principals is not practiced on the pupils. 

[Capco]

12 hours ago, Chef Jim said:

Ok I’ll type slower.  
 

Do people have a concern about religion being taught in schools?  Yes!  Why?  Because they are concerned a teacher might use that to push and agenda on little Billy and they don’t want.  I get that. This is the exact same reason why people don’t want CRT taught in school. Especially seeing there is no “bible” for CRT.  Teachers can use the theory, and it is just that, a theory, to push an agenda on little Jimmy.  
 

Get it? 

 

So we shouldn't be teaching evolution and general relativity because they are theories?  

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

28 minutes ago, 716er said:

I’m sure you’re convinced.

 

You have moved the subject pretty far away from the pedagogy. Again - in practice from your example on page 66 - the theory that guided the teaching principals is not practiced on the pupils. 

The premise that math is currently taught in a racist way is utter nonsense. But I tell you this, the peddlers of this pseudo socio babble garbage are getting RIIIICH! 
 

The entire point that western math instruction isn’t inclusive to poc because it’s not culturally relatable is defeated on its face by virtue of the reality that our math and science programs are dominated by ESL Asians. 

[716er]

4 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

The premise that math is currently taught in a racist way is utter nonsense. But I tell you this, the peddlers of this pseudo socio babble garbage are getting RIIIICH! 
 

The entire point that western math instruction isn’t inclusive to poc because it’s not culturally relatable is defeated on its face by virtue of the reality that our math and science programs are dominated by ESL Asians. 

Not sure what this has to do with the lessons on page 66. Many theoretical backgrounds, including at least CRT, critical theory, and American pragmatism, would lead to the same lessons being taught to the pupil.

 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

10 minutes ago, Capco said:

 

So we shouldn't be teaching evolution and general relativity because they are theories?  

i think crt say no because those things are white supremacist notions. 

[716er]

Why does the math teacher’s theoretical framework matter if the lessons are good for the pupil and devoid of politics or race?

[Chef Jim]

7 minutes ago, Capco said:

 

So we shouldn't be teaching evolution and general relativity because they are theories?  

 

Not my point.  

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

2 minutes ago, 716er said:

Not sure what this has to do with the lessons on page 66. Many theoretical backgrounds, including at least CRT, critical theory, and American pragmatism, would lead to the same lessons being taught to the pupil.

 

For more context I suggest you look at the other 82 pages. The entire training tool Reiterates math instruction is white supremacy. 

2 minutes ago, 716er said:

Why does the math teacher’s theoretical framework matter if the lessons are good for the pupil and devoid of politics or race?

It’s white supremacy to stress correctness in math.  Agree? 

[Chef Jim]

2 minutes ago, 716er said:

Why does the math teacher’s theoretical framework matter if the lessons are good for the pupil and devoid of politics or race?

 

They don't matter.  But because CRT can (and likely will) be politicized is the reason for our concern. 

[716er]

Just now, Chef Jim said:

 

They don't matter.  But because CRT can (and likely will) be politicized is the reason for our concern. 

You’re politicizing it non stop, Jim. It’s a theory that guides teaching principals. It’s not taught in a classroom.

2 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

It’s white supremacy to stress correctness in math.  Agree? 

Agree in a CRT context. Disagree in a CT context.

[Capco]

7 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

The premise that math is currently taught in a racist way is utter nonsense. But I tell you this, the peddlers of this pseudo socio babble garbage are getting RIIIICH! 
 

The entire point that western math instruction isn’t inclusive to poc because it’s not culturally relatable is defeated on its face by virtue of the reality that our math and science programs are dominated by ESL Asians. 

 

Good morning Bill.  

 

I think this is a great point.  Going by group, Asians and Jews perform above the academic norm for whites on average afaik.  If the system is inherently rigged for the  supremacy of whites of European ancestry, then CRT advocates might be forced to come up with reasons as to why Asians and Jews would be performing better than whites.  Reasons like cheating. 

 

In other words, rather ironically CRT can open the door to anti-Semitism and anti-Asian sentiment.  

 

I happen to have serious doubts about CRT because they toss to the side many things that I hold in high regard in search of an otherwise noble objective.  

[Chef Jim]

1 minute ago, 716er said:

You’re politicizing it non stop, Jim. It’s a theory that guides teaching principals. It’s not taught in a classroom.

 

I see.  I'm a conservative and I'm politicizing it but a liberal teach will not?

 

Take a look at how a concept like BLM, which I understand and agree with, was morphed into something incredible political.  My concern is that if/when CRT is taught the same thing will happen.  If you don't think that is a possibility I can't help you. 

2 minutes ago, Capco said:

 

Good morning Bill.  

 

I think this is a great point.  Going by group, Asians and Jews perform above the academic norm for whites on average afaik.  If the system is inherently rigged for the  supremacy of whites of European ancestry, then CRT advocates might be forced to come up with reasons as to why Asians and Jews would be performing better than whites.  Reasons like cheating. 

 

In other words, rather ironically CRT can open the door to anti-Semitism and anti-Asian sentiment.  

 

I happen to have serious doubts about CRT because they toss to the side many things that I hold in high regard in search of an otherwise noble objective.  

 

Add anti-white sentiments.  Teaching this, in my mind, is using children in a social experiment.  

[Capco]

2 minutes ago, Chef Jim said:

Add anti-white sentiments.

 

Well, I think that that part is obvious.  There is no irony in the anti-white sentiments.  

 

The idea of my mentioning Asians and Jews is how it doesn't comport with the idea that whites are at the top of the hierarchy in all fields.  

 

I think it's ironic that, in search of equality for people of color, CRT opens the door to discrimination against people of color.  

[SoCal Deek]

What is it about CRT that so many of you fail to understand? This has nothing to do with what most of you are turning yourselves into pretzels to figure out. The goal here is to make the current and next generation of the white majority feel just guilty enough that they’ll vote for reparations. That’s it....done. It’s not complicated.  

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

7 minutes ago, Capco said:

 

Good morning Bill.  

 

I think this is a great point.  Going by group, Asians and Jews perform above the academic norm for whites on average afaik.  If the system is inherently rigged for the  supremacy of whites of European ancestry, then CRT advocates might be forced to come up with reasons as to why Asians and Jews would be performing better than whites.  Reasons like cheating. 

 

In other words, rather ironically CRT can open the door to anti-Semitism and anti-Asian sentiment.  

 

I happen to have serious doubts about CRT because they toss to the side many things that I hold in high regard in search of an otherwise noble objective.  

aside from some of the louder advocates who I think are motivated to get rich, I agree the nobility is in trying to address the academic disparity along demographic lines. It’s a hard factual problem. 
 

But pretending our education systems are racist is not leading to fixing anything. One of my kids elementary school promotion  this week, his class is ~30% Asian. They listed the top 20 students in the grade who had all A’s in 4th and fifth grade. They were all Asian names, half of them esl and amongst a group of 90 kids. How is it they were able to navigate the alleged white supremacy? 
 

There are undeniably subcultures at work here. Deconstructing the subcultures that lead to better results just seem so backward to me John.. instead of looking at success as oppressive, why not look at the two subcultures you just identified as stand out successes and understand how to grow other subcultures toward the same success.

 

it’s ironic to me progressive thought processes tends toward advocating regression of the whole. 

4 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

What is it about CRT that so many of you fail to understand? This has nothing to do with what most of you are turning yourselves into pretzels to figure out. The goal here is to make the current and next generation of the white majority feel just guilty enough that they’ll vote for reparations. That’s it....done. It’s not complicated.  

If there were some social contract that said then we are done with this conversation, I’d be open to it. 

[Capco]

8 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

What is it about CRT that so many of you fail to understand? This has nothing to do with what most of you are turning yourselves into pretzels to figure out. The goal here is to make the current and next generation of the white majority feel just guilty enough that they’ll vote for reparations. That’s it....done. It’s not complicated.  

 

Incredible oversimplification, tbh.  There's a history to it that has absolutely nothing to do with seeking reparations.  

 

Like, I can see why you might predict such an eventuality (i.e., reparations) and how CRT could impact that.  But to say it's intrinsic to CRT is conjecture and conspiracy.  

[Capco]

6 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

aside from some of the louder advocates who I think are motivated to get rich, I agree the nobility is in trying to address the academic disparity along demographic lines. It’s a hard factual problem. 
 

But pretending our education systems are racist is not leading to fixing anything. One of my kids elementary school promotion  this week, his class is ~30% Asian. They listed the top 20 students in the grade who had all A’s in 4th and fifth grade. They were all Asian names, half of them esl and amongst a group of 90 kids. How is it they were able to navigate the alleged white supremacy? 
 

There are undeniably subcultures at work here. Deconstructing the subcultures that lead to better results just seem so backward to me John.. instead of looking at success as oppressive, why not look at the two subcultures you just identified as stand out successes and understand how to grow other subcultures toward the same success.

 

I think you nailed it.  The reason why those groups perform at a higher level is because of culture!  Jewish and East Asian culture both place a tremendous amount of focus on academic achievement.  Jews have been discriminated against for centuries for being more successful on average because of this and other cultural reasons.  

 

But we also have to be careful about the flip side of that coin.  Some people might chalk up the academic disparity along demographic lines only to culture and forego any genuine structural issues that are holding certain groups back.  I believe fixing the problem will require a comprehensive approach, and one that does not involve deconstructing one subculture for the benefit of another.  It doesn't have to be a zero-sum game.  

 

15 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

If there were some social contract that said then we are done with this conversation, I’d be open to it. 

 

Ditto.  

[Chef Jim]

1 hour ago, Capco said:

 

Well, I think that that part is obvious.  There is no irony in the anti-white sentiments.  

 

The idea of my mentioning Asians and Jews is how it doesn't comport with the idea that whites are at the top of the hierarchy in all fields.  

 

I think it's ironic that, in search of equality for people of color, CRT opens the door to discrimination against people of color.  

 

Yeah I assumed my bringing that up wasn't necessary.  All the things you're pointing out are reasons for the concern.  Virtually no one on the left has given a compelling reason for CRT or CRT based curriculum in schools.  Thanks. 

[Chef Jim]

41 minutes ago, Capco said:

 

I think you nailed it.  The reason why those groups perform at a higher level is because of culture!  Jewish and East Asian culture both place a tremendous amount of focus on academic achievement.  Jews have been discriminated against for centuries for being more successful on average because of this and other cultural reasons.  

 

But we also have to be careful about the flip side of that coin.  Some people might chalk up the academic disparity along demographic lines only to culture and forego any genuine structural issues that are holding certain groups back.  I believe fixing the problem will require a comprehensive approach, and one that does not involve deconstructing one subculture for the benefit of another.  It doesn't have to be a zero-sum game.  

 

 

And of course the biggest cultural issue (IMP) holing blacks back is the lack of an intact family unit.  The fact that BLM is anti-nuclear family really has me scratching my head. 

57 minutes ago, Capco said:

 

Incredible oversimplification, tbh.  There's a history to it that has absolutely nothing to do with seeking reparations.  

 

Like, I can see why you might predict such an eventuality (i.e., reparations) and how CRT could impact that.  But to say it's intrinsic to CRT is conjecture and conspiracy.  

 

I think CRT has little or nothing to do with reparations.  I feel it is a noble theory that has merits however it's how it will be used to create a future social construct (if that's the right term)

[SoCal Deek]

1 hour ago, Capco said:

 

Incredible oversimplification, tbh.  There's a history to it that has absolutely nothing to do with seeking reparations.  

 

Like, I can see why you might predict such an eventuality (i.e., reparations) and how CRT could impact that.  But to say it's intrinsic to CRT is conjecture and conspiracy.  

You’re oversimplifying the concept of reparations. CRT may have a long history but so do many social philosophies. This time around it had one purpose: the fundamental transformation of America. Sound familiar? Transform to what you ask? The redistribution of wealth. 

[Capco]

26 minutes ago, Chef Jim said:

And of course the biggest cultural issue (IMO) holding blacks back is the lack of an intact family unit.  The fact that BLM is anti-nuclear family really has me scratching my head. 

 

I was thinking that too and I tend to agree.  There is almost a cultural aversion to the family unit.  Study after study after study shows how much an intact family unit has on the success of offspring.  

 

9 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

You’re oversimplifying the concept of reparations. CRT may have a long history but so do many social philosophies. This time around it had one purpose: the fundamental transformation of America. Sound familiar? Transform to what you ask? The redistribution of wealth. 

 

I'm not saying that connecting reparations to CRT at some level is right or wrong.  All I'm saying is that you're the one making these connections and jumping to these conclusions without any direct basis in fact. 

 

That makes it difficult to have a concrete discussion.  I'm not trying to be a jerk or abrasive.  There just isn't much to respond to.  

[Chef Jim]

3 minutes ago, Capco said:

 

I was thinking that too and I tend to agree.  There is almost a cultural aversion to the family unit.  Study after study after study shows how much an intact family unit has on the success of offspring.  

 

 

I'm not saying that connecting reparations to CRT at some level is right or wrong.  All I'm saying is that you're the one making these connections and jumping to these conclusions without any direct basis in fact. 

 

That makes it difficult to have a concrete discussion.  I'm not trying to be a jerk or abrasive.  There just isn't much to respond to.  

 

It's refreshing to have an adult conversation regarding these things.  

[SoCal Deek]

15 minutes ago, Capco said:

 

I was thinking that too and I tend to agree.  There is almost a cultural aversion to the family unit.  Study after study after study shows how much an intact family unit has on the success of offspring.  

 

 

I'm not saying that connecting reparations to CRT at some level is right or wrong.  All I'm saying is that you're the one making these connections and jumping to these conclusions without any direct basis in fact. 

 

That makes it difficult to have a concrete discussion.  I'm not trying to be a jerk or abrasive.  There just isn't much to respond to.  

With the greatest of respect: You’re going to be boiled before you ever knew the water was getting hot. They’re two steps ahead of you and you don’t even know it. 
 

What do you think this about? 

[Capco]

10 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

With the greatest of respect: You’re going to be boiled before you ever knew the water was getting hot. They’re two steps ahead of you and you don’t even know it. 
 

What do you think this about? 

 

With all due respect, you sound like this guy when you refer to the all-encompassing, omnipresent boogeyman otherwise known as "they":

 

[B-Man]

 

 

TO BE FAIR, THAT’S ITS GOAL: 

 

Critical race theory makes race relations worse: 43% yes, 24% no.

 

 

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/washington-secrets/critical-race-theory-makes-race-relations-worse-43-yes-24-no

 

 https://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/racism/gop_voters_suspect_critical_race_theory_will_make_u_s_race_relations_worse

[Big Blitz]

Forgot this was here!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Big Blitz]

 

[SoCal Deek]

39 minutes ago, Capco said:

 

With all due respect, you sound like this guy when you refer to the all-encompassing, omnipresent boogeyman otherwise known as "they":

 

Nope, no boogeyman assumptions here. Just a guy who knows what’s really going on with all of this. And as usual the Right will wake up and say ‘when did that all happen’? 

[Tiberius]

7 hours ago, Capco said:

 

Good morning Bill.  

 

I think this is a great point.  Going by group, Asians and Jews perform above the academic norm for whites on average afaik.  If the system is inherently rigged for the  supremacy of whites of European ancestry, then CRT advocates might be forced to come up with reasons as to why Asians and Jews would be performing better than whites.  Reasons like cheating. 

 

In other words, rather ironically CRT can open the door to anti-Semitism and anti-Asian sentiment.  

 

I happen to have serious doubts about CRT because they toss to the side many things that I hold in high regard in search of an otherwise noble objective.  

I don’t know anything at all about CRT but I do know history. Educational levels are so much about culture. I grew up in a house full of books and I did well academically. That’s not a coincidence.  Jews were not allowed to own land in Europe and over several thousand years, across different countries turned to improving their human capital. Maybe discrimination actually helped them—when they were not getting massacred—in a way in the long run. African American history is different. They were not allowed anything up until relatively recently. But they are improving, but with a culture formed under oppressive circumstances I suppose it will take more generations to change. If CRT expla8ns the difference that way, I don’t see the harm. 

[ComradeKayAdams]

8 hours ago, Capco said:

So we shouldn't be teaching evolution and general relativity because they are theories?  

 

Hi, Capco! Good to see you here again!

 

Small clarification: critical race theory shouldn’t be lumped in with theories like evolution and general relativity. The latter are essentially natural science “facts” that always pass tests of scientific inquiry within very broad domains. CRT is more of a narration that doesn’t go through the same rigorous analyses as do other ideas from the social sciences.

 

Personally, I’m not a fan of formally teaching CRT for the reason above and also because it ends up being way too divisive, and thus counterproductive, in practice. It should be enough to simply remind children in civics class that the American law and order system is often not applied equally among different races (especially regarding the drug war!), and that we should all aspire to make it so when we become adults…beginning with NOT electing a guy who helped write the 1994 Crime Law…

 

From a political strategy point of view, topics like CRT distract us from the necessary war we need to wage against neoliberalism and American imperialism. The corporate oligarchic establishment loves culture war issues like these because they help prevent the working class on both political sides (whites on the right, minorities on the left) from unifying. A politically united working class, after all, threatens their power structures. Jeff Bezos loves seeing my fellow comrades argue over our proper use of gender pronouns as he continues evading tax payments, purchasing the Fourth Estate, and forcing his Amazon warehouse peons to subsist on food stamps.

[Capco]

1 hour ago, ComradeKayAdams said:

 

Hi, Capco! Good to see you here again!

 

Small clarification: critical race theory shouldn’t be lumped in with theories like evolution and general relativity. The latter are essentially natural science “facts” that always pass tests of scientific inquiry within very broad domains. CRT is more of a narration that doesn’t go through the same rigorous analyses as do other ideas from the social sciences.

 

Personally, I’m not a fan of formally teaching CRT for the reason above and also because it ends up being way too divisive, and thus counterproductive, in practice. It should be enough to simply remind children in civics class that the American law and order system is often not applied equally among different races (especially regarding the drug war!), and that we should all aspire to make it so when we become adults…beginning with NOT electing a guy who helped write the 1994 Crime Law…

 

From a political strategy point of view, topics like CRT distract us from the necessary war we need to wage against neoliberalism and American imperialism. The corporate oligarchic establishment loves culture war issues like these because they help prevent the working class on both political sides (whites on the right, minorities on the left) from unifying. A politically united working class, after all, threatens their power structures. Jeff Bezos loves seeing my fellow comrades argue over our proper use of gender pronouns as he continues evading tax payments, purchasing the Fourth Estate, and forcing his Amazon warehouse peons to subsist on food stamps.

Well said as always, comrade Kay!

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

1 hour ago, ComradeKayAdams said:

 

Hi, Capco! Good to see you here again!

 

Small clarification: critical race theory shouldn’t be lumped in with theories like evolution and general relativity. The latter are essentially natural science “facts” that always pass tests of scientific inquiry within very broad domains. CRT is more of a narration that doesn’t go through the same rigorous analyses as do other ideas from the social sciences.

 

Personally, I’m not a fan of formally teaching CRT for the reason above and also because it ends up being way too divisive, and thus counterproductive, in practice. It should be enough to simply remind children in civics class that the American law and order system is often not applied equally among different races (especially regarding the drug war!), and that we should all aspire to make it so when we become adults…beginning with NOT electing a guy who helped write the 1994 Crime Law…

 

From a political strategy point of view, topics like CRT distract us from the necessary war we need to wage against neoliberalism and American imperialism. The corporate oligarchic establishment loves culture war issues like these because they help prevent the working class on both political sides (whites on the right, minorities on the left) from unifying. A politically united working class, after all, threatens their power structures. Jeff Bezos loves seeing my fellow comrades argue over our proper use of gender pronouns as he continues evading tax payments, purchasing the Fourth Estate, and forcing his Amazon warehouse peons to subsist on food stamps.

Solid post

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

2 hours ago, Tiberius said:

I don’t know anything at all about CRT but I do know history. Educational levels are so much about culture. I grew up in a house full of books and I did well academically. That’s not a coincidence.  Jews were not allowed to own land in Europe and over several thousand years, across different countries turned to improving their human capital. Maybe discrimination actually helped them—when they were not getting massacred—in a way in the long run. African American history is different. They were not allowed anything up until relatively recently. But they are improving, but with a culture formed under oppressive circumstances I suppose it will take more generations to change. If CRT expla8ns the difference that way, I don’t see the harm. 

the problem is it doesn’t. The average black household was more successful in the 60s than now. CRT is a very loud over politicized RED HERRING attempted explanation. And worse, it just going to waste more time in the wrong vector.

 

kids are genetically wired to have a mom and dad. Now in today’s world, I don’t think it matters if that mom or dad is lgbtq, or both, but two parents running a household are a multiplier for success IRRESPECTIVE OF RACE!!  

Edited June 19, 2021 by Over 29 years of fanhood