Top 4 passing QB - No winning records

[Kirby Jackson]

11 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said:

I mean, you can argue it’s not good, but I provided the cold hard factual truth. You could argue that career passing attempts are associated with good QB’s because of course it is. You could argue career passing TD’s is also associated with good QB’s as well. But you can NOT argue that career 300 yard games IS NOT correlated with good QB’s and that it is NOT correlated with Super Bowl wins, because the numbers are the numbers.

So did I. See above 

[oldmanfan]

Those advocating for the importance of 300 yard games might want to consider looking at first half stats only, or stats where scores are within X amount between teams.  The biggest potential fly in the 300 yard ointment is the yards teams get in garbage time or when they are forced to only throw when far behind.  Thursday’s game was a good example; Dallas had to throw a lot to try and get back in the game.

Edited December 1, 2019 by oldmanfan

[Kirby Jackson]

Just now, oldmanfan said:

Those advocating for the importance of 300 yard games might want to consider looking at first half stats only, or stats where scores are with X amount between teams.  The biggest potential fly in the 300 yard ointment is the yards teams get in garbage time or when they are forced to only throw when far behind.  Thursday’s game was a good example; Dallas had to throw a lot to try and get back in the game.

This is a good point too. teams trailing are throwing.
 

I also think the bar needs to move from 300 to maybe 350 or 400. 20 years ago, 300 yards might have been the number but now that’s just a number that doesn’t have anything to do with wins and losses. Teams throw the ball more than ever. There are lots and lots of 300 yard games.  

[Billsfan1972]

17 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

This is a good point too. teams trailing are throwing.
 

I also think the bar needs to move from 300 to maybe 350 or 400. 20 years ago, 300 yards might have been the number but now that’s just a number that doesn’t have anything to do with wins and losses. Teams throw the ball more than ever. There are lots and lots of 300 yard games.  

Not by the Bills there are not......

[Kirby Jackson]

4 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Not by the Bills there are not......

...and it doesn’t matter. See above, you win 1/2 the games that you pass for 300 and lose the other half. Welcome to 2019 (or 2018) in the NFL. 
 

If you want something to look for with the Bills they are 11-0 or 11-1 (something like that) when Josh completes 60% of his passes. 

[oldmanfan]

5 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Not by the Bills there are not......

And the only reason you care is because you find it more entertaining, correct?

[LSHMEAB]

I think the shift has more to do with the majority of the top young QB's being dual threats than it does anything else.

 

Not sure how long it'll last, but that's the way this season is playing out at the position.

[oldmanfan]

1 minute ago, LSHMEAB said:

I think the shift has more to do with the majority of the top young QB's being dual threats than it does anything else.

 

Not sure how long it'll last, but that's the way this season is playing out at the position.

Good point

[BringBackOrton]

4 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

...and it doesn’t matter. See above, you win 1/2 the games that you pass for 300 and lose the other half. Welcome to 2019 (or 2018) in the NFL. 
 

If you want something to look for with the Bills they are 11-0 or 11-1 (something like that) when Josh completes 60% of his passes. 

That’s because some 300 yard passers are bums. 

 

We we can all agree a Brian Hoyer blowout loss 300 yard game is not the same as a Patrick Mahomes 300 yard double digit victory.

[Billsfan1972]

4 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

And the only reason you care is because you find it more entertaining, correct?

And if Allen threw for 300 yards vs. NE, Philly & Cleveland.....  They are probably 13-0.......?

 

Someone pointed out vs, Cleveland with they scored a TD that last drive & the last 35 yards in the air he would have thrown for 301 yards.....

 

Trubisky won a close game Thursday and it was due to him passing for 300 (and the last td drive and his passing accounting for it).

 

This is a  stupid argument as any one withany brains knows that the best QB's in the NFL all throw for 300 yards + consistently.....

[oldmanfan]

3 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said:

That’s because some 300 yard passers are bums. 

 

We we can all agree a Brian Hoyer blowout loss 300 yard game is not the same as a Patrick Mahomes 300 yard double digit victory.

Correct.  Which is why some discount the obsession some have with the Bills having a 300 yard passing day.

[Kirby Jackson]

7 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said:

That’s because some 300 yard passers are bums. 

 

We we can all agree a Brian Hoyer blowout loss 300 yard game is not the same as a Patrick Mahomes 300 yard double digit victory.

We can ABSOLUTELY agree on that. You are making my point. I don’t care if Allen ever passes for 300 yards if he wins. It means ZERO. People that are hung up on 300 yard games need to look at the numbers. Lamar Jackson & Josh Allen are 19-5 on the year. They have combined for 1 300 yard game. They’ve combined for 9 games under 200 yards. It just doesn’t matter. 
 

I’m only going to ever care about stats that matter in wins and losses.

Edited December 1, 2019 by Kirby Jackson

[oldmanfan]

1 minute ago, Billsfan1972 said:

And if Allen threw for 300 yards vs. NE, Philly & Cleveland.....  They are probably 13-0.......?

 

Someone pointed out vs, Cleveland with they scored a TD that last drive & the last 35 yards in the air he would have thrown for 301 yards.....

 

Trubisky won a close game Thursday and it was due to him passing for 300 (and the last td drive and his passing accounting for it).

 

This is a  stupid argument as any one withany brains knows that the best QB's in the NFL all throw for 300 yards + consistently.....

You did not answer the question.  The question is you want a 300 yard game because to you it’s entertaining.  Correct?

 

We lost the the Eagles because our D forgot how to play the run.  To the Browns because the D did not stop them where we were up with a few minutes left.  And who knows what happens with the Pats if Allen doesn’t get hurt.

 

Yiu have an obsession with this for some peculiar reason.

[Kirby Jackson]

5 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

And if Allen threw for 300 yards vs. NE, Philly & Cleveland.....  They are probably 13-0.......?

 

Someone pointed out vs, Cleveland with they scored a TD that last drive & the last 35 yards in the air he would have thrown for 301 yards.....

 

Trubisky won a close game Thursday and it was due to him passing for 300 (and the last td drive and his passing accounting for it).

 

This is a  stupid argument as any one withany brains knows that the best QB's in the NFL all throw for 300 yards + consistently.....

I’m not trying to be that guy but you are arguing facts with hypotheticals. The actual FACTS show that it doesn’t matter. 

[Billsfan1972]

2 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

You did not answer the question.  The question is you want a 300 yard game because to you it’s entertaining.  Correct?

 

We lost the the Eagles because our D forgot how to play the run.  To the Browns because the D did not stop them where we were up with a few minutes left.  And who knows what happens with the Pats if Allen doesn’t get hurt.

 

Yiu have an obsession with this for some peculiar reason.

No my obsession is with the offensive game planning of this team has for the most part and the concern is that until the last 3 games they were not very good on offense and too concerned with only field position & playing for a 17-13 result.

[BringBackOrton]

4 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

We can ABSOLUTELY agree on that. You are making my point. I don’t care if Allen ever passes for 300 yards if he wins. It means ZERO. People that are hung up on 300 yard games need to look at the numbers. Lamar Jackson & Josh Allen are 19-5 on the year. They have combined for 1 300 yard game. They’ve combined for 9 games under 200 yards. It just doesn’t matter. 
 

I’m only going to ever care about stats that matter in wins and losses.

And my contention would be that a lot of the all time great QB’s threw for 300 yards every now and then, and also won quite a bit. And that if I watched Josh Allen destroy a defense for 4 Q’s and threw for over 300 yards, that would be pretty cool.

[oldmanfan]

1 minute ago, Billsfan1972 said:

No my obsession is with the offensive game planning of this team has for the most part and the concern is that until the last 3 games they were not very good on offense and too concerned with only field position & playing for a 17-13 result.

Still don’t want to answer the question but that’s OK.

 

is it OK with you that their record is 9-3?

[Kirby Jackson]

4 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said:

And my contention would be that a lot of the all time great QB’s threw for 300 yards every now and then, and also won quite a bit. And that if I watched Josh Allen destroy a defense for 4 Q’s and threw for over 300 yards, that would be pretty cool.

Oh and I’m fine with that too. I’m not against him throwing for 300 yards by any stretch. I’d rather he throw for 105 like Lamar did today and win than 450 and lose. That’s been my point. If 300 yard passers won 70% of the time I’d probably care a lot more. It would be a good indicator of what it takes to win. 
 

I think we are actually kind of on the same page.

[oldmanfan]

1 minute ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Oh and I’m fine with that too. I’m not against him throwing for 300 yards by any stretch. I’d rather he throw for 105 like Lamar did today and win than 450 and lose. That’s been my point. If 300 yard passers won 70% of the time I’d probably care a lot more. It would be a good indicator of what it takes to win. 
 

I think we are actually kind of on the same page.

I don’t see any real argument against this.

[NoSaint]

4 hours ago, njbuff said:

Josh Allen MUST throw for 300 yards on a consistent basis or he sucks.

 

?

 

Give me an f'n break with that crap already.

I don’t think anyone’s argued he must consistently 

[Billsfan1972]

19 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Still don’t want to answer the question but that’s OK.

 

is it OK with you that their record is 9-3?

And you miss the point continually......  The last three weeks I've been very happy with the Offense.  I don't think they were that good or played an entertaining brand of football prior.

 

The Bills the frist two years under McD were 15-17 & blown out in a # of losses and still were incapable of putting up offensive stats.  They were ranked 29th 31st passing) & 30th (31st passing)......  I am happy with the strides they've mad & are 17th (24th passing) this year. 

 

I'll ask were you happy they were 31st the prior two years?  Is 24th okay with you?  

 

Do people en joy being much improved & still in the bottom 25%?

[MJS]

4 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

Yeah, this whole obsession with 300 yards is pretty silly. If Josh averaged 250 and 2 tds every week and we won I'd take that for the rest of his career.

That's 4,000 yards and 32 TD's a season. I think most teams would take that. Plus he'll have his rushing stats. Do that over a 15 year career and you're a top 10 passer all-time and punching a ticket to the hall of fame.

[Kirby Jackson]

11 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

And you miss the point continually......  The last three weeks I've been very happy with the Offense.  I don't think they were that good or played an entertaining brand of football prior.

 

The Bills the frist two years under McD were 15-17 & blown out in a # of losses and still were incapable of putting up offensive stats.  They were ranked 29th 31st passing) & 30th (31st passing)......  I am happy with the strides they've mad & are 17th (24th passing) this year. 

 

I'll ask were you happy they were 31st the prior two years?  Is 24th okay with you?  

 

Do people en joy being much improved & still in the bottom 25%?

This one is easy for me. If we are 9-3? Yep

[oldmanfan]

10 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

And you miss the point continually......  The last three weeks I've been very happy with the Offense.  I don't think they were that good or played an entertaining brand of football prior.

 

The Bills the frist two years under McD were 15-17 & blown out in a # of losses and still were incapable of putting up offensive stats.  They were ranked 29th 31st passing) & 30th (31st passing)......  I am happy with the strides they've mad & are 17th (24th passing) this year. 

 

I'll ask were you happy they were 31st the prior two years?  Is 24th okay with you?  

 

Do people en joy being much improved & still in the bottom 25%?

I don’t get caught up in such trivia.  I’m smart enough to know that winning is what matters and that teams win in different ways.  The prior two years were the prior two years with a new management team working on things.  I care about what’s going on right now - no sense living in the past.  And right now they look really good.

 

If Allen threw for 300 last eeek the only thing that would have changed is it would have quieted your obsession

[Billsfan1972]

16 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

I don’t get caught up in such trivia.  I’m smart enough to know that winning is what matters and that teams win in different ways.  The prior two years were the prior two years with a new management team working on things.  I care about what’s going on right now - no sense living in the past.  And right now they look really good.

 

If Allen threw for 300 last eeek the only thing that would have changed is it would have quieted your obsession

No my concern is the Defense is not as good as McD thinks it is (and many here).  Dallas moved the ball all game long & shot themselves in the foot (missed fgs, 4th down misses & turnovers). 

 

The offense though was humming, but could have been a closer game too.  

[Malazan]

2 hours ago, Billsfan1972 said:

No the point is the Bills have gone 45 games without one that to mean seems almost impossible to do, unless your coaching philosophy is so out of date......

 

BTW for those who haven't looked, the Bills are not 45-0 over those 45 games, which seems to be the argument that you don't need to throw for 300 by some posters here..... 

 

So you think they'd be 45-0 if they threw for 300 yards in all of those games? You replied to someone saying there is some nuance to stats because QBs throwing for over 300 yards are losing with "No, they're not 45-0"? 

 

Oh, you went and made it worse by saying the defense isn't as good as their stats. So now stats only require nuance in certain situations that fit your narrative. 

 

Maybe it's nap time?

Edited December 1, 2019 by jeremy2020

[Billsfan1972]

19 minutes ago, jeremy2020 said:

 

So you think they'd be 45-0 if they threw for 300 yards in all of those games? You replied to someone saying there is some nuance to stats because QBs throwing for over 300 yards are losing with "No, they're not 45-0"? 

 

Oh, you went and made it worse by saying the defense isn't as good as their stats. So now stats only require nuance in certain situations that fit your narrative. 

 

Maybe it's nap time?

The point is sometimes you need to throw for 300+ yards to win games.....  There are shootouts.....  Look today at Miami vs. Philadelphia as an example.  

 

The Bills are not so dominant on defense that a 300 yard passing game would not be a good thing every once in a while.  

 

The fact that in 2019 the only team not to throw for 300 outside Buffalo is Washington & in 2017 & 2018 Buffalo was the only team NOT TO DO IT.

 

Sorry that is embarrassing.....

 

Edited December 1, 2019 by Billsfan1972

[oldmanfan]

27 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

No my concern is the Defense is not as good as McD thinks it is (and many here).  Dallas moved the ball all game long & shot themselves in the foot (missed fgs, 4th down misses & turnovers). 

 

The offense though was humming, but could have been a closer game too.  

You do realize I hope that the 4th down failures and such had a lot to do with the defense. 

 

Talking about the Dallas offense actually disproves your main concerns.  Part of winning games in the NFL is taking teams out of what they do well.  Belichick is the GOAT based on this idea.  We forced Dallas to get away from pounding it in the ground with Zeke, and made Dak throw more than they wanted.  So he threw for over 300 AND THEY LOST.

 

i can’t believe you’re being this myopic about this.

[billsfan1959]

4 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

i can’t believe you’re being this myopic about this.

 

That really surprises you?

[Kirby Jackson]

14 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

The point is sometimes you need to throw for 300+ yards to win games.....  There are shootouts.....  Look today at Miami vs. Philadelphia as an example.  

 

The Bills are not so dominant on defense that a 300 yard passing game would not be a good thing every once in a while.  

 

The fact that in 2019 the only team not to throw for 300 outside Buffalo is Washington & in 2017 & 2018 Buffalo was the only team NOT TO DO IT.

 

Sorry that is embarrassing.....

 

2 QBs threw for 300 yards in the game. 1 of them won and 1 of them lost. 

[Billsfan1972]

Oldmanfan & others......  Goff has thrown for over 400 yards 5 minutes into the third quarter.....  Is that such a bad thing?

 

So tired about this..,..

 

Answer this one question.....

 

How the heck have the Bills gone 45 (since 2016) games without throwing for 300 (and no other team is close)????  

Edited December 1, 2019 by Billsfan1972

[Ethan in Cleveland]

7 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

You do realize I hope that the 4th down failures and such had a lot to do with the defense. 

 

Talking about the Dallas offense actually disproves your main concerns.  Part of winning games in the NFL is taking teams out of what they do well.  Belichick is the GOAT based on this idea.  We forced Dallas to get away from pounding it in the ground with Zeke, and made Dak throw more than they wanted.  So he threw for over 300 AND THEY LOST.

 

i can’t believe you’re being this myopic about this.

Yeah, I don't think we forced anything. I think Jason Garret crapped the bed and stopped running the ball for no good reason.

[Billsfan1972]

2 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

2 QBs threw for 300 yards in the game. 1 of them won and 1 of them lost. 

And would Miami have won without Fitz throwing for 300?  The answer is NO!!!!!

[Kirby Jackson]

Just now, Billsfan1972 said:

And would Miami have won without Fitz throwing for 300?  The answer is NO!!!!!

I don’t know!! You don’t either. The yards didn’t win the game. The scores did. 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

18 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

The point is sometimes you need to throw for 300+ yards to win games.....  There are shootouts.....  Look today at Miami vs. Philadelphia as an example.  

 

The Bills are not so dominant on defense that a 300 yard passing game would not be a good thing every once in a while.  

 

The fact that in 2019 the only team not to throw for 300 outside Buffalo is Washington & in 2017 & 2018 Buffalo was the only team NOT TO DO IT.

 

Sorry that is embarrassing.....

 

2017 Bills made the playoffs. 2019 Bills will make the playoffs.  The point is you don't need to thrown for 300 yards to win games.  You are just wrong.  There are all kinds of ways to win in the NFL. The surest way to win is to not turn the ball over.  Despite people on this board showing multiple examples of no correlation to pass yards and success you keep stating the same thing.  And this last example where both QB's in the same game throw for 300 and one wins and won loses is comical.

[oldmanfan]

14 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

And would Miami have won without Fitz throwing for 300?  The answer is NO!!!!!

Now you’re just being silly.

16 minutes ago, Ethan in Portland said:

Yeah, I don't think we forced anything. I think Jason Garret crapped the bed and stopped running the ball for no good reason.

Our balanced offense got the lead and forced their hand.  I agree they should have kept pounding Elliott earlier.

[Ethan in Cleveland]

2 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Now you’re just being silly.

Our balanced offense got the lead and forced their hand.  I agree they should have kept pounding Elliott earlier.

It was only a 9 point lead early in the third quarter. Garrett should lose his job for mishandling that team.  They have too much talent in a very weak division to be 6-6.

[oldmanfan]

1 minute ago, Ethan in Portland said:

It was only a 9 point lead early in the third quarter. Garrett should lose his job for mishandling that team.  They have too much talent in a very weak division to be 6-6.

I’m astounded he didn’t get canned Friday morning.

[section122]

3 hours ago, BringBackOrton said:

Good QB’s “have nothing to do with winning.” 

 

Interesting. Top 5 QBs in NFL history with the most 300 yards games have 10 Super Bowls between them. Extend it out to the top 20 in 300 yard games and you have 21 Super Bowl wins.

 

Is the lesson over?

 

 

Im not doing the math myself just using the numbers you gave.

 

Does that mean 32 super bowls have been won by guys outside of the top 20 for 300 yard games?

[HappyDays]

I'm not trying to get involved with this mess of a discussion, but I find this funny: