Botts Canned!

[Kirby Jackson]

1 hour ago, Greg S said:

 

Which drives home the point about having a strong management team run the show. The Bills were just like the Sabres a few years ago. Spinning their wheels and going nowhere. Replace the GM/HC every few years over and over again. Beane and McDermott changed the culture of the Bills. The Sabres need the same. If you judge the Pegula's on only the Bills then they are considered good owners. Judge them off the Sabres and its a different story.

Are they? Marrone, Russ, Whaley, REX AND ROB?!? They weren’t good. They got the right people there now. Add in their Sabres hires and fires and they’re batting average is extremely low. That’s my point. They need to get the right people and get the hell out of the way!!

[BillsFan4]

3 hours ago, thebug said:

Can’t Pegs just drill another well? 

I’m not 100% sure but I read that the Pegulas entire gas business is shut down, and has been for months. I guess gas prices dropped so low that it wasn’t profitable for them to even drill anymore (at least that’s what I remember reading somewhere).

 

edit - here’s one article. It says they stopped drilling months before the pandemic because of low gas prices. From a quick google search it looks like they’ve been winding down gas production since at least 2019 due to the drop in prices. 

 

https://live24x7.news/pegula-sports-and-entertainment-could-look-different-moving-forward-heres-why-the-buffalo-news/

 

it looks like every business they run is under water right now right now except for the Bills.

 

Amerks, 2 lacrosse teams, their hotels + restaurants, Sabres, PSE. 

 

 

Edited June 17, 2020 by BillsFan4

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Feels like only yesterday that I failed on the decision to have Kim Pegula as the President/CEO of PSE. At the time I claimed there were 100+ people in their organization more qualified. I’m just here to take a quick victory lap and accept any apologizes that people want to offer.

 

All joking aside, this was the expected outcome. They are over their heads as owners. I believe firing Botterill was the right decision. I believe publicly supporting him and then firing him 2 months later is idiotic. The Sabres have lost credibility with hockey leaders, players and agents. That’s not a good franchise building strategy. The best owners in sports own the teams. They don’t operate them.

The firing of Botterill was not a hockey decision. It was a financial decision. If you recall he was retained to finish the last year of his contract. The reason why he was let go was because he was not receptive to the owners' plan to dramatically strip the staffing in the organization in order to save money. As you well know the economics of football are different from the more challenging economics of hockey. In football it is nearly impossible to lose money. Even poorly managed football franchises make money. That's not the case in hockey. The Sabres were hemorrhaging money prior to the pandemic and were facing a financial meltdown during the pandemic that will be following the sport into the next season.

 

How the Pegulas have responded to this current precarious economic environment is the same way other industries such as the hotel, hospitality, airlines, retail etc have responded. The strategy is to resort to austerity for the sake of survival and viability for tomorrow.   

[Greg S]

19 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Are they? Marrone, Russ, Whaley, REX AND ROB?!? They weren’t good. They got the right people there now. Add in their Sabres hires and fires and they’re batting average is extremely low. That’s my point. They need to get the right people and get the hell out of the way!!

 

 When they took over Marrone quit because he wanted the Jets job (if I remember correctly). Whaley was already the GM. Rex was a mistake but they acted quickly to correct that. Beane is their 1st GM hire and McDermott their 2nd HC hire. I would say overall they have done a good job with the Bills so far.

[Kirby Jackson]

8 minutes ago, JohnC said:

The firing of Botterill was not a hockey decision. It was a financial decision. If you recall he was retained to finish the last year of his contract. The reason why he was let go was because he was not receptive to the owners' plan to dramatically strip the staffing in the organization in order to save money. As you well know the economics of football are different from the more challenging economics of hockey. In football it is nearly impossible to lose money. Even poorly managed football franchises make money. That's not the case in hockey. The Sabres were hemorrhaging money prior to the pandemic and were facing a financial meltdown during the pandemic that will be following the sport into the next season.

 

How the Pegulas have responded to this current precarious economic environment is the same way other industries such as the hotel, hospitality, airlines, retail etc have responded. The strategy is to resort to austerity for the sake of survival and viability for tomorrow.   

I’m sorry but I’m having a hard time with the “financial woes” of the Sabres. They paid $189M for them less than a decade ago and would get $550M+ tomorrow. The franchise value went up $25M last year alone. This isn’t like other businesses. The rarity, exclusivity and demand for sports teams by billionaires make them different. They value of the business doesn’t go up and down  like a restaurant based on sales.
 

The operating income may fluctuate some but the largest expense, player salaries, is a percentage of overall revenue. It’s not like you need to maintain the same pay without the same income. I’m not, and WILL NEVER buy into sports owners crying poor. 

5 minutes ago, Greg S said:

 

 When they took over Marrone quit because he wanted the Jets job (if I remember correctly). Whaley was already the GM. Rex was a mistake but they acted quickly to correct that. Beane is their 1st GM hire and McDermott their 2nd HC hire. I would say overall they have done a good job with the Bills so far.

They’ve owned the team for 6 years, had 3 HCs, 2 GMs, multiple presidents. They lost their top leadership on the business side almost across the board in both franchises (Russ, Wheat, Sinclair, Popko, etc..). That sort of attrition doesn’t happen in top organizations. Now it looks like they got it right with McDermott and Beane. Even a broken clock is right twice a day. They should do everything in their power to extend them and stay out of their way.

[Greg S]

5 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I’m sorry but I’m having a hard time with the “financial woes” of the Sabres. They paid $189M for them less than a decade ago and would get $550M+ tomorrow. The franchise value went up $25M last year alone. This isn’t like other businesses. The rarity, exclusivity and demand for sports teams by billionaires make them different. They value of the business doesn’t go up and down  like a restaurant based on sales.
 

The operating income may fluctuate some but the largest expense, player salaries, is a percentage of overall revenue. It’s not like you need to maintain the same pay without the same income. I’m not, and WILL NEVER buy into sports owners crying poor. 

They’ve owned the team for 6 years, had 3 HCs, 2 GMs, multiple presidents. They lost their top leadership on the business side almost across the board in both franchises (Russ, Wheat, Sinclair, Popko, etc..). That sort of attrition doesn’t happen in top organizations. Now it looks like they got it right with McDermott and Beane. Even a broken clock is right twice a day. They should do everything in their power to extend them and stay out of their way.

 

Agree 100%. If they let Beane and McDermott call the shots then I think the Bills will be a contender more often than not. Hopefully that means a championship along the way.

[plenzmd1]

54 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Are they? Marrone, Russ, Whaley, REX AND ROB?!? They weren’t good. They got the right people there now. Add in their Sabres hires and fires and they’re batting average is extremely low. That’s my point. They need to get the right people and get the hell out of the way!!

I look at it the other way...they were not afraid to buck the " continuity at all costs" idiocy ..and at least know when they made a mistake. 

 

 

[BillsfaninChicago]

Man when Darcy Regier said there would be some suffering seven years ago he wasn’t kidding...

[GG]

53 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

 

The operating income may fluctuate some but the largest expense, player salaries, is a percentage of overall revenue. It’s not like you need to maintain the same pay without the same income. I’m not, and WILL NEVER buy into sports owners crying poor. 

 

 

Never conflate the value of a franchise with cash revenues and expenses.  There have been many owners who hit a liquidity wall at the worst times for them.   It's not uncommon for small market teams that are not well run into cash losses.  The owners then turn to their reserves to meet that shortfall. 

 

It's not too far fetched to see that Pegulas are scrambling for cash now, since every business they own has been hit pretty badly and there's no visibility for a recovery.  Their cost cutting actions are similar to nearly every company that's in oil& gas, entertainment & hospitality.  A pretty toxic mix of assets in these times.

[Kirby Jackson]

21 minutes ago, GG said:

 

Never conflate the value of a franchise with cash revenues and expenses.  There have been many owners who hit a liquidity wall at the worst times for them.   It's not uncommon for small market teams that are not well run into cash losses.  The owners then turn to their reserves to meet that shortfall. 

 

It's not too far fetched to see that Pegulas are scrambling for cash now, since every business they own has been hit pretty badly and there's no visibility for a recovery.  Their cost cutting actions are similar to nearly every company that's in oil& gas, entertainment & hospitality.  A pretty toxic mix of assets in these times.

I’m not conflating franchise value with cash revenue. Just saying, the entire cost of the people that they just cut is MAYBE $2M or so. When your net worth $5.1B that’s peanuts. He made $2M yesterday (.03% of his net worth). https://www.forbes.com/profile/terrence-pegula/#13714b983cc7

Edited June 17, 2020 by Kirby Jackson

[GG]

Just now, Kirby Jackson said:

I’m not conflating franchise value with cash revenue. Just saying, the entire cost of the people that they just caught is MAYBE $2M or so. When your net worth $5.1B that’s peanuts. He made $2M yesterday (.03% of his net worth). https://www.forbes.com/profile/terrence-pegula/#13714b983cc7

 

In the process of saying you're not conflating wealth & income, you proceed to conflate wealth & income.  Exactly how did he make $2 million on his wealth yesterday?  Do you have an actual insight on his cash generating assets?  I doubt it.

 

The best example I can give is someone may own a priceless Picasso, but can't afford to keep the lights on because there's no way to charge other people to see the artwork.  So you are very asset rich, but the expenses of keeping the Picasso hung safely on the wall mean that you need to tap into your savings or look to severely cut costs of maintaining the artwork.  No too different than what Pegulas are doing now.

[Kirby Jackson]

6 minutes ago, GG said:

 

In the process of saying you're not conflating wealth & income, you proceed to conflate wealth & income.  Exactly how did he make $2 million on his wealth yesterday?  Do you have an actual insight on his cash generating assets?  I doubt it.

 

The best example I can give is someone may own a priceless Picasso, but can't afford to keep the lights on because there's no way to charge other people to see the artwork.  So you are very asset rich, but the expenses of keeping the Picasso hung safely on the wall mean that you need to tap into your savings or look to severely cut costs of maintaining the artwork.  No too different than what Pegulas are doing now.

Do you believe the Pegula’s to be cash poor?!? I’m sure not buying that.

 

To be clear, they are entitled to make whatever decisions they want. I’m just not standing for the myth that they are forced to financially. This is a decision that they WANT to make not that they HAVE make.

Edited June 17, 2020 by Kirby Jackson

[GG]

4 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Do you believe the Pegula’s to be cash poor?!? I’m sure not buying that.

 

To be clear, they are entitled to make whatever decisions they want. I’m just not standing for the myth that they are forced to financially. This is a decision that they WANT to make not that they HAVE make.

 

Based on the assets they own, I think they are running pretty big operating cash deficits since they're generating almost no revenues but are still incurring heavy fixed costs.  Their choices are to keep cutting costs, sell assets or borrow.  

[Kirby Jackson]

2 minutes ago, GG said:

 

Based on the assets they own, I think they are running pretty big operating cash deficits since they're generating almost no revenues but are still incurring heavy fixed costs.  Their choices are to keep cutting costs, sell assets or borrow.  

Again, though we are talking about a fraction of a fraction of “liquidation.” Owners crying about “tightening the belt” is just bs. That’s my point. I don’t care what decision that they make but don’t use the loss of revenue as a crutch. Cutting $2M (or whatever) on staff and infrastructure has ZERO impact on the Pegula’s lifestyle and/or financial position. 
 

FWIW, I agree that Botterill should be fired. I don’t agree with gutting everything and hiding behind the revenue not coming in. Just say, “we’ve funded a staff and system that didn’t work. We are going to go in another direction because it was a waste of money.” Owners crying poor just isn’t going to fly with me in 2020. It’s just not a real thing but it is utilized to gain empathy from the public. 

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I’m sorry but I’m having a hard time with the “financial woes” of the Sabres. They paid $189M for them less than a decade ago and would get $550M+ tomorrow. The franchise value went up $25M last year alone. This isn’t like other businesses. The rarity, exclusivity and demand for sports teams by billionaires make them different. They value of the business doesn’t go up and down  like a restaurant based on sales.
 

The operating income may fluctuate some but the largest expense, player salaries, is a percentage of overall revenue. It’s not like you need to maintain the same pay without the same income. I’m not, and WILL NEVER buy into sports owners crying poor. 

 

The value and appreciation of the Sabres are not part of the equation/calculation because the Pegulas aren't interested in selling the team. The issue is cash flow i.e. dollars in and dollars going out. They don't come close to balancing out. At least right now. What is crystal clear is that the Pegulas are losing a copious amount of money not only on the Sabres but on all their other secondary investments with the exception of the Bills. As an example the Pegulas have control of the arena which for maybe the next year or so won't hold any events. 

 

The Sabres are staying within the cap. That doesn't mean that they are not losing money. All the reports that are coming out from a variety of sources indicate that they are from a financial sense a losing venture, just as much as they are on the ice. No one is suggesting that anyone should be sympathetic to the owners. But the numbers are the numbers. The Sabres and all the other secondary investments (minus the Bills) are hemorrhaging money. That's the business reality that is driving the austerity strategy in the hockey organization. 

[BillsFan4]

 

 

Huh. I thought Botterill was in the last year of his deal. Turns out he had 2yrs left. Elliotte Friedman said the same thing.

[GG]

3 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Again, though we are talking about a fraction of a fraction of “liquidation.” Owners crying about “tightening the belt” is just bs. That’s my point. I don’t care what decision that they make but don’t use the loss of revenue as a crutch. Cutting $2M (or whatever) on staff and infrastructure has ZERO impact on the Pegula’s lifestyle and/or financial position. 
 

FWIW, I agree that Botterill should be fired. I don’t agree with gutting everything and hiding behind the revenue not coming in. Just say, “we’ve funded a staff and system that didn’t work. We are going to go in another direction because it was a waste of money.” Owners crying poor just isn’t going to fly with me in 2020. It’s just not a real thing but it is utilized to gain empathy from the public. 

 

I could care less of the optics they're trying to sell, but understand that they are probably going through a serious cash flow problem right now.  That was a major consideration in yesterday's bloodletting, but not the only one.

 

You seem to want to hold them to a different standard than other companies in the industries that they own.   Here's a snippet from Marriott's actions.  It's not too different in any of the other industries they own.  At the end of the day, they're ones who chose their investments, and now it's certainly backfired.  But that doesn't mean they don't have cash flow issues.  

 

Quote

Marriott International announced Wednesday it would be forced to furlough and layoff more employees as the ongoing coronavirus outbreak continues to ravage the hospitality industry.

 

Officials from Marriott said the viral pandemic has hurt business more than 9/11 and the 2008 financial crisis combined, forcing the company to implement additional measures to reduce costs and improve its liquidity.

...

Earlier this month, officials announced profits dropped 92 percent as it earned $31 million, or nine cents a share, through the first three months of the year compared to $375 million a year ago.

[Lurker]

18 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Do you believe the Pegula’s to be cash poor?!? I’m sure not buying that.

 

Possibly.   There are no revenue streams coming out of the Sabres right now--or for the next six months-- meaning they have to cover all costs from other sources.   If those sources are already pledged or illiquid, as the oil and gas assets would be, then they may have a liquidity crunch.     

 

The bloodletting seemed more about finances and less about hockey to me.  Which is more than a little troubling...    

[Kirby Jackson]

5 minutes ago, JohnC said:

The value and appreciation of the Sabres are not part of the equation/calculation because the Pegulas aren't interested in selling the team. The issue is cash flow i.e. dollars in and dollars going out. They don't come close to balancing out. At least right now. What is crystal clear is that the Pegulas are losing a copious amount of money not only on the Sabres but on all their other secondary investments with the exception of the Bills. As an example the Pegulas have control of the arena which for maybe the next year or so won't hold any events. 

 

The Sabres are staying within the cap. That doesn't mean that they are not losing money. All the reports that are coming out from a variety of sources indicate that they are from a financial sense a losing venture, just as much as they are on the ice. No one is suggesting that anyone should be sympathetic to the owners. But the numbers are the numbers. The Sabres and all the other secondary investments (minus the Bills) are hemorrhaging money. That's the business reality that is driving the austerity strategy in the hockey organization. 

Maybe it’s more semantical? Obviously they aren’t generating the revenue that they needed to. They are in no way “forced” to make any cuts whatsoever. If they kicked in a fraction of a fraction of their own assets they could operate at the same level. They’d never notice the difference.
 

This isn’t a small business situation. If the sandwich shop at the corner isn’t ringing $1000 a day they can’t afford to pay staff, bills, etc... If the Pegula’s and the Sabres miss 13 games, 6 of which are home, that lost revenue isn’t going to crush their business. It’s a PR spin used to get the public to empathize. It’s a BS excuse. We aren’t talking about multi-millionaires.
 

We are talking about people that stroked a $1.4B check for the Bills (who buy the way are still spitting out cash). If my math is right the NFL teams last year each made $50m-$55m PROFIT from the TV deal alone. 

 

 

14 minutes ago, GG said:

 

I could care less of the optics they're trying to sell, but understand that they are probably going through a serious cash flow problem right now.  That was a major consideration in yesterday's bloodletting, but not the only one.

 

You seem to want to hold them to a different standard than other companies in the industries that they own.   Here's a snippet from Marriott's actions.  It's not too different in any of the other industries they own.  At the end of the day, they're ones who chose their investments, and now it's certainly backfired.  But that doesn't mean they don't have cash flow issues.  

 

Profits dropping 92% is quite different than about 15% of your home games being cancelled. This holds especially true when the player salaries go away with the unplayed games. I’m fairly certain that is the model in the NHL as it is in other sports. So you lose the revenue associated with those games but also your largest expense associated with them. It’s not apples to apples.

[May Day 10]

I think its impossible to overstate the level of terrible management and self imposed turmoil the Pegulas have inflicted on this franchise over the past 9+ years.  On all fronts

 

 

 

 

But wait! There's More!

[JohnC]

2 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Maybe it’s more semantical? Obviously they aren’t generating the revenue that they needed to. They are in no way “forced” to make any cuts whatsoever. If they kicked in a fraction of a fraction of their own assets they could operate at the same level. They’d never notice the difference.
 

This isn’t a small business situation. If the sandwich shop at the corner isn’t ringing $1000 a day they can’t afford to pay staff, bills, etc... If the Pegula’s and the Sabres miss 13 games, 6 of which are home, that lost revenue isn’t going to crush their business. It’s a PR spin used to get the public to empathize. It’s a BS excuse. We aren’t talking about multi-millionaires.
 

We are talking about people that stroked a $1.4B check for the Bills (who buy the way are still spitting out cash). If my math is right the NFL teams last year each made $50m-$55m PROFIT from the TV deal alone. 

 

 

We are talking past one another. My point is simply as an individual stand alone entity the Sabres enterprise from a business standpoint is flailing. You make the point that they should kick in their own money to augment the business generated money. The problem with that approach is all their other ventures (other than the Bills) are in a flat-line status i.e. near death. 

 

You were in and around the business of sports. It's a business with cash/flow realities. Right now the in and out cash don't match. And because of the business environment affected by the pandemic issue and the implications for attendance there is going to be even more financial stress within the organization. 

[BillsFan4]

I posted this over in the Sabres thread. 2 different sources now reporting the Sabres were losing upwards of $30 million a year (Tim Graham’s sources quoted up to $60M when including PSE).

 

https://www.tsn.ca/talent/buffalo-sabres-decide-to-start-over-once-again-1.1486570

 

https://theathletic.com/1758235/2020/04/20/as-pegulas-face-business-challenges-employees-describe-a-toxic-culture-at-pse/

 

Crazy how poorly managed have they been. 

 

 

————————————————

 

 

Elliotte Friedman thinks there are big changes coming to the NHL.

 

 

 

Edited June 17, 2020 by BillsFan4

[Kirby Jackson]

14 minutes ago, JohnC said:

We are talking past one another. My point is simply as an individual stand alone entity the Sabres enterprise from a business standpoint is flailing. You make the point that they should kick in their own money to augment the business generated money. The problem with that approach is all their other ventures (other than the Bills) are in a flat-line status i.e. near death. 

 

You were in and around the business of sports. It's a business with cash/flow realities. Right now the in and out cash don't match. And because of the business environment affected by the pandemic issue and the implications for attendance there is going to be even more financial stress within the organization. 

Maybe we are. We are in agreement that the cash flow is down across the board (except the Bills). I’m simply suggesting that the cash flow issues are being overstated. You aren’t seeing other organizations skinning it to the bone. I don’t believe that’s the reason for these decisions. If they are that lean they shouldn’t own the team.

 

The reason that i brought the Bills into the equation is that their profits from the TV contract alone are more than enough to offset all other losses. They obviously don’t have to dump money into a losing entity. I’m simply saying that they could. 

9 minutes ago, BillsFan4 said:

I posted this over in the Sabres thread. 2 different sources now reporting the Sabres were losing upwards of $30 million a year (Tim Graham’s sources quoted up to $60M when including PSE).

 

https://www.tsn.ca/talent/buffalo-sabres-decide-to-start-over-once-again-1.1486570

 

https://theathletic.com/1758235/2020/04/20/as-pegulas-face-business-challenges-employees-describe-a-toxic-culture-at-pse/

 

Crazy how poorly managed have they been. 

That is pretty inept. Buying minor league franchises is a terrible investment. You just hand money away. The Sabres, in theory, should operate in the black. They aren’t going to be a huge revenue generator but it should be a positive.
 

They need to get a president in there ASAP. Too bad RB was banging his employees. He’s absolutely capable of fixing this problem. There are tons of others as well. Kim Pegula isn’t one.

Edited June 17, 2020 by Kirby Jackson

[Mike in Horseheads]

6 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

They need to get a president in there ASAP. Too bad RB was banging his employees. He’s absolutely capable of fixing this problem. There are tons of others as well. Kim Pegula isn’t one.

They had Lafontaine for three months and he was gone. (I wish the whole story would come out about that.) Looking back should have known then trouble was brewing.

[Kirby Jackson]

1 minute ago, Mike in Horseheads said:

They had Lafontaine for three months and he was gone. (I wish the whole story would come out about that.) Looking back should have known then trouble was brewing.

I’ve heard quite a bit of it from the inside. Long story short LaFontaine believed that everyone they had was incompetent (Ted Black & company). He wanted house cleaning and authority. 

[May Day 10]

4 minutes ago, Mike in Horseheads said:

They had Lafontaine for three months and he was gone. (I wish the whole story would come out about that.) Looking back should have known then trouble was brewing.

 

LaFontaine left due to bumping heads with Kim Pegula and getting overridden on silly things.  The one that broke the camel's back was her allowing Ryan Miller's wife to go on the "parents trip' after he told the Millers that it was a parent's trip, no wives.  

 

IMO, they need a couple team presidents at this point.  One for the business/branding side and one for the hockey ops side.  Would be a great opportunity to start fresh right now because they culled so many people and they may have like 6 months until the season starts.  

 

 

But they will waste it pretending they know what they are doing

Edited June 17, 2020 by May Day 10

[Mike in Horseheads]

Just now, Kirby Jackson said:

I’ve heard quite a bit of it from the inside. Long story short LaFontaine believed that everyone they had was incompetent (Ted Black & company). He wanted house cleaning and authority. 

And here we are. He was right.

...That bridge has burned but now would be the perfect time for him since thats what they just did.

[Kirby Jackson]

2 minutes ago, May Day 10 said:

 

LaFontaine left due to bumping heads with Kim Pegula and getting overridden on silly things.  The one that broke the camel's back was her allowing Ryan Miller's wife to go on the "parents trip' after he told the Millers that it was a parent's trip, no wives.  

 

IMO, they need a couple team presidents at this point.  One for the business/branding side and one for the hockey ops side.  Would be a great opportunity to start fresh right now because they culled so many people and they may have like 6 months until the season starts.  

 

 

But they will waste it pretending they know what they are doing

FWIW, Kim is DESPISED by the old-timers in and around the Sabres. At least that’s how I’ve heard it. It’s been that way since LaFontaine.

[GG]

17 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Maybe it’s more semantical? Obviously they aren’t generating the revenue that they needed to. They are in no way “forced” to make any cuts whatsoever. If they kicked in a fraction of a fraction of their own assets they could operate at the same level. They’d never notice the difference.
 

This isn’t a small business situation. If the sandwich shop at the corner isn’t ringing $1000 a day they can’t afford to pay staff, bills, etc... If the Pegula’s and the Sabres miss 13 games, 6 of which are home, that lost revenue isn’t going to crush their business. It’s a PR spin used to get the public to empathize. It’s a BS excuse. We aren’t talking about multi-millionaires.
 

We are talking about people that stroked a $1.4B check for the Bills (who buy the way are still spitting out cash). If my math is right the NFL teams last year each made $50m-$55m PROFIT from the TV deal alone. 

 

 

Profits dropping 92% is quite different than about 15% of your home games being cancelled. This holds especially true when the player salaries go away with the unplayed games. I’m fairly certain that is the model in the NHL as it is in other sports. So you lose the revenue associated with those games but also your largest expense associated with them. It’s not apples to apples.

 

You are totally ignoring the timing of the cash inflows & outflows and the impact of the overall PSE enterprise.  This is not only about the hockey operations.   The lockdown timing could not have been worse for their collection of properties. AFAIK, they are generating almost zero revenues because oil & gas is in the tank, no sports, no travel and no concerts.  Yet, the lights still need to be kept on at Keybank, Adpro, Harborside and Nashville and they need to spend a lot more to get the facilities ready for the NFL season under the virus protocols.  They're also missing out on the NFL ticket sales that would have been rolling in right now and the NFL TV payments don't kick in until September.  Had they known all this would be happening, I'm sure they would have planned better.

 

This is a classic working capital squeeze.  I wouldn't doubt they brought in consultants who are advising them on fixing their cost structure.  Sabres are just the latest stop in their efforts to reign the cash.   

 

It's also indicative of the scattershot approach they've taken to build their non Oil&Gas business.  They run the business more as a collection of toys with very poor financial decisions and dubious management hires.  It works "fine" when you have an unlimited checkbook from the gas wells.   No so much in other times.  It reminds me of the flights of fancy Paul Allen used to have in his dealings, because he was always backstopped by the Bank of Bill Gates.   Eventually he learned the hard way to run businesses properly.

 

 

[billsfan_34]

The Sabres are probably the biggest cluster in all of sports, and all they can come up with is canning Botts? Sure, lets bring up Adams who has been part of the losing culture. This is all on the Pegulas.

[4merper4mer]

3 hours ago, JohnC said:

The firing of Botterill was not a hockey decision. It was a financial decision. If you recall he was retained to finish the last year of his contract. The reason why he was let go was because he was not receptive to the owners' plan to dramatically strip the staffing in the organization in order to save money. As you well know the economics of football are different from the more challenging economics of hockey. In football it is nearly impossible to lose money. Even poorly managed football franchises make money. That's not the case in hockey. The Sabres were hemorrhaging money prior to the pandemic and were facing a financial meltdown during the pandemic that will be following the sport into the next season.

 

How the Pegulas have responded to this current precarious economic environment is the same way other industries such as the hotel, hospitality, airlines, retail etc have responded. The strategy is to resort to austerity for the sake of survival and viability for tomorrow.   

The initial part of your post, although possible, is speculation, not established fact.  Botts more than earned his firing on hockey alone.  His tenure included zero developed players.  None.  Maybe Goaloffson.  He also oversaw regression of several.  

 

I take no joy in his firing and it was abrupt based on recent statements.  With that said, the departure of Pilut was also abrupt and there is no excuse for it happening.  I'm not saying you're wrong, but it is possible that you are.  

 

The new GM cannot possibly be worse than the last two.  If he drives to the arena tomorrow, pours accelerants thruoughout and lights it on fire he will have caught up with Murray and Botts.  He has a difficult task with the empty roster Botts has left behind and what will certainly be a strange season for all post COVID.  Keep Eichel in the fold, get through 20-21 alive and go from there.  If Botts stayed it would be no better than that and probably worse.

[Alaska Darin]

The playoffs are where NHL teams make money.  The players don't get their salaries for playoff games, so they are incredibly profitable for the owners.  Guess what not making the playoffs means?

 

[JohnC]

13 minutes ago, Alaska Darin said:

The playoffs are where NHL teams make money.  The players don't get their salaries for playoff games, so they are incredibly profitable for the owners.  Guess what not making the playoffs means?

 

The pandemic era has a major influence on the revenue lost from the this year's playoff system because the games won't be played in front of crowds. At least with the staging of the playoffs the league will able to recoup some TV money. 

 

I'm a Sabre hockey fan. This team didn't deserve to make the playoffs. If they franchise want's to qualify for the next playoffs they need to make it an imperative to upgrade the roster. 

[Delete This Account]

On 6/16/2020 at 10:20 AM, plenzmd1 said:

and , maybe the heat from the @john wawrow interview dies down a bit now...placate the masses

 

it would have been easy to think so, but the mixed messages provided in their explanation of why they made the move, and the severe cuts that followed doesn't exactly raise confidence in how this team is being operated, and whether the focus is purely on winning.

 

jw

 

[May Day 10]

18 minutes ago, john wawrow said:

 

it would have been easy to think so, but the mixed messages provided in their explanation of why they made the move, and the severe cuts that followed doesn't exactly raise confidence in how this team is being operated, and whether the focus is purely on winning.

 

jw

 

 

 

I agree so much.  It is making the fans distraught. 

 

At least the Bills always muddied the waters and would pretend they were trying to get better in the day and age of Levy as GM, Brandon, Nix, etc...  there would always be at least 50% of fans who would defend the moves.  Through the thick of the drought, the Bills weren't nearly as bad as the Sabres are compared to the rest of the league.  

 

The Pegulas' signaling is awful and I cannot even find any solid ground to talk myself into optimism.  The fact that they sit there and say that they need to be heard and more control is chilling.  They said similar things when firing Murray and are now doubling down on that.  If soft-willed (publicly) Jason Botterill isnt malleable enough for them, I shudder thinking about what is next.  

Why do they keep going through these painful votes of confidence, only to do a complete and random-seeming about-face soon after?  Happened with Botterill, Murray/Bylsma, kind of with Housley (team falling off a cliff made it nearly impossible to keep him), Whaley (which led to the embarrassing "privy-gate"), and probably others.  Marrone quitting also comes to mind, and LaFontaine's departure.

 

I think it also puts a timer on the Bills before it blows up and there will be a divorce once McDermott and Beane have enough credibility to write their own ticket elsewhere.

 

 

 

Also, as far as this being cost moves.  Evidence points to that, such as dragging their feet on the hourly employees and firing long-time executives.

Edited June 19, 2020 by May Day 10

[Delete This Account]

On 6/16/2020 at 10:20 AM, plenzmd1 said:

and , maybe the heat from the @john wawrow interview dies down a bit now...placate the masses

 

catching up on this.

i'd think not. it's going to get worse.

 

jw

[Nextmanup]

15 hours ago, john wawrow said:

 

catching up on this.

i'd think not. it's going to get worse.

 

jw

The "I'll dig another well if I want money" era is over!  That's finished now.

 

We are right back to where we used to be in the good old days, pinching pennies, cutting corners, and just trying to survive in the league.

Just as the Bills were doomed to futility for years as long as Wilson was alive and owning the team, I feel the Sabres are in the same place now with Kim Pegula playing "business executive." 

 

As long as the Pegulas treat their ownership of the Sabres as an amateur hobby, and not a professional business, things will not improve.

 

 

[billsfan_34]

On 6/17/2020 at 3:13 PM, billsfan_34 said:

The Sabres are probably the biggest cluster in all of sports, and all they can come up with is canning Botts? Sure, lets bring up Adams who has been part of the losing culture. This is all on the Pegulas.

I find it funny how people use that skeptical emotican- like is there a worse franchise right now over the past 10 years than the Sabres? 

[K-9]

16 hours ago, Nextmanup said:

The "I'll dig another well if I want money" era is over!  That's finished now.

 

We are right back to where we used to be in the good old days, pinching pennies, cutting corners, and just trying to survive in the league.

Just as the Bills were doomed to futility for years as long as Wilson was alive and owning the team, I feel the Sabres are in the same place now with Kim Pegula playing "business executive." 

 

As long as the Pegulas treat their ownership of the Sabres as an amateur hobby, and not a professional business, things will not improve.

 

 

Kim Pegula plays the same role for the Bills as she does for the Sabres and the Bills are a stable, viable franchise which seems to suggest the Sabres have issues far beyond Kim Pegula. 

[4merper4mer]

4 hours ago, K-9 said:

Kim Pegula plays the same role for the Bills as she does for the Sabres and the Bills are a stable, viable franchise which seems to suggest the Sabres have issues far beyond Kim Pegula. 

Tim Murray was the fire starter and Botts was simply a nice guy in way over his head.  There may be off ice issues and part of that may be with the Pegulas, I don't know.  

 

On the ice Tim Murray turn an embarrassment of riches into a straight up embarrassment.  He did so in record time.  Botts came in, correctly adopted a player development philosophy and managed to develop a grand total of zero NHL players......maybe one.