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On 11/25/2020 at 10:03 AM, BITE ME said:

 

MLB and NBA ratings were in decline before Covid.  Now they are just cratering  The NFL is doing fine. Barely down 6 percent this year. It is a juggernaut.

 

MLB and the NBA have problems.  One is basically and old white person's sport. The other a young black person's sport.  Recipes for disaster. MLB has lost virtually all of it's young viewers and most of it's African American viewers.  Basketball is hemorrhaging  it's white viewers across all ages and Hispanics and Asians in the US have no real interest.


Soccer is growing and will continue to grow.  It has the perfect demographics for the future.
 

Data does not lie. Baseball and Basketball have to either grow overseas or they are heading towards hockey numbers.

 

The NBA's is not a young black person's sport it is mostly a younger person's sport in 2020, 45% of the NBA's audience was white unchanged from 2019 and in line with the overall trend. The issue for the NBA's ratings decline is complicated. First off their vastly younger audience is less likely to watch games on traditional TV as many people under 40 are cord cutters, secondly the pandemic impacted a lot of TV ratings but sports especially since people couldn't go to bars to watch games and apparently Neilson counts that as part of the ratings somehow. In addition the lack of fans and the bubble playing at an odd time of year was really not good. for the product.  

 

The NBA's ratings are recovering this year up 8% adjusted and growing. The NBA's issue is that their younger audience doesn't watch traditional TV. The social justice stuff might have had a small impact but I think their larger issue is how their audience consumes games. The NBA on the other hand has tremendous popularity internationally which is unmatched by any North American sport. Basketball is popular in China, Europe, Brazil and several other key markets worldwide. Whereas the NFL has inroads in Mexico and the UK but that's it. Despite outreach efforts in Europe and other areas the NFL is so limited to its insane popularity in the USA as its main source of revenue. While I don't see the NFL's popularity in the USA going anywhere short term all it takes is one less generation less interested in the US for that sport to decline massive popularity. Whereas the NBA and MLB (to a lesser extent as they are popular in Latin America, the Caribbean, Japan and South Korea) have other markets they can expand into. 

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The ultimate flaw of basketball, which I consider to be an otherwise beautiful game, is that intentionally committing fouls is a major strategy at the end of almost every close game.

Not to mention the final minute of a basketball game takes like two hours.

can you imagine? Amortization of signing bonuses is like rocket surgery here.

On 2/19/2021 at 12:33 AM, Buftex said:

I am an unapologetic NBA fan...but I am sort of with you on this.  What the Warriors did was amazing...but it lead to a lot of really horrible basketball in recent seasons.  Nobdy is afraid to take a 3 point shot anymore...and guys who are good shooters in general, just take bad shots too often.  I have seen my teams leading games comfortably, when all they have to do is take what the defense gives them (2ptrs.) and play a modicum of defense.  Instead, they start jacking up rediculous 3 point shots, missing them, and letting the other team back in the game.  It is incredibly frustrating to watch.  I know, old guy...I still enjoy the game, but i liked it so much more when each team had one or two "snipers" in their lineup. and 3 point shots were exciting.  Great, you made 5 threes in a row...but what about the 8 in a row you missed before that?


I love watching Steph Curry and the Warriors because they usually play with a lot of movement.  It’s beautiful basketball like the Larry Bird Celtics.

 

My pet peeve though is when a player drives to the basket, has an easy layup or dunk, but passes the ball into the corner for another player to shoot a three.

 

Mike D’Antoni’s philosophy was ridiculous with Houston.  Players were not allowed to shoot mid-range shots.  It was either layups or threes.  Then, you had Harden dribbling the ball for most of the shot clock before shooting or passing it.

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1 hour ago, ColeB said:


I love watching Steph Curry and the Warriors because they usually play with a lot of movement.  It’s beautiful basketball like the Larry Bird Celtics.

 

My pet peeve though is when a player drives to the basket, has an easy layup or dunk, but passes the ball into the corner for another player to shoot a three.

 

Mike D’Antoni’s philosophy was ridiculous with Houston.  Players were not allowed to shoot mid-range shots.  It was either layups or threes.  Then, you had Harden dribbling the ball for most of the shot clock before shooting or passing it.

The game is a mess. You have four players standing out at the three point line (sometimes all five) throwing the ball as fast as they can trying to beat the defense to the spot and then somebody chucks up a prayer. There’s of course nobody underneath for an offensive rebound so the defense just stands there letting it fall in their lap and everyone trots down to the other end to do the exact same thing....rinse and repeat for 47 minutes until the excruciating free throw and time out fest takes up an hour of airtime. 

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On 2/18/2021 at 1:09 PM, Call_Of_Ktulu said:

Basketball in the 80s - 00 was fun to watch but now it is unwatchable. I’m glad Buffalo just has my two favorite sports, NFL and NHL. For Baseball I root for the Cubs and Blue Jays but it’s hard to watch a full baseball game. Soccer is only growing on me because my son plays it and I’ve been getting into it recently. I only watch Tennis to see how Jesica Pegula is doing. 

 

College basketball is even worse these days it seems.  At least NBA players can shoot much better, while certainly not great, but much better than most in college.  One and done's makes it hard for teams to develop unless you are Duke or UK and can sign the absolute best every year.  Even then, it makes the team real good, but not very often good enough to win it all, they usually stumble along the way.  With March Madness format, all it takes is one bad night.  Duke won the one season but a big contributor was the one kid who stayed all 4 years that everyone hated, believe his name was Grayson?  Then the other thing in basketball is the stoppages to review who touched it last or to correct the time.  Ten minutes later they add two tenths of a second into the clock.

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On 11/25/2020 at 2:54 AM, JoPoy88 said:

“Stalling the game” is not the purpose of the tactic, it’s a consequence. The purpose is to gain possession back as soon as possible. 

 

Yeah I don't see how the above posters don't understand this strategy.  If you are behind, you need to get the ball back without the other scoring with the clock running.  This is the best way to do it, barring forcing turnovers, which is far more difficult.

1 hour ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

 

College basketball is even worse these days it seems.  At least NBA players can shoot much better, while certainly not great, but much better than most in college.  One and done's makes it hard for teams to develop unless you are Duke or UK and can sign the absolute best every year.  Even then, it makes the team real good, but not very often good enough to win it all, they usually stumble along the way.  With March Madness format, all it takes is one bad night.  Duke won the one season but a big contributor was the one kid who stayed all 4 years that everyone hated, believe his name was Grayson?  Then the other thing in basketball is the stoppages to review who touched it last or to correct the time.  Ten minutes later they add two tenths of a second into the clock.

 

This is true, the skill level in most games is pretty rough.  Endless 50-48 wins or blowouts.

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On 11/24/2020 at 11:40 PM, RiotAct said:

Not to mention the final minute of a basketball game takes like two hours.

 

Still?

 

I wouldn't know. Haven't watched in 2.5 decades.

 

I remember when that issue was the worst thing about the NBA.

 

It is absolutely unwatchable.

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The last NBA game I attended was in November 2019 before Covid.  My nephew has season tickets to the Warriors & I was out there for Thanksgiving.  In SF the season ticket holders have their own team representative.  When there are empty seats in the front they will upgrade the season ticket holders so that there aren't empty seats on the TV broadcast.  That night they were playing the Chicago Bulls, not a very big draw.  My nephew told his representative that he was with his uncle from NY & asked for an upgrade.  We ended up in one of the owners' seats in the front row.  The other owner sat next to my nephew & they were talking throughout the game.  Now the seats we were in are not affordable without the upgrade. I think the asking price is 5 grand per game.  That's another problem with the NBA, it's too expensive.  Back in the days I was going to Braves games I would buy tickets for a few $ and then move into the golds at the Aud.  A lot of times there were promotions like Bells, Arco, Loblaws nights, etc.  When I was 18 I looked about 14 or 15 so I would go into the promotion place like Bells & tell them I was 14 & would get tickets for $1 or $2.  One time in Fredonia the clerk figured out I was a college student because I sounded like I was from downstate rather than WNY & asked me for my license, but I was too good at it & said "I'm 14, I don't have a license".  I ended up with the ticket.  

 

 76972159_10221324972982280_3278034471848

8 minutes ago, Albany,n.y. said:

One of the advantages of those seats is you get a free buffet.  You can bring the food back to your seat so you never have to use the concessions.  Just load up on food & drink before the game & at halftime.  

 

Edited by Albany,n.y.
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6 hours ago, ColeB said:


I love watching Steph Curry and the Warriors because they usually play with a lot of movement.  It’s beautiful basketball like the Larry Bird Celtics.

 

My pet peeve though is when a player drives to the basket, has an easy layup or dunk, but passes the ball into the corner for another player to shoot a three.

 

Mike D’Antoni’s philosophy was ridiculous with Houston.  Players were not allowed to shoot mid-range shots.  It was either layups or threes.  Then, you had Harden dribbling the ball for most of the shot clock before shooting or passing it.

Exactly this.  

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3 hours ago, Albany,n.y. said:

The last NBA game I attended was in November 2019 before Covid.  My nephew has season tickets to the Warriors & I was out there for Thanksgiving.  In SF the season ticket holders have their own team representative.  When there are empty seats in the front they will upgrade the season ticket holders so that there aren't empty seats on the TV broadcast.  That night they were playing the Chicago Bulls, not a very big draw.  My nephew told his representative that he was with his uncle from NY & asked for an upgrade.  We ended up in one of the owners' seats in the front row.  The other owner sat next to my nephew & they were talking throughout the game.  Now the seats we were in are not affordable without the upgrade. I think the asking price is 5 grand per game.  That's another problem with the NBA, it's too expensive.  Back in the days I was going to Braves games I would buy tickets for a few $ and then move into the golds at the Aud.  A lot of times there were promotions like Bells, Arco, Loblaws nights, etc.  When I was 18 I looked about 14 or 15 so I would go into the promotion place like Bells & tell them I was 14 & would get tickets for $1 or $2.  One time in Fredonia the clerk figured out I was a college student because I sounded like I was from downstate rather than WNY & asked me for my license, but I was too good at it & said "I'm 14, I don't have a license".  I ended up with the ticket.  

 

 76972159_10221324972982280_3278034471848

 

 

 

Pretty sweet!!

 

I take my son to 2-3 Knicks games a year and even though they suck, they fill the Garden.  Midcourt 1st 5 rows in the 200 section are still 250+ per.   It's crazy.

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I sat in a luxury box a year ago for a weeknight Lakers game. The luxury box food was decent, but the game was a total yawner. It took longer to drive to Staples, park, and drive home than the game itself. Checked it off my box of things I hadn't done. Very little interest in going to another game....which is a bit odd since I didn't even have to pay for it.

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11 hours ago, ColeB said:


I love watching Steph Curry and the Warriors because they usually play with a lot of movement.  It’s beautiful basketball like the Larry Bird Celtics.

 

My pet peeve though is when a player drives to the basket, has an easy layup or dunk, but passes the ball into the corner for another player to shoot a three.

 

Mike D’Antoni’s philosophy was ridiculous with Houston.  Players were not allowed to shoot mid-range shots.  It was either layups or threes.  Then, you had Harden dribbling the ball for most of the shot clock before shooting or passing it.

Juist watched the Celtics/Pelicans game...it was a brutal example of what you are talking about...Celtics totally collapse in a game they had well in hand, because of "hero ball".  There wasn't a place in Louisanna that Kemba didnt think he could hit a shot from.  Just terrible.

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6 hours ago, Albany,n.y. said:

The last NBA game I attended was in November 2019 before Covid.  My nephew has season tickets to the Warriors & I was out there for Thanksgiving.  In SF the season ticket holders have their own team representative.  When there are empty seats in the front they will upgrade the season ticket holders so that there aren't empty seats on the TV broadcast.  That night they were playing the Chicago Bulls, not a very big draw.  My nephew told his representative that he was with his uncle from NY & asked for an upgrade.  We ended up in one of the owners' seats in the front row.  The other owner sat next to my nephew & they were talking throughout the game.  Now the seats we were in are not affordable without the upgrade. I think the asking price is 5 grand per game.  That's another problem with the NBA, it's too expensive.  Back in the days I was going to Braves games I would buy tickets for a few $ and then move into the golds at the Aud.  A lot of times there were promotions like Bells, Arco, Loblaws nights, etc.  When I was 18 I looked about 14 or 15 so I would go into the promotion place like Bells & tell them I was 14 & would get tickets for $1 or $2.  One time in Fredonia the clerk figured out I was a college student because I sounded like I was from downstate rather than WNY & asked me for my license, but I was too good at it & said "I'm 14, I don't have a license".  I ended up with the ticket.  

 

 76972159_10221324972982280_3278034471848

 

That’s awesome.  It’s such a different experience sitting on the floor. I got lucky enough to be on the floor for game 5 of the 2017 finals, KDs first title.  That’s me, grey shirt and khaki shorts, standing to the right of the blonde (my wife) standing court side.  Crazy experience with all the media and cameras pregame.  We went to the little buffet room and noshed on some chicken fingers then went to the bmw club (iirc) and had a scotch standing next to aaron rodgers.  I have him a nod and said it’s a pleasure to meet you.  He obliged with a smile and winked to my wife.  She woulda left me in a heartbeat that day.  😊
 

https://www.instagram.com/p/BVQi_wClCnW/

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9 hours ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

 

College basketball is even worse these days it seems.  At least NBA players can shoot much better, while certainly not great, but much better than most in college.  One and done's makes it hard for teams to develop unless you are Duke or UK and can sign the absolute best every year.  Even then, it makes the team real good, but not very often good enough to win it all, they usually stumble along the way.  With March Madness format, all it takes is one bad night.  Duke won the one season but a big contributor was the one kid who stayed all 4 years that everyone hated, believe his name was Grayson?  Then the other thing in basketball is the stoppages to review who touched it last or to correct the time.  Ten minutes later they add two tenths of a second into the clock.

 

 

College basketball is actually great at the top this year.    Gonzaga, Baylor and Michigan do it all and aren't all a bunch of one and dones.    

 

IMO, lotta', lazy bad takes on hoops in this thread to be honest.   On it's own merit it's the most entertaining and athletically impressive of the 4 major north american created sports.

 

Also MLB is absolutely stacked with talent and youth enrollment in the sport was skyrocketing for 5 years pre-pandemic so the "dying sport" or "old man" sport narrative on baseball in this thread is not true.     It's the only sport that can be played everyday and has a huge advantage in the sports entertainment world because of that, even though there isn't anything resembling parity.

 

I love the intricacies of football but parity is what makes the NFL compelling to the average viewer(and gambler).   It couldn't survive playing only 8-10 home games per year if there was a perception that the league was stacked against all but a few big markets like MLB and NBA.   If the NFL ever catches on more globally it will be because of it's unique parity/partnership between teams.........not the sport itself.

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2 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

I sat in a luxury box a year ago for a weeknight Lakers game. The luxury box food was decent, but the game was a total yawner. It took longer to drive to Staples, park, and drive home than the game itself. Checked it off my box of things I hadn't done. Very little interest in going to another game....which is a bit odd since I didn't even have to pay for it.

I envy you getting the box seats.......the only lakers games I have attended were in the nose bleeds.  So far away from the action.

 

I did get a chance to talk to Bill Goldberg (pro wrestler at the time) as for some reason he was walking through my section so at least that was cool.

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15 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

College basketball is actually great at the top this year.    Gonzaga, Baylor and Michigan do it all and aren't all a bunch of one and dones.    

 

IMO, lotta', lazy bad takes on hoops in this thread to be honest.   On it's own merit it's the most entertaining and athletically impressive of the 4 major north american created sports.

 

Also MLB is absolutely stacked with talent and youth enrollment in the sport was skyrocketing for 5 years pre-pandemic so the "dying sport" or "old man" sport narrative on baseball in this thread is not true.     It's the only sport that can be played everyday and has a huge advantage in the sports entertainment world because of that, even though there isn't anything resembling parity.

 

I love the intricacies of football but parity is what makes the NFL compelling to the average viewer(and gambler).   It couldn't survive playing only 8-10 home games per year if there was a perception that the league was stacked against all but a few big markets like MLB and NBA.   If the NFL ever catches on more globally it will be because of it's unique parity/partnership between teams.........not the sport itself.

I think the NFL is uniquely watchable and tailored for spectatorship. It has a strategy system that is at once more complex--with a lot of variation too--than other sports yet ironically more immediately decipherable to the average television-watching fan. It is also visually more compelling in that speed really does matter a lot given the size of the field (compare it to a basketball court). Like baseball, the scoring in the goldilocks zone too - a 28-24 game is effectively a 4-3.5 game. 

 

Hockey is mostly unwatchable to me despite the fact that I watched a lot of it growing up. I simply can't follow the puck well on television, and have to always rely on the replay. That's always been the sport's problem despite the fact that the scoring is close to ideal (soccer is the opposite; a 2-score lead is basically insurmountable).

 

I am a huge baseball fan, but I find it hard to watch teams that I don't have a rooting interest in. It's not that it's boring (although I understand why some feel that way); it's that the games are far, far too long, and the league has refused to do anything about it until recently. The parade of relievers was the equivalent of the free-throw fest in the NBA.

The NBA has so many problems I don't know where to begin. Let's start with home court advantage though -- the home team has the greatest advantage in all of the four major sports, yet given that the court dimensions and weather are the same everywhere, you'd think it'd be the opposite. The reason? NBA reffing. Everyone complains about refs/umps in every sport, but in the NBA it is absolutely merited. Also, the star system that the refs enforce is a joke--it is FAR worse than it is in any other sport. 

 

Secondly, and this is just me, but goals are WAY too cheap. A typical NBA game is essentially something like 51-46. That is, each side is basically scoring close to 50 goals. That's why people say that you really only need to watch the last five minutes of a game; it's not as if you're missing a bunch of great-but-rare scoring plays. Finally, the foul shot marathons at the ends of every game plus the seemingly countless number of timeouts that coaches have really ruin it as entertainment. Compare it to football, where the final two minutes are either awesome entertainment or a thankfully quick euthanization of the opponent via a clock rundown.  My favorite sport to play growing up was basketball, and it's not like I hate the sport. I just think it's lousy entertainment. I don't know what they can do to fix it. One option is going back to the old 3-to-make-2 foul shot rule they had in the late 70s but only putting it into effect for the final two minutes. Ultimately, penalties in the NBA result in a lot of plays that aren't actually basketball plays: open set shots from the free throw line. Committing penalties in other sports like hockey or football is never intended to shift the game from an action-oriented sports activity to something that is akin to playing darts. The incessant shifting from sports to non-sports activities in what are supposed to be a basketball game's climactic moments is just bad game design. 

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2 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

I think the NFL is uniquely watchable and tailored for spectatorship. It has a strategy system that is at once more complex--with a lot of variation too--than other sports yet ironically more immediately decipherable to the average television-watching fan. It is also visually more compelling in that speed really does matter a lot given the size of the field (compare it to a basketball court). Like baseball, the scoring in the goldilocks zone too - a 28-24 game is effectively a 4-3.5 game. 

 

Hockey is mostly unwatchable to me despite the fact that I watched a lot of it growing up. I simply can't follow the puck well on television, and have to always rely on the replay. That's always been the sport's problem despite the fact that the scoring is close to ideal (soccer is the opposite; a 2-score lead is basically insurmountable).

 

I am a huge baseball fan, but I find it hard to watch teams that I don't have a rooting interest in. It's not that it's boring (although I understand why some feel that way); it's that the games are far, far too long, and the league has refused to do anything about it until recently. The parade of relievers was the equivalent of the free-throw fest in the NBA.

The NBA has so many problems I don't know where to begin. Let's start with home court advantage though -- the home team has the greatest advantage in all of the four major sports, yet given that the court dimensions and weather are the same everywhere, you'd think it'd be the opposite. The reason? NBA reffing. Everyone complains about refs/umps in every sport, but in the NBA it is absolutely merited. Also, the star system that the refs enforce is a joke--it is FAR worse than it is in any other sport. 

 

Secondly, and this is just me, but goals are WAY too cheap. A typical NBA game is essentially something like 51-46. That is, each side is basically scoring close to 50 goals. That's why people say that you really only need to watch the last five minutes of a game; it's not as if you're missing a bunch of great-but-rare scoring plays. Finally, the foul shot marathons at the ends of every game plus the seemingly countless number of timeouts that coaches have really ruin it as entertainment. Compare it to football, where the final two minutes are either awesome entertainment or a thankfully quick euthanization of the opponent via a clock rundown.  My favorite sport to play growing up was basketball, and it's not like I hate the sport. I just think it's lousy entertainment. I don't know what they can do to fix it. One option is going back to the old 3-to-make-2 foul shot rule they had in the late 70s but only putting it into effect for the final two minutes. Ultimately, penalties in the NBA result in a lot of plays that aren't actually basketball plays: open set shots from the free throw line. Committing penalties in other sports like hockey or football is never intended to shift the game from an action-oriented sports activity to something that is akin to playing darts. The incessant shifting from sports to non-sports activities in what are supposed to be a basketball game's climactic moments is just bad game design. 

 

 

I think that a higher % of NFL fans aren't fans of the game itself than is the case in other sports.   We see that here with so many fans with zero interest in college ball or even other NFL teams.  People who are just ball watchers in a very complex game but care so much about it that they will find places online to discuss the team.   It's about communitas much more than the other sports.   

 

Comparing action in sports.........you get like 12 minutes of actual "action" in an NFL game........2 hours and 48 minutes of non-sports activities.   Basketball has much more action in a shorter window.   Hockey as well.   Baseball doesn't have a great deal of action and no clock.....but it has hundreds of plays per game.    It's impressive how the NFL has managed to turn a low-action product into such a business.........but it's growth is highly reliant on people deeming it important.   That's why it's struggled to succeed outside of the boundaries of the continent.   The NFL getting richer self fulfills its destiny..........it will succeed in other areas of the world because its seen as important not because of the sport itself.

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16 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

I think that a higher % of NFL fans aren't fans of the game itself than is the case in other sports.   We see that here with so many fans with zero interest in college ball or even other NFL teams.  People who are just ball watchers in a very complex game but care so much about it that they will find places online to discuss the team.   It's about communitas much more than the other sports.   

 

Comparing action in sports.........you get like 12 minutes of actual "action" in an NFL game........2 hours and 48 minutes of non-sports activities.   Basketball has much more action in a shorter window.   Hockey as well.   Baseball doesn't have a great deal of action and no clock.....but it has hundreds of plays per game.    It's impressive how the NFL has managed to turn a low-action product into such a business.........but it's growth is highly reliant on people deeming it important.   That's why it's struggled to succeed outside of the boundaries of the continent.   The NFL getting richer self fulfills its destiny..........it will succeed in other areas of the world because its seen as important not because of the sport itself.

I wouldn't confuse action with a lot of what happens in a basketball, hockey, or soccer game. A lot of what you see is time-serving while gearing up for a run of some sort and which is usually a set-piece design. It's not so different from players running back to the huddle and doing motion before a play, diagnosing a defense, or faking blitzes. Anyway, football is a short-burst sport in which players pretty much max out for the duration of any given play. It's also a set-piece sport; it just doesn't have a lot of free-floating, nebulous play between the bursts (i.e., soccer). That's not a criticism of these sports, really, and I respect anyone who prefers other sports to the NFL. 

 

As for your point that a higher percentage of NFL fans aren't fans of the sport, well, maybe it's because there are so goddamn many of them--largely because it's so entertaining. Non-fans of baseball/basketball/hockey simply don't watch because they find it boring for whatever reason. As you know, the NFL isn't just bigger than other sports in terms of popularity; it utterly dwarfs them.  

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