BUF-HOU Playoff Redux: 2nd Half Kickoff

[LeGOATski]

4 minutes ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

 

 

No need to kneel

If a ball gets to the end zone and touches the ground, it’s an automatic touchback. There’s no need for a player to pick it up and kneel, or even catch a ball if it’s headed for the end zone and they don’t intend to return it.

This is a small time saver, but the goal is to blow a play dead earlier so that unnecessary collisions don’t happen. Under the previous rules, a player could take their time gathering a ball and kneeling while the coverage team and return team blockers still careened toward each other for no reason.

That's when the ball gets to the end zone and touches the ground when no one catches it. "...

There’s no need for a player to pick it up and kneel, or even catch a ball if it’s headed for the end zone..."

 

In this instance, the player caught it, so he has to down it or run.

 

If a Texans player had picked it up and ran, they would've kept the play going.

[GoBills808]

34 minutes ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

All the ref had to do was catch the ball, just like is common in today NFL returners catch the ball and lob it to the ref.

Interesting! Do you have any examples of this common occurrence of players catching the ball on kickoffs and throwing it at the ref without taking a knee first?

[LeGOATski]

36 minutes ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

All the ref had to do was catch the ball, just like is common in today NFL returners catch the ball and lob it to the ref.

You're making this up for the sake of this thread.

 

It's not common at all for a player to do what the Texans returner did. It is common for the player to catch the ball and do a quick kneel. Or just signal the fair catch. Maybe that is what you're thinking of. They signal the fair catch and toss it to the ref.

2 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Interesting! Do you have any examples of this common occurrence of players catching the ball on kickoffs and throwing it at the ref without taking a knee first?

Why are we doing this to ourselves again?

 

You like reliving the agony?

[RoyBatty is alive]

4 minutes ago, LeGOATski said:

That's when the ball gets to the end zone and touches the ground when no one catches it. "...

There’s no need for a player to pick it up and kneel, or even catch a ball if it’s headed for the end zone..."

 

In this instance, the player caught it, so he has to down it or run.

 

If a Texans player had picked it up and ran, they would've kept the play going.

Mike Pereira, the NFL’s former vice president of officiating, backed up the call being change. “Didn’t see what happened on the touchback in the end zone but even if you don’t down it, tossing the ball to the official or dropping the ball intentionally ends the play,” Pereira wrote on Twitter. “You are deemed to have given yourself up.”

 

I guess i will chose to believe Pereira.

[LeGOATski]

 

If it was a common thing to do, the ref would've not been surprised by it, lol.

 

On a side note, I love the transparency of the XFL. No turning the mic off when discussing a ruling. No need to.

[RoyBatty is alive]

4 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Interesting! Do you have any examples of this common occurrence of players catching the ball on kickoffs and throwing it at the ref without taking a knee first?

 

Why are you asking a question you have already received the answer to, I have already gone though that with you about 10 times in Shoutbox, 

 

 

Edited March 10, 2020 by RoyBatty is alive

[GoBills808]

3 minutes ago, LeGOATski said:

You're making this up for the sake of this thread.

 

It's not common at all for a player to do what the Texans returner did. It is common for the player to catch the ball and do a quick kneel. Or just signal the fair catch. Maybe that is what you're thinking of. They signal the fair catch and toss it to the ref.

Why are we doing this to ourselves again?

 

You like reliving the agony?

This is part of the grieving process.

[LeGOATski]

2 minutes ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

Mike Pereira, the NFL’s former vice president of officiating, backed up the call being change. “Didn’t see what happened on the touchback in the end zone but even if you don’t down it, tossing the ball to the official or dropping the ball intentionally ends the play,” Pereira wrote on Twitter. “You are deemed to have given yourself up.”

 

I guess i will chose to believe Pereira.

Show the rule.

 

You can choose to believe the earth is flat. Doesn't make it correct.

[Billl]

Like most fans, I watch football for the officiating.  I would prefer playoff games to be decided by Robert's Rules of Order and leaving the players out of it entirely.

 

The reality is that not one single person would be complaining about this had the official simply signaled a touchback in the first place instead of being an idiot and deciding to over-officiate.  Instead, you get an entire off-season of whining from people who would rather determine the outcome of games based on technicalities (never mind that if the teams had been reversed, they'd immediately take the opposite position).

[RoyBatty is alive]

1 minute ago, LeGOATski said:

 

If it was a common thing to do, the ref would've not been surprised by it, lol.

 

On a side note, I love the transparency of the XFL. No turning the mic off when discussing a ruling. No need to.

 

 

Common, no not common, never happened before, yest it has.  NFL has bent over backwards to make kickoffs as benign as possible and this is a reflection of it, returner gave himself up.

[Billl]

8 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Interesting! Do you have any examples of this common occurrence of players catching the ball on kickoffs and throwing it at the ref without taking a knee first?

Do you have any examples of it ever being called something other than a touchback?  Seems that would make more sense than asking someone to prove a negative.

[Mark Vader]

I still want to know what the replacement officials were doing getting involved with this ruling.

 

To my knowledge they had no business being a part of the game unless another official was injured.

[whorlnut]

OP...just let it go...

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, Billl said:

Do you have any examples of it ever being called something other than a touchback?  Seems that would make more sense than asking someone to prove a negative.

The point, obviously, is that it's not a common occurrence. In fact, you won't be able to find another example of a return man catching a kickoff and throwing it to the ref without first taking a knee. In this case I'm asking you to prove a positive.

Just now, whorlnut said:

OP...just let it go...

No thank you

[Capco]

1 minute ago, Mark Vader said:

I still want to know what the replacement officials were doing getting involved with this ruling.

 

To my knowledge they had no business being a part of the game unless another official was injured.

 

I found that rather odd as well. 

[RoyBatty is alive]

3 minutes ago, LeGOATski said:

Show the rule.

 

You can choose to believe the earth is flat. Doesn't make it correct.

 

And you can be sarcastic and demand i show you the rule or accept what a former VP of NFL's former VP officiating says.  If you want to prove how incorrect i am, you go look up the rule.  

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, Capco said:

 

I found that rather odd as well. 

I also found it odd that no replay was undertaken although NFL rules demand video replay for all turnovers and scoring plays, both of which this kickoff fulfilled.

[Billl]

1 minute ago, GoBills808 said:

I also found it odd that no replay was undertaken although NFL rules demand video replay for all turnovers and scoring plays, both of which this kickoff fulfilled.

Completely incorrect.  This was ruled a touchback which is neither a turnover nor a scoring play.

Edited March 10, 2020 by Billl

[GoBills808]

Just now, Billl said:

Completely incorrect

Interesting! How so?

[Billl]

1 minute ago, GoBills808 said:

Interesting! How so?

Well... No points were scored, so it wasn't a scoring play.  Houston maintained possession, so there wasn't a turnover.  Other than that, spot on.

[LeGOATski]

6 minutes ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

 

And you can be sarcastic and demand i show you the rule or accept what a former VP of NFL's former VP officiating says.  If you want to prove how incorrect i am, you go look up the rule.  

You literally showed us the rule that says they need to down it if they catch it, lol. 

 

Don't want to kneel? Don't catch the ball.

 

Maybe the Texans returner was just confused about the NFL's new kneeling policy...

[klos63]

1 hour ago, Putin said:

So how is this any different then a receiver who drops the ball prematurely/celebrating before crossing the goal line ? 

Thank you, that's been my argument.

[GoBills808]

4 minutes ago, Billl said:

Well... No points were scored, so it wasn't a scoring play.  Houston maintained possession, so there wasn't a turnover.  Other than that, spot on.

It was ruled a touchdown by the referee on the field. That's the hands raised up signal. 

 

All scoring plays and turnovers are subject to replay review courtesy of the 2019 Approved Rule Changes Article 2:

 

ARTICLE 2. REQUEST FOR REVIEW. A Replay Review will be initiated by a member of the Officiating department from a location in the League office or a Replay Official from a Replay Booth comparable to the location of the coaches’ booth or Press Box when the on-field ruling is: (a) a score for either team; (b) an interception; (c) a fumble or backward pass that is recovered by an opponent or goes out of bounds through an opponent’s end zone; (d) a muffed scrimmage kick recovered by the kicking team; (e) after the two-minute warning of each half; (f) throughout any overtime period; and (g) any disqualification of a player.; and (h) any Try attempt (successful or unsuccessful).

[klos63]

1 hour ago, Shaw66 said:

Illegal forward pass in the end zone.  Safety.  

 

Player's intention is irrelevant.   Player's lack of knowledge of the rules is irrelevant.  

 

Guy running free downfield, in celebration drops the ball and raises his arms before crossing the goal line.   It's a fumble, intention doesn't matter.  

 

Before the rule change, guy doesn't touch the kickoff and it's rolling freely in the end zone.  Kicking team recovers.  Touchdown, intention doesn't matter.   

 

Quarterback under pressure throws deep up the left sideline.   About the time the QB releases the ball, the receiver, having misread the defense breaks off the route and crosses the field.   Intentional grounding, intention doesn't matter.   Yes, even "intentional" grounding, intention doesn't matter.  

It was not my intent to grab the facemask while trying to tackle the runner. The intent argument is a poor one. Rules are rules.

[Billl]

2 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

It was ruled a touchdown by the referee on the field. That's the hands raised up signal. 

 

All scoring plays and turnovers are subject to replay review courtesy of the 2019 Approved Rule Changes Article 2:

 

ARTICLE 2. REQUEST FOR REVIEW. A Replay Review will be initiated by a member of the Officiating department from a location in the League office or a Replay Official from a Replay Booth comparable to the location of the coaches’ booth or Press Box when the on-field ruling is: (a) a score for either team; (b) an interception; (c) a fumble or backward pass that is recovered by an opponent or goes out of bounds through an opponent’s end zone; (d) a muffed scrimmage kick recovered by the kicking team; (e) after the two-minute warning of each half; (f) throughout any overtime period; and (g) any disqualification of a player.; and (h) any Try attempt (successful or unsuccessful).

You're wrong.  It was never ruled a touchdown nor a turnover.  One referee signaled touchdown, but the head official ruled it a touchback.  This happens all the time.  

[RoyBatty is alive]

1 minute ago, LeGOATski said:

You literally showed us the rule that says they need to down it if they catch it, lol. 

 

Don't want to kneel? Don't catch the ball.

 

Maybe the Texans returner was just confused about the NFL's new kneeling policy...

 

 

That wasnt quoting the rule book and it was hardly inclusive of what occurred.   As i said you can either believe an expert in NFL officiating or use your own unbiased interpretation.  If you want to go to the NFL rule book and prove me wrong knock yourself out.  I am going to bet the rule book  is not inclusive of what acually happened,.    No one outside of disgruntled Bill fans cares about this at all so i doubt the NFL rules committee will even address what happened.    At some point a thing called common sense should take over. 

[GoBills808]

4 minutes ago, Billl said:

You're wrong.  It was never ruled a touchdown nor a turnover.  One referee signaled touchdown, but the head official ruled it a touchback.  This happens all the time.  

Again incorrect. The head referee, indicated by the white hat, is the one closest to the play who signals touchdown. It was ruled a touchback only after discussion amongst replacement referees on the sidelines wearing black. 

[SoCal Deek]

27 minutes ago, Mark Vader said:

I still want to know what the replacement officials were doing getting involved with this ruling.

 

To my knowledge they had no business being a part of the game unless another official was injured.

Bingo!  I was literally SCREAMING at the TV "Who are those guys?"...and "What authority do they have to overrule the Referee in the white hat?"

[Jauronimo]

Does the fact that the head official changed his ruling on the play after a 5 minute sideline meeting with backup officials instead of allowing video review figure this mess out make anyone feel better about how this went down?  What transpired on this play is completely unprecedented.  

 

The natural question is: why didn't they let this go to video review? Its common officiating practice on scoring plays and turnovers to put the whistles away and let the sequence play out followed by video review.  

Edited March 10, 2020 by Jauronimo

[SoCal Deek]

6 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Again incorrect. The head referee, indicated by the white hat, is the one closest to the play who signals touchdown. It was ruled a touchback only after discussion amongst replacement referees on the sidelines wearing black. 

Again...bingo.  The refs are NOT there to save players from their own ignorance of the rules.  Bills touchdown!

[GoBills808]

Just now, Jauronimo said:

Does the fact that the head official changed his ruling on the play after a 5 minute sideline meeting with backup officials instead of allowing video review figure this mess out make anyone feel better about how this went down?  What transpired on this play is completely unprecedented.  

This poll now serves as replay assist for the play in question, as NFL procedures were not followed during the actual game. Your participation in this process is noted and appreciated.

[Billl]

4 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Again incorrect. The head referee, indicated by the white hat, is the one closest to the play who signals touchdown. It was ruled a touchback only after discussion amongst replacement referees on the sidelines wearing black. 

I understand how someone could be confused by the way the automatic review process works. All scoring plays and plays resulting in turnovers are reviewed to confirm that they were, in fact, scores/turnovers.  Plays in which it was ruled that there was neither a score nor a turnover ARE NOT automatically reviewed to determine whether or not there should have been a score/turnover.  It's a little confusing.

 

That said, it's now been spelled out for you very clearly.  If you want to throw a tantrum, that's your right, but this is absolutely not an automatic review situation.

[SoCal Deek]

2 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

Does the fact that the head official changed his ruling on the play after a 5 minute sideline meeting with backup officials instead of allowing video review figure this mess out make anyone feel better about how this went down?  What transpired on this play is completely unprecedented.  

When a player returns a fumble or interception and drops/spikes the ball before getting into the endzone...it is called a fumble EVERY TIME.  Even though everyone knows the player was intending to cross the goal line before dropping the ball.

[BeastMaster]

42 minutes ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

Mike Pereira, the NFL’s former vice president of officiating, backed up the call being change. “Didn’t see what happened on the touchback in the end zone but even if you don’t down it, tossing the ball to the official or dropping the ball intentionally ends the play,” Pereira wrote on Twitter. “You are deemed to have given yourself up.”

 

I guess i will chose to believe Pereira.

Pereira is full of crap and clearly didn't know the rules then.

 

 

[GoBills808]

Just now, Billl said:

I understand how someone could be confused by the way the automatic review process works. All scoring plays and plays resulting in turnovers are reviewed to confirm that they were, in fact, scores/turnovers.  Plays in which it was ruled that there was neither a score nor a turnover ARE NOT automatically reviewed to determine whether or not there should have been a score/turnover.  It's a little confusing.

 

That said, it's now been spelled out for you very clearly.  If you want to throw a tantrum, that's your right, but this is absolutely not an automatic review situation.

As stated, once the head referee signals for a Buffalo TD, the ruling on the field of a touchdown can only be overturned on video review. This was a point of emphasis in the NFL this year as to allow for the  referees best positioned to make the call, in order to allow them leeway for plays to develop and have replay either confirm or deny the ruling on the field.

[PolishPrince]

55 minutes ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

 

 

No need to kneel

If a ball gets to the end zone and touches the ground, it’s an automatic touchback. There’s no need for a player to pick it up and kneel, or even catch a ball if it’s headed for the end zone and they don’t intend to return it.

This is a small time saver, but the goal is to blow a play dead earlier so that unnecessary collisions don’t happen. Under the previous rules, a player could take their time gathering a ball and kneeling while the coverage team and return team blockers still careened toward each other for no reason.

You have poor reading comprehension if you think this rule is what happened in Bills game. This rule very clearly states if the kick lands in endzone, not caught and then tossed to hit the ground.

[4_kidd_4]

Safety and Buffalo ball.

 

Period.

 

The worst part was the optics of the black clad “extra officials” running onto the field to intervene. 

 

Like, if you’re gonna hose us and also try to quash “tHe NfL iS FiXEd!!!” rhetoric, that was a reeeeeally bad way to go about both.  Buzz down from the booth and meet on the sidelines, not middle of the field. Bad look all around, especially when you’re essentially making spit up as you go along.

[Gonzonzo]

1 hour ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

 

 

There is NO comparison to dropping a ball in the field of play and a returner in the endzone lobbing the ball to a ref.  Get real.

 

But the "common sense" said that Jackson is going to score and he never want to trow the ball until he scores, so this must be called a TD.

 

[Jauronimo]

2 minutes ago, Billl said:

I understand how someone could be confused by the way the automatic review process works. All scoring plays and plays resulting in turnovers are reviewed to confirm that they were, in fact, scores/turnovers.  Plays in which it was ruled that there was neither a score nor a turnover ARE NOT automatically reviewed to determine whether or not there should have been a score/turnover.  It's a little confusing.

 

That said, it's now been spelled out for you very clearly.  If you want to throw a tantrum, that's your right, but this is absolutely not an automatic review situation.

I would caveat: THIS specific play was not an automatic review because the head official changed the correct ruling on the field after a 5 minute conference with the backup officials, which is completely unprecedented.  And if this play were to have been reviewed the league office would have absolutely have been forced to judge per written rules rather than opine on the intent of the runner. 

 

Nope, nothing to see here!!!

[GoBills808]

2 minutes ago, 4_kidd_4 said:

Safety and Buffalo ball.

 

Period.

 

The worst part was the optics of the black clad “extra officials” running onto the field to intervene. 

 

Like, if you’re gonna hose us and also try to quash “tHe NfL iS FiXEd!!!” rhetoric, that was a reeeeeally bad way to go about both.  Buzz down from the booth and meet on the sidelines, not middle of the field. Bad look all around, especially when you’re essentially making spit up as you go along.

The huddling and legislating amongst replacement refs who probably aren't allowed to impact the game w/out an injury to one of the game officials was an underreported aspect of this situation.