Tre White - Best in the League?

[Royale with Cheese]

14 minutes ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

You have to put resources in every position.  As far as the d-line, we lost Shaq and Jordan Phillips so you have to replace them.  

I don't get what you're saying in the bolded part.  The cap hit to a big contract CB is the same as a contract hit to a mid priced defensive end?

I thought it was nuts that the Pats paid Gilmore, but it worked.  His career took off in NE and he's a pretty good man to man corner.  It also helps that NE can put pressure on the QB much better than we can.

So everyone takes CB's early?  

 

We did replace Phillips and Shaq.

I don't remember you saying "mid priced" and we did that....with Addison. 

Gilmore was very good here too.  If he wasn't....Belicheck wouldn't have went after him and paid him all that money.  Did you not think Gilmore was good here?

I didn't say everyone, I said it's a position consistently taken early.

 

How confident are you on our defenses coverages?  The guys I know and trust their judgement like Gunner and 716 are basically saying the opposite of you.

Who is right?

23 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

When we were talking yesterday I brought that up under the palms coverage. Palms is a modified cover 4 which CAN turn into man based on the looks and route combos the offense gives you

 

 

And who was Gilmore's number one supporter on bbmb?!

 

I was a huge supporter of Gilmore....huge.

13 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Just listen to what I tell you and everything will be ok

 

You put fruit on your pizza.

37 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yep. This idea that Tre White "can only play zone" I mean do people not actually watch the games? Not expecting everyone to be able to recognise every coverage as well as you do 716 - you are one of the best posters we have in that regard - but amazes me that we have people who supposedly watch the games each week and can't spot even at a basic level man vs zone. Tre plays plenty of man in our scheme. Even in what are essentially zone concepts at times they will basically play Tre 1:1 in a man type look and roll the coverage the other way. 

 

1 hour ago, Buffalo716 said:

People overestimate how hard playing corner in any scheme is

 

Also it's not like McDermott run 80% zone coverage. It's about 60/40 and he really likes man to man on third down. Tre is huge do what we do

 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

He is not an elite like Peterson, Revis, and Sherman were in their primes. But he is top 3 or 4 now and in order to keep him they will have to make him highest paid DB in the league.  Unless they sign Clowney they will have no other player on defense that will command top 3 money at their position any time soon. They can afford to overspend on White now. 

For another perspective,  Morse is a 8-15th best center in the league and he was paid top dollar. It's what happens from time to time when the need is great.  Can they find another CB in the draft to replace him in two years? Possible but unlikely. They are so old on the front 7. They need multiple picks and that assumes Edmunds can get better

[Royale with Cheese]

6 minutes ago, Ethan in Portland said:

He is not an elite like Peterson, Revis, and Sherman were in their primes. But he is top 3 or 4 now and in order to keep him they will have to make him highest paid DB in the league.  Unless they sign Clowney they will have no other player on defense that will command top 3 money at their position any time soon. They can afford to overspend on White now. 

For another perspective,  Morse is a 8-15th best center in the league and he was paid top dollar. It's what happens from time to time when the need is great.  Can they find another CB in the draft to replace him in two years? Possible but unlikely. They are so old on the front 7. They need multiple picks and that assumes Edmunds can get better

 

The only place they are old on the front 7 is the defensive ends.  Our linebackers and DT's are young.

Edmunds, Oliver, Harrison Phillips, Milano, Butler and Jefferson are all young.

 

I think you have Morse rated too low at the low end.  The guy didn't give up a sack in something like 1,5000 straight snaps while at KC at one point.

He was a top 7 center in the league.

[Happy]

2 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

We did replace Phillips and Shaq.

I don't remember you saying "mid priced" and we did that....with Addison. 

Gilmore was very good here too.  If he wasn't....Belicheck wouldn't have went after him and paid him all that money.  Did you not think Gilmore was good here?

I didn't say everyone, I said it's a position consistently taken early.

 

How confident are you on our defenses coverages?  The guys I know and trust their judgement like Gunner and 716 are basically saying the opposite of you.

Who is right?

 

Gilmore was used in Rex's defense, which was pretty much a disaster all around.  Most of us can agree on that.  IIRC, Gilmore was used more in zone and he's a better man on man, which is how NE uses him.  I thought he was pretty good, though was a bit surprised Belichick paid him that much.  That usually doesn't happen in NE.

 

I think our defense does a good job in coverage, even Belichick mentioned as much.  I wish we would a better job at rushing the passer, though maybe the change at d-line coordinator had something to do with that.

 

Trust who you feel comfortable trusting.  Makes no difference to me.  You have to do more than just cover, though.  You won't beat Mahomes that way and you wouldn't have beat Brady or Peyton Manning that way, either.  They'd carve you up.

[GoBills808]

11 minutes ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

Gilmore was used in Rex's defense, which was pretty much a disaster all around.  Most of us can agree on that.  IIRC, Gilmore was used more in zone and he's a better man on man, which is how NE uses him.  I thought he was pretty good, though was a bit surprised Belichick paid him that much.  That usually doesn't happen in NE.

 

I think our defense does a good job in coverage, even Belichick mentioned as much.  I wish we would a better job at rushing the passer, though maybe the change at d-line coordinator had something to do with that.

 

Trust who you feel comfortable trusting.  Makes no difference to me.  You have to do more than just cover, though.  You won't beat Mahomes that way and you wouldn't have beat Brady or Peyton Manning that way, either.  They'd carve you up.

This defense hasn’t been carved up in a long time

[Happy]

10 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

This defense hasn’t been carved up in a long time

 

This past season, no, they didn't.  They didn't play any QB that could do that.  They got run over by Philly, so Wentz didn't have to pass.  Brady is a shell of his former self.

In 2018 they did but that was a transition year so I wouldn't count that.

[GoBills808]

1 hour ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

This past season, no, they didn't.  They didn't play any QB that could do that.  They got run over by Philly, so Wentz didn't have to pass.  Brady is a shell of his former self.

In 2018 they did but that was a transition year so I wouldn't count that.

LMAO we played the league MVP this year

[MJS]

1 hour ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

This past season, no, they didn't.  They didn't play any QB that could do that.  They got run over by Philly, so Wentz didn't have to pass.  Brady is a shell of his former self.

In 2018 they did but that was a transition year so I wouldn't count that.

The AFC is short on those caliber of QB's now. It's pretty much Mahomes in a class by himself and the rest of the elite passing QB's are in the NFC. Jackson is elite, but a big part of that is his running ability.

[Happy]

14 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

LMAO we played the league MVP this year

 

Lamar Jackson got the MVP from his running abilities

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

Gilmore was used in Rex's defense, which was pretty much a disaster all around.  Most of us can agree on that.  IIRC, Gilmore was used more in zone and he's a better man on man, which is how NE uses him.  I thought he was pretty good, though was a bit surprised Belichick paid him that much.  That usually doesn't happen in NE.

 

I think our defense does a good job in coverage, even Belichick mentioned as much.  I wish we would a better job at rushing the passer, though maybe the change at d-line coordinator had something to do with that.

 

Trust who you feel comfortable trusting.  Makes no difference to me.  You have to do more than just cover, though.  You won't beat Mahomes that way and you wouldn't have beat Brady or Peyton Manning that way, either.  They'd carve you up.

 

Belichick has always paid defensive backs in his most successful teams. If there is a coach who totally disproves the "pay rushers and get by in the secondary" it is Belichick. 

 

Personally I think you have equal chance of winning either way so long as you have good talent, good scheme and good coaching. Denver won a Superbowl with pass rush. Seattle won one with coverage. There is no right way and wrong way. It is just stylistic preference after that. 

[Stank_Nasty]

16 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

LMAO we played the league MVP this year

let’s not forget about prescott. He was 2nd in the entire league in yds and tossed 30 td. Dallas had 7 freaking points heading into the 4th quarter until the bills completely let off the gas on defense and offense. 

[Happy]

21 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Belichick has always paid defensive backs in his most successful teams. If there is a coach who totally disproves the "pay rushers and get by in the secondary" it is Belichick. 

 

Personally I think you have equal chance of winning either way so long as you have good talent, good scheme and good coaching. Denver won a Superbowl with pass rush. Seattle won one with coverage. There is no right way and wrong way. It is just stylistic preference after that. 

 

Belichick also isn't afraid to blitz when the situation is right.  He isn't afraid to stunt the defensive line to get after the passer.  He doesn't play vanilla up front and he tends to balance the front and back so one is not the focus over the other.  His defenses are, at a minimum, very pesky and effective.  

 

Seattle was better on the back in 2013, that is true.  They had Kam Chancellor and Earl Thomas at the safety spots, as well as Richard Sherman and Brandon Browner at the CB spots; quite the heavy hitter lineup.  They were also 11th in the NFL in QB sacks that year, one out of top 10.  Sounds to me like the Seahawk 2013 d-line outperformed ours this past year.  Could the all-star backfield have something to do with that?  Quite possibly, but they got after the QB.

 

I hear you with the good talent argument, and agree.  I do think you have to do a certain amount of balancing between the front and back, even if one has the majority of the talent.  You can't go vanilla with the rush and count on disguised coverages; a good QB can still beat that.

[Royale with Cheese]

38 minutes ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

Lamar Jackson got the MVP from his running abilities

The guy threw 36 TD passes.

[Royale with Cheese]

5 minutes ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

Belichick also isn't afraid to blitz when the situation is right.  He isn't afraid to stunt the defensive line to get after the passer.  He doesn't play vanilla up front and he tends to balance the front and back so one is not the focus over the other.  His defenses are, at a minimum, very pesky and effective.  

 

Seattle was better on the back in 2013, that is true.  They had Kam Chancellor and Earl Thomas at the safety spots, as well as Richard Sherman and Brandon Browner at the CB spots; quite the heavy hitter lineup.  They were also 11th in the NFL in QB sacks that year, one out of top 10. Sounds to me like the Seahawk 2013 d-line outperformed ours this past year.Could the all-star backfield have something to do with that?  Quite possibly, but they got after the QB.

 

I hear you with the good talent argument, and agree.  I do think you have to do a certain amount of balancing between the front and back, even if one has the majority of the talent.  You can't go vanilla with the rush and count on disguised coverages; a good QB can still beat that.

The Bills defensive this past year had 44 sacks.

The Seahawks defense in 2013 had 44 sacks.

 

[GunnerBill]

3 minutes ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

Belichick also isn't afraid to blitz when the situation is right.  He isn't afraid to stunt the defensive line to get after the passer.  He doesn't play vanilla up front and he tends to balance the front and back so one is not the focus over the other.  His defenses are, at a minimum, very pesky and effective.  

 

Seattle was better on the back in 2013, that is true.  They had Kam Chancellor and Earl Thomas at the safety spots, as well as Richard Sherman and Brandon Browner at the CB spots; quite the heavy hitter lineup.  They were also 11th in the NFL in QB sacks that year, one out of top 10.  Sounds to me like the Seahawk 2013 d-line outperformed ours this past year.  Could the all-star backfield have something to do with that?  Quite possibly, but they got after the QB.

 

I hear you with the good talent argument, and agree.  I do think you have to do a certain amount of balancing between the front and back, even if one has the majority of the talent.  You can't go vanilla with the rush and count on disguised coverages; a good QB can still beat that.

 

Seattle had better talent up front than us - that is true - but they were, if anything even more vanilla. Seattle were actually 8th in sacks their Superbowl year, not 11th. They had 44 sacks. The Bills in 2019 were 12th is sacks with.... well what do you know... 44 sacks. 

 

You prefer your defense to be built from front to back. I understand that and I get it. But you need to give up on the argument that you can't win with a defense built back to front. Belichick has done it numerous times and pays DBs while he lets pass rushers walk, and Seattle build the most dominant defense of the last decade that way too. That is without Carolina and Atlanta who made Superbowls running similar schemes. You can win the other way... Denver were a defense led by their front, so were Philadelphia (even if their D didn't show up so much in the Superbowl itself) and so going back a little further were Harbaugh's Ravens. It can be done either way - the evidence is pretty clear on that. 

8 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

The Bills defensive this past year had 44 sacks.

The Seahawks defense in 2013 had 44 sacks.

 

 

Great minds... and that was with Cliff Avril and Michael Bennett up front. They had more talent than the Bills front currently as but they were pretty vanilla scheme wise.

 

As @Buffalo716 has already mentioned in this thread while the Bills are certainly more complex on the backend they are not a totally vanilla front. 

 

I would 100% like to see the Bills rush improve - especially from the edge.... but you can win with a defense that is built on a top notch secondary and a slightly above average line. There is loads of evidence to support that.  

[Royale with Cheese]

7 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Seattle had better talent up front than us - that is true - but they were, if anything even more vanilla. Seattle were actually 8th in sacks their Superbowl year, not 11th. They had 44 sacks. The Bills in 2019 were 12th is sacks with.... well what do you know... 44 sacks. 

 

You prefer your defense to be built from front to back. I understand that and I get it. But you need to give up on the argument that you can't win with a defense built back to front. Belichick has done it numerous times and pays DBs while he lets pass rushers walk, and Seattle build the most dominant defense of the last decade that way too. That is without Carolina and Atlanta who made Superbowls running similar schemes. You can win the other way... Denver were a defense led by their front, so were Philadelphia (even if their D didn't show up so much in the Superbowl itself) and so going back a little further were Harbaugh's Ravens. It can be done either way - the evidence is pretty clear on that. 

I was shocked with Belichick trading away t his best player on the DL twice....Richard Seymour and Chandler Jones.

Thought the defense would take a step back because of it but it actually got better.  

Edited April 18, 2020 by Royale with Cheese

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, Royale with Cheese said:

I was shocked twice with Belichick trading away twice his best player on the DL....Richard Seymour and Chandler Jones.

Thought the defense would take a step back because of it but it actually got better.  

 

And even more recently he let Flowers walk while paying Gilmore and McCourty near top of the market money at corner and safety. 

[Happy]

23 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

The guy threw 36 TD passes.

 

He also had over 1200 yards rushing, averaging about 7 y/c and about 80 y/g.  Better than some RBs

[Royale with Cheese]

Just now, GunnerBill said:

 

And even more recently he let Flowers walk while paying Gilmore and McCourty near top of the market money at corner and safety. 

I knew I was missing a 3rd guy he did that with.

 

I believe Ty Law was also the highest paid corner at one point.

[GunnerBill]

Just now, Royale with Cheese said:

I knew I was missing a 3rd guy he did that with.

 

I believe Ty Law was also the highest paid corner at one point.

 

Yep. And Revis and Browner in 2014 was the best paid starting corner duo in the NFL that season. Belichick's best defenses in New England have been back to front. 

[Buffalo716]

14 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Seattle had better talent up front than us - that is true - but they were, if anything even more vanilla. Seattle were actually 8th in sacks their Superbowl year, not 11th. They had 44 sacks. The Bills in 2019 were 12th is sacks with.... well what do you know... 44 sacks. 

 

You prefer your defense to be built from front to back. I understand that and I get it. But you need to give up on the argument that you can't win with a defense built back to front. Belichick has done it numerous times and pays DBs while he lets pass rushers walk, and Seattle build the most dominant defense of the last decade that way too. That is without Carolina and Atlanta who made Superbowls running similar schemes. You can win the other way... Denver were a defense led by their front, so were Philadelphia (even if their D didn't show up so much in the Superbowl itself) and so going back a little further were Harbaugh's Ravens. It can be done either way - the evidence is pretty clear on that. 

 

Great minds... and that was with Cliff Avril and Michael Bennett up front. They had more talent than the Bills front currently as but they were pretty vanilla scheme wise.

 

As @Buffalo716 has already mentioned in this thread while the Bills are certainly more complex on the backend they are not a totally vanilla front. 

 

I would 100% like to see the Bills rush improve - especially from the edge.... but you can win with a defense that is built on a top notch secondary and a slightly above average line. There is loads of evidence to support that.  

Sean needs his defensive line to be cohesive. To play Gap integrity football and then finally get after the quarterback in the right situation

 

Lots of dudes can rack off 15 Sacks well not playing within their scheme and actually hurting the defense

 

Sean would rather have a few dudes get 7 to 10 the right way. Terrell suggs did it the right way. Monster run-stuffer on the first two downs and only cared about getting his on 3rd

[Royale with Cheese]

3 minutes ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

He also had over 1200 yards rushing, averaging about 7 y/c and about 80 y/g.  Better than some RBs

Yeah...I know.  

So you’re saying him leading the NFL in passing TD’s and being in the top in several other passing categories didn’t mean much?

[Happy]

1 minute ago, Royale with Cheese said:

Yeah...I know.  

So you’re saying him leading the NFL in passing TD’s and being in the top in several other passing categories didn’t mean much?

 

Huh?  Where do you come up with this stuff?

[Royale with Cheese]

2 minutes ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

Huh?  Where do you come up with this stuff?

 

[GoBills808]

7 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

Sean needs his defensive line to be cohesive. To play Gap integrity football and then finally get after the quarterback in the right situation

 

Lots of dudes can rack off 15 Sacks well not playing within their scheme and actually hurting the defense

 

Sean would rather have a few dudes get 7 to 10 the right way. Terrell suggs did it the right way. Monster run-stuffer on the first two downs and only cared about getting his on 3rd

Yes that's why we were never re-signing Phillips, and I said as much right during midseason when he was racking up sacks...not a scheme guy, just a byproduct

[Happy]

1 minute ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

 

He averaged about 200 y/g passing, you think that is astronomical?  Dude got 1200+ yards rushing, better than most RBs, and threw more toward the end zone while rushing more in mid field.  You really think he would have been MVP without his rushing?  That is what people want to see, it's entertaining...like a circus, only without the smell.

[GoBills808]

6 minutes ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

He averaged about 200 y/g passing, you think that is astronomical?  Dude got 1200+ yards rushing, better than most RBs, and threw more toward the end zone while rushing more in mid field.  You really think he would have been MVP without his rushing?  That is what people want to see, it's entertaining...like a circus, only without the smell.

4th in the league in ANY/A

[Royale with Cheese]

1 minute ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

He averaged about 200 y/g passing, you think that is astronomical?  Dude got 1200+ yards rushing, better than most RBs, and threw more toward the end zone while rushing more in mid field.  You really think he would have been MVP without his rushing?  That is what people want to see, it's entertaining...like a circus, only without the smell.

 

When did ever say he didn't win it without his rushing?  I was just commenting on your statement that he won the MVP with his running abilities.

I think he won because of his total work at QB.  You're the one who made the definitive statement that he won the MVP one way....not me.

3 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

4th in the league in ANY/A

 

Yeah but passing yards.  

[T master]

Every Superman has their Kryptonite & Tre will have good & bad games but it's about that players ego what they think of themselves & their game ! Tre definitely knows he's a good player but doesn't get the accolades (because he's with the Bills) that he deserves which serves him well to be motivated to be better each year .

 

That being said he's shooting for the top of list when it comes to a pay check & even though he may not become the king of that mountain it won't be because he's not trying to make it there .

 

If Beane doesn't give him the type of numbers Tre feels he's worth you will see him do like every other player in his position wait to hit FA & then he will get top dog money which let's face it when it comes to loyalty the only "Loyalty" any of these players have is to the all mighty dollar greed is the biggest motivating factor in all that they do !! 

 

And as they are walking out the door in their statements they will say how much they appreciate the team they are leaving for giving them the chance to play for such a great organization & how they will always cherish their time they had with that team while they back up the truck to unload all there bags of cash ...

[K-9]

On 4/17/2020 at 5:19 PM, Happy Gilmore said:

 

Gilmore was used in Rex's defense, which was pretty much a disaster all around.  Most of us can agree on that.  IIRC, Gilmore was used more in zone and he's a better man on man, which is how NE uses him.  I thought he was pretty good, though was a bit surprised Belichick paid him that much.  That usually doesn't happen in NE.

 

I think our defense does a good job in coverage, even Belichick mentioned as much.  I wish we would a better job at rushing the passer, though maybe the change at d-line coordinator had something to do with that.

 

Trust who you feel comfortable trusting.  Makes no difference to me.  You have to do more than just cover, though.  You won't beat Mahomes that way and you wouldn't have beat Brady or Peyton Manning that way, either.  They'd carve you up.

Per the bold and just as a matter of clarification, Ryan’s defenses have always been predicated on man coverage at the corners. That was no different here as Gilmore and Darby were in man coverage nearly all the time. And coming out of college, Gillmore was known as a man corner. You may recall his rookie year when, after struggling the first half dozen games or so, the decision was made to let him shadow the opponents’ top WR threat and his game took off when he was allowed to match up and play man to man coverage. 

Edited April 20, 2020 by K-9

[Happy]

29 minutes ago, K-9 said:

Per the bold and just as a matter of clarification, Ryan’s defenses have always been predicated on man coverage at the corners. That was no different here as Gilmore and Darby were in man coverage nearly all the time. And coming out of college, Gillmore was known as a man corner. You may recall his rookie year when, after struggling the first half dozen games or so, the decision was made to let him shadow the opponents’ top WR threat and his game took off when he was allowed to match up and play man to man coverage. 

 

If so, why did Gilmore seem to struggle here?  He wasn't as good here as he is in NE; you concur?  Also, why did Gilmore point his finger at the safety (I forget who it was) when a coverage was blown?  That tells me they were in zone and Gilmore and the corner did not communicate when handing off the assignment.

[NewEra]

While he may not be the best corner in the league, there isn’t a corner I’d rather have than Tre

[K-9]

13 minutes ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

If so, why did Gilmore seem to struggle here?  He wasn't as good here as he is in NE; you concur?  Also, why did Gilmore point his finger at the safety (I forget who it was) when a coverage was blown?  That tells me they were in zone and Gilmore and the corner did not communicate when handing off the assignment.

Look, I’m not gonna get into a protracted debate about how Gilmore was or wasn’t used in Buffalo. The fact remains he has always been recognized as an outstanding man to man corner since coming out. And under Ryan, whose schemes are based on man coverage on the boundaries as I said previously, he and Darby played man coverage the vast majority of the time in Buffalo. Belichick didn’t discover any hidden man to man prowess when he got to NE***; it’s always been known. 

 

And as to the specific play you mention, when Hogan beat him and he did his finger pointing, I believe Gilmore was playing a man under coverage scheme and the safety was late. There were other times when Ryan used zone looks as well. But those few plays don’t negate the fact that he played man coverage the vast majority of the time. A few plays here and there don’t indicate zone schemes as being more favorable to Ryan. His defenses have always been about pressure and sending extra rushers to generate it and, once again, that’s made possible with two man to man CBs on the boundaries. 

[Call_Of_Ktulu]

The most that I would pay White would be 5years 70 mil 38 guaranteed. If that cannot happen I would trade him for a 1st and 2nd rd pick.