I'll have a beer and one potato chip

[The Poojer]

by not creating clear guidelines, that's exactly it.

 

7 minutes ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

Then basically, it's the State  creating  the loophole. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

On 7/22/2020 at 7:06 AM, Bill from NYC said:

The dead men and women in nursing homes are not recovering because nursing homes were forced by Cuomo to accept them.

 

https://www.health.ny.gov/press/releases/2020/2020-07-06_covid19_nursing_home_report.htm

"This important data-based study confirms what we saw in our own facilities and around the state --that when the virus hit our local communities, it quickly spread through asymptomatic carriers into our nursing homes, hospitals, places of worship and other congregate settings. This study highlighted a critically important fact that the overwhelming majority of hospital patients sent back into nursing homes were not only medically stable, they were no longer contagious, and that 81 percent of the nursing homes receiving COVID patients from New York's hospitals already had the virus.

 

Continuing to repeat an assertion without evidence does not make it a fact, especially in the face of contrary evidence.  Another fact: Nursing homes in other states have had hideous death-tolls, WITHOUT a mandate forcing them to take patients back.

 

I'd like to see an independent study, but I think people who continue to make that assertion that the deaths were all due to the policy, need to come up with some data to back it up.

Dead people generally don't recover, and the toll across the country in nursing homes  (without being forced to accept patients back) has been horrific.

 

 

On 7/22/2020 at 7:06 AM, Bill from NYC said:

Is there anything about Cuomo that you don't approve of, or do you worship him?

 

Stuff about Cuomo I don't approve of (though you weren't talking to me)

He played stupid politics with DiBlasio for about a week-10 days when they should have been saving lives and shutting things down.

He or his staff didn't make effective use of the temporary hospitals that were available, after they opened to covid-19 patients

His stupid poster is a "I Love Me Some Me"-berg

 

Still I'd rather be here:

 

Than here:

Which is actually here, because they can't keep up at the DOH:

 

[LeviF]

13 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I'd like to see an independent study, but I think people who continue to make that assertion that the deaths were all due to the policy, need to come up with some data to back it up.
 

 

Pretty sure the burden of "backing up" anything lies with the administration who came up with a policy that is, on its face, at the very least extremely machiavellian in its pursuit of the outcome "don't overwhelm the hospitals."

 

It's not Monday morning quarterbacking to suggest that sending sick people into a place that has a high density population of the people the sickness is most likely to kill is a questionable idea.  The justification of "hey look at this data we had exactly zero access to at the time we made the policy" really doesn't resonate with me either.

 

It's one thing to say "ok maybe that wasn't the primary reason" but for the governor's office to double down repeatedly on what was, once again, one of the most glaringly obvious examples of "possible ends justifying the means" moments in modern political history is blindingly arrogant and, unfortunately, not out of character for that administration.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/york-bars-offer-eyebrow-raising-171726052.html
 

New York Bars Offer Eyebrow-Raising $1 Menus to Meet the State’s New Food Requirement

 

 

I guess that’s old news 

[T&C]

I've heard stories of places using those horrible one dollar Marie Callender meals. Nuke it for however long, put it in a generic paper bowl... stick a spork in it and say enjoy your meal... what would you like to drink with that?

[ExiledInIllinois]

19 minutes ago, T&C said:

I've heard stories of places using those horrible one dollar Marie Callender meals. Nuke it for however long, put it in a generic paper bowl... stick a spork in it and say enjoy your meal... what would you like to drink with that?

Oh no!  You didn't just ask  this  crew  that question, did you?

 

Excuse the sideways pic, I will drink what  he's  having.   @SlimShady'sSpaceForce always  puts out the finest nectar water:

Just don't  invite @BringBackFergy & @Gugny, they drink like fish and have issues.   ? ? 

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

9 hours ago, LeviF91 said:

Pretty sure the burden of "backing up" anything lies with the administration who came up with a policy that is, on its face, at the very least extremely machiavellian in its pursuit of the outcome "don't overwhelm the hospitals."

 

Right.  So said administration came out with a study saying covid-19 infected staff, not returning covid patients, was the largest contributor to the spread of covid-19 infection in the NYS nursing homes.  Then people want to diss that off.  They're entitled, but then I think they need to back it up. 

I want to see an independent study, but the experience of other states which did not force re-admission of patients does align with that conclusion.  And frankly, if you're concerned about "data we had no access to at the time exculpates us", there was no coordinated Federal guidance on how to handle the pandemic in the first place, and what there was from the CDC recommended this policy.

 

So again - if someone doesn't like the "backing up" the NYS DOH has done and thinks the experience of other states don't align with that conclusion, they need to Stand and Deliver, not just keep on with the same-ol.

Part of the thing with a novel disease is that it's novel.  You learn what will happen in hindsight.

 

Quote

It's not Monday morning quarterbacking to suggest that sending sick people into a place that has a high density population of the people the sickness is most likely to kill is a questionable idea.  The justification of "hey look at this data we had exactly zero access to at the time we made the policy" really doesn't resonate with me either.

 

Oh, make no mistake.  It was an awful idea.  So was keeping the covid-19 people who contracted the disease in facility in the the first place.  But if they'd been sent to a quarantine hospital and died there, we'd be hearing about "death sheds", I'm sure of it.  And if the caregivers were bringing in the disease, untested and with inadequate PPE, people would still have died.

For that matter, it was an awful idea to send sick people home to isolate and recover, without enquiry as to who they lived with.   Math says that if 60% of the covid-19 deaths are in people >75 (that's me with a calculator from CDC data), and if something like 33% of overall deaths occurred in nursing homes, that means about half of the elders who have died were not in a nursing home.  Chances are pretty good, they didn't catch covid-19 from indiscriminate cheek-to-cheek salsa dancing, they caught it from a younger, working person they live with or from a caregiver.

There was a playbook on how to handle a pandemic, and we threw it out.  There are some justifications - experts thought covid-19 transmitted like flu through large droplets, and didn't understand the number of asymptomatic patients or the role of asymptomatic and presymptomatic transmission.    But by the time our epidemic was off and running, there was a bunch of data from other countries that we could have learned from, and we didn't.

 

And you still didn't address the "I'd rather be here...than here part."   The facility where my friend's dad ("Major Brother's dad) resides had 90 patients.  66 of them contracted covid-19.  Last I heard 28 of them had died, a few still in hospital.  That's 42%.  No forced return of covid-19 positive patients.  And this was actually a good outcome, 42% death rate.

 

Here in MO we have all the hideous nursing home deaths rate, without the disease containment.

 

 

 

[4merper4mer]

12 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Right.  So said administration came out with a study saying covid-19 infected staff, not returning covid patients, was the largest contributor to the spread of covid-19 infection in the NYS nursing homes.  Then people want to diss that off.  They're entitled, but then I think they need to back it up. 

I want to see an independent study, but the experience of other states which did not force re-admission of patients does align with that conclusion.  And frankly, if you're concerned about "data we had no access to at the time exculpates us", there was no coordinated Federal guidance on how to handle the pandemic in the first place, and what there was from the CDC recommended this policy.

 

So again - if someone doesn't like the "backing up" the NYS DOH has done and thinks the experience of other states don't align with that conclusion, they need to Stand and Deliver, not just keep on with the same-ol.

Part of the thing with a novel disease is that it's novel.  You learn what will happen in hindsight.

 

 

Oh, make no mistake.  It was an awful idea.  So was keeping the covid-19 people who contracted the disease in facility in the the first place.  But if they'd been sent to a quarantine hospital and died there, we'd be hearing about "death sheds", I'm sure of it.  And if the caregivers were bringing in the disease, untested and with inadequate PPE, people would still have died.

For that matter, it was an awful idea to send sick people home to isolate and recover, without enquiry as to who they lived with.   Math says that if 60% of the covid-19 deaths are in people >75 (that's me with a calculator from CDC data), and if something like 33% of overall deaths occurred in nursing homes, that means about half of the elders who have died were not in a nursing home.  Chances are pretty good, they didn't catch covid-19 from indiscriminate cheek-to-cheek salsa dancing, they caught it from a younger, working person they live with or from a caregiver.

There was a playbook on how to handle a pandemic, and we threw it out.  There are some justifications - experts thought covid-19 transmitted like flu through large droplets, and didn't understand the number of asymptomatic patients or the role of asymptomatic and presymptomatic transmission.    But by the time our epidemic was off and running, there was a bunch of data from other countries that we could have learned from, and we didn't.

 

 

 

Do you believe Cuomo when he says eating a sandwich at a bar is different from eating a potato chip at a bar too?  

 

Sending patients back into nursing homes was a very stupid idea and he has tried to spin 8 ways from Sunday as to why it wasn't.  

On July 21, 2020 at 12:11 PM, Gugny said:

 

I think it's ridiculous that they make you wait a certain period of time before allowing you to wear a vest.

The Ohio State coach got to wear one right away.  Our priorities are out of whack.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

20 minutes ago, 4merper4mer said:

Do you believe Cuomo when he says eating a sandwich at a bar is different from eating a potato chip at a bar too?  

 

I believe that Cuomo is trying to prevent a new surge in cases in NYS without just closing down bars, by trying to use food service to promote social distancing.

What do you think he should do to achieve this?

 

And if you scroll up to my post upthread with the graphs, where would you rather be as a state?  There or here?

 

 

 

[Westside]

5 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I believe that Cuomo is trying to prevent a new surge in cases in NYS without just closing down bars, by trying to use food service to promote social distancing.

What do you think he should do to achieve this?

 

And if you scroll up to my post upthread with the graphs, where would you rather be as a state?  There or here?

 

 

 

He loves making rules. That's because he doesn't have to follow them. His trip to Georgia, a covid hotspot, not wearing a mask or be quarantined for two weeks is a prime example of his arrogance. 

He's a horrible governor and a mediocre human being.

[plenzmd1]

On 7/21/2020 at 5:29 PM, Augie said:

 

I concur with you, but of course I defer to the expertise of one @plenzmd1. He has an app for that.....

Never, ever, ever a McDonalds...EVER!!!! I don't know why, but if you are going to not have paper towels at least buy some decent hand blowers. Even pre covid, hating going in McDs cause if i could not get to the TP to use to grab door handle to exit, had to use shirt or something else.Would not even use @Seasons1992  hands! No way was I grabbing that handle! PLus i now had wet hands! 

 

6 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Right.  So said administration came out with a study saying covid-19 infected staff, not returning covid patients, was the largest contributor to the spread of covid-19 infection in the NYS nursing homes.  Then people want to diss that off.  They're entitled, but then I think they need to back it up. 
 

 

 

 

https://www.propublica.org/article/andrew-cuomos-report-on-controversial-nursing-home-policy-for-covid-patients-prompts-more-controversy

 

Quote

The report is silent on a seemingly important question raised by its own data: Some 58 nursing homes did not have a single case of a sickened staff member or resident prior to the arrival of a COVID patient from the hospital. The report does not say how many, if any, residents or staffers at those homes became sick or died.

Asked by ProPublica about those 58 homes, Jonah Bruno, a spokesman for the health department, would not answer.

“They won’t address what happened when they sent COVID patients to homes with no COVID because it’s damaging to their false narrative,” said Steve McLaughlin, the Rensselaer County executive.

McLaughlin has publicly warred with Cuomo since the March 25 directive was issued. He refused to allow COVID patients into the nursing home run by the county, and the 300-bed facility has not had a single case of COVID. At Diamond Hill, a private nursing home in the county that took in four COVID patients, 18 residents died.

 

ProPublica not exactly known as a bastion of conservative thought.

 

 

 

In terms of the graphs, Florida, GA, TX, CA are look now  suspiciously like Italy, Spain, NYC, did starting in March and April. We can argue that in the Covid thread.

 

Also, I don't Cuomo would be taking near the heat he does if he was not taking victory laps and doing late night shows declaring victory and superiority  while also overseeing the highest death rate in absolute terms and per capita .... and turning everything political ...which he professes he does not do. See Cuomo killing CA right now ike he is Fl and TX and the Feds? Wonder why that is?

Edited July 24, 2020 by plenzmd1

[LeviF]

2 hours ago, plenzmd1 said:

 

In terms of the graphs, Florida, GA, TX, CA are look now  suspiciously like Italy, Spain, NYC, did starting in March and April. We can argue that in the Covid thread.

 

Also, I don't Cuomo would be taking near the heat he does if he was not taking victory laps and doing late night shows declaring victory and superiority  while also overseeing the highest death rate in absolute terms and per capita .... and turning everything political ...which he professes he does not do. See Cuomo killing CA right now ike he is Fl and TX and the Feds? Wonder why that is?

 

Not to mention backslapping in the state of Georgia sans mask.  And somehow I doubt he'll be adhering to his own 14 day quarantine rules when he gets back (which only apply if he's there more than 24 hours, I guess).

[plenzmd1]

25 minutes ago, LeviF91 said:

 

Not to mention backslapping in the state of Georgia sans mask.  And somehow I doubt he'll be adhering to his own 14 day quarantine rules when he gets back (which only apply if he's there more than 24 hours, I guess).

That 24 hour rule cracks me up. Like your body  cant contract Covid if you have only been in another state for 18 hours. Like your body has immunity for 24 hours, and then after that the immunity goes away.

 

Would it not make sense for the opposite then? Someone visiting NY for only 5 hours should not have to quarantine right?

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

I have seen/ read a number of people who said they slacked off once from wearing a mask to go out to eat and contracted the Covid. 
 

I believe most of them to be true. 
 

I say that because som people like to have 15 minutes of fame. 

[LeviF]

12 minutes ago, SlimShady'sSpaceForce said:

I have seen/ read a number of people who said they slacked off once from wearing a mask to go out to eat and contracted the Covid. 
 

I believe most of them to be true. 
 

I say that because som people like to have 15 minutes of fame. 

 

I've been out to eat a few times in "phase 4" up here.  Both the places I went to the staff were all wearing masks constantly and patrons had to wear their masks when they weren't seated at their (spaced out) table.

[plenzmd1]

1 hour ago, SlimShady'sSpaceForce said:

I have seen/ read a number of people who said they slacked off once from wearing a mask to go out to eat and contracted the Covid. 
 

I believe most of them to be true. 
 

I say that because som people like to have 15 minutes of fame. 

I don't, not at all. I do believe people went out once to a bar/party, leaning in close and talking loudly to try to hook( mis typed hood up..that too) up..and then got the Covid. Not buying one bit on restaurants. 

Edited July 24, 2020 by plenzmd1

[ExiledInIllinois]

4 minutes ago, plenzmd1 said:

I don't, not at all. I do believe people went out once to a bar/party, leaning in close and talking loudly to try to hook( mis typed hood up..that too) up..and then got the Covid. Not buying one bit on restaurants. 

Not even the restaurant bathroom? Flushing  urinals  gotta be a danger  zone.  The gift that keeps on giving!  Probably  aersolized the stuff that doesn't  get squashed  with cleaner. ??

Edited July 24, 2020 by ExiledInIllinois

[plenzmd1]

Just now, ExiledInIllinois said:

Not even the restaurant bathroom.  Flushing  urinals  gotta be a danger  zone.  The gift that keeps on giving!  Probably  aersolized the stuff that doesn't  get squashed  with cleaner. ??

cleaner now then they ever been

[ExiledInIllinois]

8 minutes ago, plenzmd1 said:

cleaner now then they ever been

Not really.  Then there is everyone talking,  eating. Mouths  flapping. 

 

My brother's  neighbor  got it at bingo.  Brought it home.  Killed her husband,  then her.

 

Church... singing  too.  Restaurants  are ground  zero.

Edited July 24, 2020 by ExiledInIllinois

[plenzmd1]

36 minutes ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

Not really.  Then there is everyone talking,  eating. Mouths  flapping. 

 

My brother's  neighbor  got it at bingo.  Brought it home.  Killed her husband,  then her.

 

Church... singing  too.  Restaurants  are ground  zero.

If you think restaurants are ground zero and Cuomo aint shuttin em down you ain't been following NYS so well..

[ExiledInIllinois]

14 minutes ago, plenzmd1 said:

If you think restaurants are ground zero and Cuomo aint shuttin em down you ain't been following NYS so well..

People are babies.  They've  been crying  since day one.

 

They also need their  booze to or the get the shakes. 

[plenzmd1]

16 minutes ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

People are babies.  They've  been crying  since day one.

 

They also need their  booze to or the get the shakes. 

I represent that remark! Saw the one Gov was declaring last call ne 10PM...fine by me! Me and my blue haired friends start drinking at 3, done by 9! Close at 10 all ya want!

[LB3]

1 hour ago, plenzmd1 said:

If you think restaurants are ground zero and Cuomo aint shuttin em down you ain't been following NYS so well..

Super spreader:

Totally safe: 

 

[Gugny]

3 hours ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

Not really.  Then there is everyone talking,  eating. Mouths  flapping. 

 

My brother's  neighbor  got it at bingo.  Brought it home.  Killed her husband,  then her.

 

Church... singing  too.  Restaurants  are ground  zero.

 

How does one determine where one catches a virus?

[ExiledInIllinois]

34 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

How does one determine where one catches a virus?

You can probably  figure it out.  Unless you live an extraordinary and busy life. 

[Gugny]

4 minutes ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

You can probably  figure it out.  Unless you live an extraordinary and busy life. 

 

I respectfully disagree that one can probably figure it out regardless of how extraordinary and busy one's life is.

[ExiledInIllinois]

Just now, Gugny said:

 

I respectfully disagree that one can probably figure it out regardless of how extraordinary and busy one's life is.

Cruise Ship?

[Gugny]

Just now, ExiledInIllinois said:

Cruise Ship?

 

That's a good example, I'd say.

 

I'm more talking about one who goes about their normal day.

[ExiledInIllinois]

 

If all you do is go shopping for groceries and play bingo.  You  most likely got it there.  This, contact tracing ain't  rocket  science 

Just now, Gugny said:

 

That's a good example, I'd say.

 

I'm more talking about one who goes about their normal day.

I work with one other guy.  I don't  see many people.  I will know where I get it.

[Gugny]

2 minutes ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

 

If all you do is go shopping for groceries and play bingo.  You  most likely got it there.  This, contact tracing ain't  rocket  science 

I work with one other guy.  I don't  see many people.  I will know where I get it.

 

You could get it from your wife or daughter, who could get it in their day to day lives.

[ExiledInIllinois]

4 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

You could get it from your wife or daughter, who could get it in their day to day lives.

Yeah... But they SHOULD show symptoms  first.

[Gugny]

8 minutes ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

Yeah... But they SHOULD show symptoms  first.

 

According to whom???

[ExiledInIllinois]

4 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

According to whom???

You really wanna  die  on this hill?  Look up the  definition of: "should."  I am making  generalizations. 

 

A little situational awareness.  Analysizing your daily habits  in a social distancing world, you  can probably  figure  out where you pick it up  and who you're  around  to spread it too.

[Gugny]

6 minutes ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

You really wanna  die  on this hill?  Look up the  definition of: "should."  I am making  generalizations. 

 

A little situational awareness.  Analysizing your daily habits  in a social distancing world, you  can probably  figure  out where you pick it up  and who you're  around  to spread it too.

 

Nah.  That's just not true.

[ExiledInIllinois]

Just now, Gugny said:

 

Nah.  That's just not true.

Maybe for you. 

 

Yes it is true Sorry I don't  walk around clueless  of the people  I come  into contact with in the social  distancing  era.

[Jauronimo]

1 hour ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

 

If all you do is go shopping for groceries and play bingo.  You  most likely got it there.  This, contact tracing ain't  rocket  science 

I work with one other guy.  I don't  see many people.  I will know where I get it.

Is he deaf?

[4merper4mer]

1 hour ago, Gugny said:

 

You could get it from your wife or daughter, who could get it in their day to day lives.

Settle down.  Wherever Cuomo says you got it, that's where you got it.  Cah Peach?

[ExiledInIllinois]

8 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

Is he deaf?

Sorta.  We are 1,000 feet apart.

1 minute ago, 4merper4mer said:

Settle down.  Wherever Cuomo says you got it, that's where you got it.  Cah Peach?

He's  in quarantine  too?

[Gugny]

7 minutes ago, 4merper4mer said:

Settle down.  Wherever Cuomo says you got it, that's where you got it.  Cah Peach?

 

It'll be a mute point when the SS invades ChiTown and @ExiledInIllinois tries to stop them with Lock keys.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

5 hours ago, plenzmd1 said:

I don't, not at all. I do believe people went out once to a bar/party, leaning in close and talking loudly to try to hook( mis typed hood up..that too) up..and then got the Covid. Not buying one bit on restaurants. 

 

I think it all depends upon the setup - how close people are and what the ventilation is like.   Restaurant transmission has been demonstrated pretty convincingly.

There is that contact tracing report from China (https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/7/20-0764_article

showing spread to 3 different parties seated at large tables in a restaurant, initially hypothesized to be droplet spread longer than usual due to the air conditioner and exhaust fan.

 

The tables are about 3 feet apart, so patients B1, C1, and C2 are  >6 feet away from index patient A1.

A later study by a mechanical engineering/HVAC that included re-creating the conditions in the restaurant and using tracer gas (very careful work) as well as reviewing CC video to exclude fomite transmission from common surface contact, concluded that aerosol particles would have infected all these people (some spaced as far as 4.6m or 14 feet apart), and that poor ventilation in that side of the restaurant allowed aerosols to accumulate and be transmitted during the 53 min (table B) and 73 min (table C) of concurrent seating.

No one else in the restaurant and no servers became ill.

The conclusion is that when indoors in a closed environment, the ventilation pattern and the amount of air exchange become very important