Why is this considered a "Make or Break, No Excuses" season for Josh?

[GunnerBill]

50 minutes ago, billsbackto81 said:

If you're looking for actual narrative and articles you won't find any, that's why I consider it a pass. If it's not talked about then its either accepted or overlooked. Maybe it's wrong to assume they're getting a "pass" as I'm sure they've received their fair share of negative criticism in their circles. But not to the extent Josh gets which reaches national exposure.

 

 

For Baker:

 

 

https://www.essentiallysports.com/nfl-news-put-up-or-shut-up-year-for-baker-mayfield-former-nfl-man-takes-a-shot-at-browns-quarterback/

 

https://dawgpounddaily.com/2020/07/28/2020-crucial-cleveland-browns-baker-mayfield-pro-football-focus-stresses/

 

https://www.insidehook.com/article/sports/baker-mayfield-franchise-qb-post-hype-browns

 

 

And that was literally a 30 second google search. He is getting just as much scrutiny. The world isn't hating on Josh and giving Baker a pass. Let's stop that narrative right there.

[billsbackto81]

8 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

For Baker:

 

 

https://www.essentiallysports.com/nfl-news-put-up-or-shut-up-year-for-baker-mayfield-former-nfl-man-takes-a-shot-at-browns-quarterback/

 

https://dawgpounddaily.com/2020/07/28/2020-crucial-cleveland-browns-baker-mayfield-pro-football-focus-stresses/

 

https://www.insidehook.com/article/sports/baker-mayfield-franchise-qb-post-hype-browns

 

 

And that was literally a 30 second google search. He is getting just as much scrutiny. The world isn't hating on Josh and giving Baker a pass. Let's stop that narrative right there.

You're a closet Browns fan aren't you?

 

9 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

Josh has played two seasons.  You imply he’s played three.

My bad. His 1st season was a throw away. I corrected it, thanks.

Edited August 19, 2020 by billsbackto81

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, billsbackto81 said:

You're a closet Browns fan aren't you?

 

 

Haha, not at all. I am a Bills fan but I follow the whole league not just the Bills. I read pieces about other teams and I watch their games. I like to think it gives me a proper context when I am trying to evaluate where the Bills and their players are at. I think you are right that Sam Darnold is getting less of this - which is tied to where his franchise is. But Baker and Josh are in very similar spots in many ways.

Edited August 19, 2020 by GunnerBill

[BigBuff423]

22 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Patriots was week 4. I am talking about Jets, Giants and Bengals. Yes there were the crazy 4 turnovers against the Jets week 1 but a couple of those were definitely not on Josh and there was an element of bad luck involved. What I loved about those games was he was more decisive than any other 3 game stretch in his Bills career, the ball was coming out quickly and yardage per game and completion wise it was the best three game stretch of his career. I did not like the way he played, for the most part, in the 5 games immediately after the interceptions against New England because he became increasingly tentative, was holding the ball longer, not trusting his eyes and he became too conservative as the Bills tried to lock him in a straight jacket. Cleveland was the nadir of that and his worst game of the season. After that he loosened up a bit again and he for the most part ended the season well. If we want to ever unlock the potential ceiling of Josh Allen it is to get him into that week 1-3 mode. Decisive, getting the ball out, being aggressive in his decision making and taking the responsibility for moving the offense. That is his chance to be a franchise QB. He isn't ever going to get there as a top end game manager who plays safe. Too many people equate no interceptions with good decision making. And while there is a correlation it can go too far the other way. Sometimes making the good decision is making the aggressive and risky throw. As Bill Parcells (not known as a wide open, throw it all over the field coach) once said to Phil Simms "If you're not throwing picks you're not trying." Josh wasn't born to play this game in a straight jacket. He isn't ever going to be Tom Brady or Drew Brees 2.0. He might be Brett Favre 2.0 though. The Bills have to encourage him to think and play that way IMO.

 

I agree with the possibility of the Favre-esque comparison as I've made it myself several times. That said, I think we know that he can't throw 3 (or even 2) INTs per game and expect to have the support of this coach and GM. I think keeping that edge, but improving the decision-making by even a fraction of a percentage could literally mean the difference between pushing the game to OT and losing on an INT. To me, that's where I want him to get better without losing that edge. 

 

Aside: with the benefit of hindsight, Beasley said yesterday Josh is making throws he wouldn't even attempt last year and "throwing guys open", and to the point of our discussion - IMHO - THAT is exactly where we would want him. Being decisive and taking calculated risks - just not throwing the ball into triple coverage because he believes his arm can get it done or because he doesn't see the rest of the field. JMO

[GunnerBill]

11 minutes ago, BigBuff423 said:

 

I agree with the possibility of the Favre-esque comparison as I've made it myself several times. That said, I think we know that he can't throw 3 (or even 2) INTs per game and expect to have the support of this coach and GM. I think keeping that edge, but improving the decision-making by even a fraction of a percentage could literally mean the difference between pushing the game to OT and losing on an INT. To me, that's where I want him to get better without losing that edge. 

 

Aside: with the benefit of hindsight, Beasley said yesterday Josh is making throws he wouldn't even attempt last year and "throwing guys open", and to the point of our discussion - IMHO - THAT is exactly where we would want him. Being decisive and taking calculated risks - just not throwing the ball into triple coverage because he believes his arm can get it done or because he doesn't see the rest of the field. JMO

 

Yea I agree with your second para. I know Josh had 3 interceptions in those first 3 games but only the Bengals one, where he had 3 defenders hanging off of him and should have just taken a sack instead of throwing it up for grabs, do I count as a bad and reckless decision. The two against the Jets his throws weren't the most accurate but they were not poor decisions as such and one certainly should have been caught by Beasley. Decisive and getting the ball out. That is what he showed those 3 games that I really liked. That is what I want to see more of.

[Captain Hindsight]

On 8/17/2020 at 7:32 PM, Paulus said:

Darnold is getting screwed by the Jets. 

The Jets have not put Darnold in a great place to suceed, but at some point he has to get better too.

 

His footwork is awful. He is talented enough that sometimes it doesn't matter, but when we see these crazy throws that get picked off, look at his feet. All over the place

 

His decision making is poor too. For the most pro-ready QB in the draft, he always need an excuse as to why he hasnt lived up to expectations. 

 

If JA had lost to the Bengals in the fashion Darnold did (22-6) when the bengals were 0-11 and then threw this pass in a loss to the then winless Miami dolphins, we would be watching Trevor Lawrence highlight films on repeat here

 

https://thespun.com/more/top-stories/video-sam-darnold-throws-the-dumbest-interception-of-the-season

On 8/17/2020 at 7:40 PM, Lockdown24 said:

Couldn’t disagree more OP. Darnold has immense pressure on him from fans AND media (come over to jets board and follow our beat writers on twitter, you’ll see). And he has a high school team surrounding him with a lunatic head coach. Josh Allen is, by far, in the best situation. It’s not unreasonable to expect him to deliver. It is unreasonable to expect Darnold to carry the Jets yet THAT’S EXACTLY WHAT’S EXPECTED OF HIM. 

 

I’d say it’s year 3 for these guys, they have to show, at minimum, solid growth and ability to lead a team to the playoffs consistently. That’s what’s expected. Not saying that’s a playoffs/Super Bowl mandate or bust, just saying you can’t leave this season with massive question marks about these guys.

You draft a guy in the top ten, he is going to be expected to lead the team. At some point Darnold needs to get better. He hasn't yet. 

 

https://thespun.com/more/top-stories/video-sam-darnold-throws-the-dumbest-interception-of-the-season

[Mark Vader]

21 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

Isn't that when he launched that bomb to dimarco in double coverage? 

 

Yea, he was a bit of a mess towards the end of that game. He did manage to make some good plays, but the moment seemed gigantic for him. You could see it effected his judgement. 

Having re-watched that play, as silly as it looked, DiMarco should have caught that pass. The double coverage misplayed it.

[billsfan89]

I would argue that these are make or break seasons for Mayfield, Darnold, and Josh. Lamar Jackson was the NFL MVP he has a bit more leash due to that and Watson has back to back seasons with good numbers and playoff appearances on top of a solid rookie year, he has more leash due to a proven track record over multiple seasons. 

 

It is make or break (so to speak) for Josh in the sense that he has no excuse for regression and that regression would result in him not being the sure fire starter in 2021 (most likely would bring in a vet to compete with him a kiss of death in most cases.) Josh has a solid O-line, a quality pair of young RB's, and with Diggs added a full complement of receivers. Josh is also in the third year of the same system so he has continuity and he has about two seasons worth of starting under his belt so he should have solid experience. 

 

I don't think Josh has to be in the MVP conversation to have a productive season. But at the very least he has to stay the same level in order for the organization to not lose some faith in him. I would argue that realistic progression would be for Josh to push himself into the fringe top 10 QB conversation and show better accuracy on the long ball and processing the game. Finally I would argue that for Mayfield with his complement of weapons and offensive line upgrades is just as much on the line as Josh is. Darnold has a baked in excuse of no weapons but I think he has to at the very least stay flat as the Jets did improve the O-line. 

 

Josh can't regress, he just can't, he doesn't have anything on his track record besides one season where he played like a mid-level QB on a team with a great defense. He can stay flat and I think the Bills hand him the reigns for 2021 as a true make or break but he can't take a step backwards without damaging his standing with the team.

[Mark Vader]

9 hours ago, JoPoy88 said:

ok psycho. Besides posting a tweet and then completely going off the rails, I’ll ask again: who are these people giving the other 2018 QBs “passes” as you handed them out. And further, besides the small cadre of posters here who will never like him, who is hating on Josh Allen so hard you almost pop a vessel defending him against me, who has been pleasantly surprised by the kid and have no problems with him.

 

you ended up proving my point. My only advice is root for the city and the team, not the players.

What I don't understand is this whole "Josh Allen Has No More Excuses" comment.

 

Again, who out there is making excuses for him? Makes it sound like the entire country has been making excuses for him his entire career.

 

I sure do not hear any of that.

[NoHuddleKelly12]

On 8/17/2020 at 7:40 PM, Lockdown24 said:

Couldn’t disagree more OP. Darnold has immense pressure on him from fans AND media (come over to jets board and follow our beat writers on twitter, you’ll see). And he has a high school team surrounding him with a lunatic head coach. Josh Allen is, by far, in the best situation. It’s not unreasonable to expect him to deliver. It is unreasonable to expect Darnold to carry the Jets yet THAT’S EXACTLY WHAT’S EXPECTED OF HIM. 

 

I’d say it’s year 3 for these guys, they have to show, at minimum, solid growth and ability to lead a team to the playoffs consistently. That’s what’s expected. Not saying that’s a playoffs/Super Bowl mandate or bust, just saying you can’t leave this season with massive question marks about these guys.

 

Hey! No, it's you Jets fans over there who are lunatics...or over there...maybe here?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(I promise I will stop with the Gase gifs as soon as the season starts ) 

[JoPoy88]

1 hour ago, Mark Vader said:

What I don't understand is this whole "Josh Allen Has No More Excuses" comment.

 

Again, who out there is making excuses for him? Makes it sound like the entire country has been making excuses for him his entire career.

 

I sure do not hear any of that.

@billsbackto81 has made some standard excuses for Allen in this very thread, on this very page. I wasn’t saying the excuse making is widespread, but I hear it from the same handful of Allen backers here pretty much in every thread about Allen. 

[Mark Vader]

47 minutes ago, JoPoy88 said:

@billsbackto81 has made some standard excuses for Allen in this very thread, on this very page. I wasn’t saying the excuse making is widespread, but I hear it from the same handful of Allen backers here pretty much in every thread about Allen. 

Exactly!

Yet the person who put this out there doesn't specify that.

 

If it's a Bills fan thing, so what?

 

I like Josh Allen, and I want him to be successful here, and from what I have seen, he's getting better as a player. If he makes a mistake, I will call him out on it, but as I stated before, I don't think this is a make or break year for him, but it is an important year.

 

The guy has been in the league for only 2 years, and I wasn't expecting miracles from him in that amount of time.

 

This is a big season for Allen, and he needs to show more improvement. The fair thing to do would be to see how he plays, and evaluate going forward.

[ngbills]

The Josh debate is so funny on this board. To answer the question in the most simplest way possible...every season is a make or break season in some regard for every QB outside of a Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees, etc. If he plays awful he is potentially benched, he plays average then there are going to be a lot of questions, he plays great then he is on to another year with much more faith in him. That same logic applies to tons of QB's in this league. Not sure we the board thinks its only Josh. Even Lamar Jackson who is an MVP favorite. If he plays bad he is still at the stage that they question him as the long term QB. 

[GunnerBill]

8 minutes ago, ngbills said:

The Josh debate is so funny on this board. To answer the question in the most simplest way possible...every season is a make or break season in some regard for every QB outside of a Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees, etc. If he plays awful he is potentially benched, he plays average then there are going to be a lot of questions, he plays great then he is on to another year with much more faith in him. That same logic applies to tons of QB's in this league. Not sure we the board thinks its only Josh. Even Lamar Jackson who is an MVP favorite. If he plays bad he is still at the stage that they question him as the long term QB. 

 

Lamar would have to be flat out bad for there to be questions. He can have a little regression from last year and still be the guy. If Josh regresses from 2019 he might not be the starter in 2021. 

[ngbills]

18 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Lamar would have to be flat out bad for there to be questions. He can have a little regression from last year and still be the guy. If Josh regresses from 2019 he might not be the starter in 2021. 

As it should be. Lamar should have much more leeway than Josh based on what each has done thus far in the league. Lamar can be the same guy or slightly worse because he was that good. Josh can possibly be the same guy but that would be a huge disappointment because he was not close to good enough. If he is worse then red flags go up. Same goes for ever QB in the league that is still establishing themselves.  

[JoPoy88]

12 hours ago, billsbackto81 said:

You're a closet Browns fan aren't you?

 

Easily obtainable facts don’t fit your narrative so he must be a browns fan? Of course. You could just fess up and admit you didn’t know what you were talking about in your OP, but naaahh.

[billsbackto81]

6 hours ago, JoPoy88 said:

Easily obtainable facts don’t fit your narrative so he must be a browns fan? Of course. You could just fess up and admit you didn’t know what you were talking about in your OP, but naaahh.

And apparently a sense of humor doesn't fit yours. It was a joke, Gunner seemed to get it but I guess it doesn't support your agenda of defecating on my thread.

Seriously dude what is your problem? Have you ever expressed an opinion someone didn't agree with? Over 200 responses on this thread but yours are the only ones I have to debate and in a nasty manner no less.  Some agree, some don't. Sit back, have a Flying Bison and relax will you.

Edited August 20, 2020 by billsbackto81

[Augie]

Replace “make or break” with “very telling”, and I’m on board.

 

The title is a bit too hyperbolic for my taste, but it IS a big year for these guys. Let’s hope we get to see it in it’s entirety as scheduled. 

[Mango]

12 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

For Baker:

 

 

https://www.essentiallysports.com/nfl-news-put-up-or-shut-up-year-for-baker-mayfield-former-nfl-man-takes-a-shot-at-browns-quarterback/

 

https://dawgpounddaily.com/2020/07/28/2020-crucial-cleveland-browns-baker-mayfield-pro-football-focus-stresses/

 

https://www.insidehook.com/article/sports/baker-mayfield-franchise-qb-post-hype-browns

 

 

And that was literally a 30 second google search. He is getting just as much scrutiny. The world isn't hating on Josh and giving Baker a pass. Let's stop that narrative right there.

 

They will all get criticized as they learn to mature into the league for whatever their shortcomings are. McD mentioned this today or yesterday. Something along the lines of, it happens in the league, it is fair to question, and it will be up to Josh prove people wrong. In his experience the good ones always do, Cam and McNabb. 

Baker has a history of acting kind of like a frat boy prick, so when the season goes awry, and he is continuously a douche, people are going to wonder if he can play the game with the maturity needed at a pro level. Can Baker manage football like an adult along side other men? He won't get worked on his game too much because he was very accurate in college and set the rookie record for TD's the year prior.  

 

Allen, the super raw dude with amazing measurable's and questionable accuracy struggles to get the ball out on time, or misses a receiver, or can't average more than 200 yards per game, he is going to get questioned a ton as to whether he can put it all together in year 3, especially as the Bills put together a top flight WR corp and a fresh backfield. 

Lamar has a ton of wiggle room here. He would have to be reeeaaalllllyyy bad in 2020 for the masses to start questioning him. But if he has a year or two where he struggles as a pocket passer, people will start questioning. 

Darnold. I mean, its the Jets, they are in the NYC/NJ market. Adam Gase is their HC. Gregg Williams can't get out of his own way when it comes to PR. Everything is a disaster. He will get some shrapnel, but probably will get less criticism because everybody is pointing tons of fingers at everybody else in the FO and coaching staff. 

They're all getting it in their own way. But they don't have the same historical deficiencies as Josh, they have their own, so their criticism is different.

[Stank_Nasty]

https://www.nfl.com/news/sean-mcdermott-josh-allen-bills-skepticism-understandable .... from NFL.com today. All stuff we've discussed a ton around here. Nothing ground breaking, but this statement stuck out to me. We know there are a minority of rabid fans that wont acknowledge his flaws and will make excuses for everything, but I find what i bolded in the statement to be much more rampant. Theres really not a lot of substance here. i guess i just wanted to point out that i find it slightly refreshing that a non-bills fan/reporter finally points this out. I figured I'd toss this little article in here instead of needlessly making a whole new thread for things that have been beaten to death around here.

 

On one side of the aisle sit some who believe the young quarterback can never become a legit passer, citing his inconsistent accuracy, poor downfield prowess and all-too-common mistakes. Some of those analysts, however, are blinded by their pre-draft evaluation, unwilling or unable to admit that over his first two seasons, Allen has improved, albeit incrementally. For some, Allen sucks, will always suck, and even if he won Super Bowls for a decade straight, they still wouldn't be convinced.

On the flip side are some fans who -- as fans are wont to do -- forgive every foible, find excuses for miscues and vehemently attack any who feign to offer a critique of their QB.