Daniel Jeremiah mock #3 (Hockenson to Bills)

[GunnerBill]

24 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

 

Very unpopular take for many on this board. I agree btw

 

I have said all the way through that this receiver class is deep but lacks true star power. DK has a high ceiling but many red flags. And Harry, AJ Brown and Marquise Brown look like good complimentary receivers rather than true #1s to me. It is not inconceivable to me that there could be as many as 5 or 6 different guys ranked as the top receiver on the 32 different boards. 

1 hour ago, Ittakestime said:

 

Both were coached by the same guy.  If the Giants get a Manning like career for Jones, I'm sure they would be thrilled.

 

Daniel Jones is NOT Eli Manning. He is just nowhere near as talented as Eli. 

[Augie]

50 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I do not think Metcalf is a lock for round 1. 

 

It hurts when you start dropping, and don’t have the ability to change direction.       ?

[frostbitmic]

1 hour ago, YoloinOhio said:

There were rumblings about some teams seeing him go in the 2nd earlier this week 

I can’t think of a more boring version of Eli than Daniel Jones

They're still running on the memories of Bill Parcells.

[WideNine]

5 hours ago, thebandit27 said:

He better catch 70+ passes for 1,000+ yards if they pick him in the top 10

 

And keep your QB off of the IR list and help Shady revive his career by opening running lanes.

 

More to being a great TE than JUST catching passes.

 

If the only measurement is receiving yards the team already has Foster, Brown, the CFL guy, WR draft or UFAs...

 

If the draft falls this way I am fine, if we have a shot at one of the blue chip defensive linemen I expect Beane will pull the right trigger.

 

As long as we get a player that can step in and help this team.

 

 

 

 

[thebandit27]

16 minutes ago, WideNine said:

 

And keep your QB off of the IR list and help Shady revive his career by opening running lanes.

 

More to being a great TE than JUST catching passes.

 

If the only measurement is receiving yards the team already has Foster, Brown, the CFL guy, WR draft or UFAs...

 

If the draft falls this way I am fine, if we have a shot at one of the blue chip defensive linemen I expect Beane will pull the right trigger.

 

As long as we get a player that can step in and help this team.

 

 

 

 

 

Why would we draft a TE to be a great blocker? Why not just draft a tackle and line Nsehke up as an extra TE? 

 

Positional value just isn't there IMO

[JM57]

6 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

 

Why would we draft a TE to be a great blocker? Why not just draft a tackle and line Nsehke up as an extra TE? 

 

Positional value just isn't there IMO

 

Why does it have to be one or the other? There are very few guys that are above average or better at all aspects of playing TE. Gronk was a REALLY good blocker. Did that stop him from catching passes? Kittle and Kelce both graded out very favorably in the blocking department in 2018. They both had over 1300 yards receiving. If you think that's the ceiling for Hockenson, then you have a rare talent and you take him. Even in the top 10. I don't know how anyone could have watched Gronk dump all over this team every time they played and NOT realize the value of an elite TE

[thebandit27]

2 minutes ago, JM57 said:

 

Why does it have to be one or the other? There are very few guys that are above average or better at all aspects of playing TE. Gronk was a REALLY good blocker. Did that stop him from catching passes? Kittle and Kelce both graded out very favorably in the blocking department in 2018. They both had over 1300 yards receiving. If you think that's the ceiling for Hockenson, then you have a rare talent and you take him. Even in the top 10. I don't know how anyone could have watched Gronk dump all over this team every time they played and NOT realize the value of an elite TE

 

Well, my very first post in this thread said that Hock needs to be a 70/1,000 guy to justify a top-10 pick, so I'd pull back a bit on saying that I don't see value in an elite TE.

 

My point is that so few TEs produce at that level anymore, and none of them have been first rounders for over a decade, so the chances that you're getting top-10 value from a TE pick are quite low.

[JM57]

46 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

 

Well, my very first post in this thread said that Hock needs to be a 70/1,000 guy to justify a top-10 pick, so I'd pull back a bit on saying that I don't see value in an elite TE.

 

My point is that so few TEs produce at that level anymore, and none of them have been first rounders for over a decade, so the chances that you're getting top-10 value from a TE pick are quite low.

My stupid phone has lost my reply twice now. I get where you're coming from. I just want every weapon in place to help Allen succeed. They took the high variance QB prospect and now they CANNOT let him fail. If it's Oliver vs Hockenson, give me Oliver.

 

I know the value of TE is suppressed but it's funny because when the prospect DOES hit their ceiling (Ertz, Kelce, Kittle, Gronk, etc) you look back at the guys that went ahead of them and see a lot of "mistakes."

 

It says something to me that even Gil Brandt has Hockenson in his top 10 rankings. Almost all of the established "draft guys" do. It's wild. There has to be something there.

Edited April 16, 2019 by JM57

[Nihilarian]

Like Gronkowski does for New England, that Tight End gave their already top passing offensive a new dimension that few teams could cover. Buffalo has never really had a player like that who could open up the middle of the field and make nightmare match ups for the linebackers to cover and also be a nightmare for the the smaller DBs attempting to tackle him. 

 

A really good TE gives the QB another option in not only the pass game but also in the run game with his blocking. This kid "ragdolls" DEs and LBers.

 

Catches... everything... thrown... his... way! This in itself would give the Bills something they haven't had in forever. 

 

 

[aristocrat]

I want kelce Kittle type production if we go hock. 

[Cornette's Commentary]

30 minutes ago, Nihilarian said:

Like Gronkowski does for New England, that Tight End gave their already top passing offensive a new dimension that few teams could cover. Buffalo has never really had a player like that who could open up the middle of the field and make nightmare match ups for the linebackers to cover and also be a nightmare for the the smaller DBs attempting to tackle him. 

 

A really good TE gives the QB another option in not only the pass game but also in the run game with his blocking. This kid "ragdolls" DEs and LBers.

 

Catches... everything... thrown... his... way! This in itself would give the Bills something they haven't had in forever. 

 

 

Jim Nantz:  Welcome back to Orchard Park where the Bills trail the New York Jets 35-21 here in the 4th.  Bills tight end TJ Hockenson has already caught two touchdowns, but the Bills front four just CANNOT get any pressure on Jets quarterback Sam Darnold.

Tony Romo: Without a doubt, Jim.  I mean, Darnold has had it easy all day, just standing clean in the pocket.  Also, Le'Veon Bell is just having his way with the Bills' defensive line.  He already has 195 yards rushing and we still have another quarter to go.  Also, Jordan Phillips, the man they were hoping could replace Kyle Williams, has been manhandled in the ground game and hasn't gotten close to Darnold.

Jim: I know the fans in Buffalo were excited about the offensive potential of TJ Hockenson, but you have to look back and wonder if either Rashan Gary or Montez Sweat would have been a better pick.

Edited April 17, 2019 by Cornette's Commentary

[thebandit27]

24 minutes ago, Cornette's Commentary said:

Jim Nantz:  Welcome back to Orchard Park where the Bills trail the New York Jets 35-21 here in the 4th.  Bills tight end TJ Hockenson has already caught two touchdowns, but the Bills front four just CANNOT get any pressure on Jets quarterback Sam Darnold.

Tony Romo: Without a doubt, Jim.  I mean, Darnold has had it easy all day, just standing clean in the pocket.  Also, Le'Veon Bell is just having his way with the Bills' defensive line.  He already has 195 yards rushing and we still have another quarter to go.  Also, Jordan Phillips, the man they were hoping could replace Kyle Williams, has been manhandled in the ground game and hasn't gotten close to Darnold.

Jim: I know the fans in Buffalo were excited about the offensive potential of TJ Hockenson, but you have to look back and wonder if either Rashan Gary or Montez Sweat would have been a better pick.

 

So let me get this straight: you're using the pretend conversation bit in this thread to whine that the team wouldn't be addressing the pass rush, and using the pretend conversation bit in the Frank Clark thread to whine that the team can't trade for a pass rusher?

 

From this, I can determine two things:

1) the bit isn't funny regardless of the subject matter 

2) you whine a lot 

[Cornette's Commentary]

2 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

 

So let me get this straight: you're using the pretend conversation bit in this thread to whine that the team wouldn't be addressing the pass rush, and using the pretend conversation bit in the Frank Clark thread to whine that the team can't trade for a pass rusher?

 

From this, I can determine two things:

1) the bit isn't funny regardless of the subject matter 

2) you whine a lot 

They're not getting Frank Clark and they're not getting Clowney.  Full stop.  People need to wake up and accept it.

[Logic]

38 minutes ago, Cornette's Commentary said:

Jim Nantz:  Welcome back to Orchard Park where the Bills trail the New York Jets 35-21 here in the 4th.  Bills tight end TJ Hockenson has already caught two touchdowns, but the Bills front four just CANNOT get any pressure on Jets quarterback Sam Darnold.

Tony Romo: Without a doubt, Jim.  I mean, Darnold has had it easy all day, just standing clean in the pocket.  Also, Le'Veon Bell is just having his way with the Bills' defensive line.  He already has 195 yards rushing and we still have another quarter to go.  Also, Jordan Phillips, the man they were hoping could replace Kyle Williams, has been manhandled in the ground game and hasn't gotten close to Darnold.

Jim: I know the fans in Buffalo were excited about the offensive potential of TJ Hockenson, but you have to look back and wonder if either Rashan Gary or Montez Sweat would have been a better pick.

I'll say it again: You can play this game BOTH ways.

Jim Nantz: Welcome back to Orchard Park where the Bills have held the mighty Patriots offense to just 13 points entering the 4th quarter. Unfortunately, the Bills offense hasn't been able to match the performance of their defense, as the Patriots' outstanding trio of cornerbacks has shut down Buffalo's passing attack almost completely, holding the Bills to just 3 points on the day. 

Tony Romo: Without a doubt, Jim. It's a shame, because with the attention that the New England defense has been paying to shutting down the outside receivers, there has been a lot of open space over the middle and in the seams, but Tyler Kroft, with his limited athleticism, just cannot seem to take advantage of it.

Jim: I know fans in Buffalo love their defense and were excited to see a pass rusher added in the 1st round, but you have to look back and wonder if a truly dominant tight end would have unlocked the potential of Brain Daboll's offense. Instead, a familiar sight for Bills fans, as another stellar defensive performance is wasted by a lackluster Bills offense's inability to score points.

Edited April 17, 2019 by Logic

[WideNine]

22 hours ago, JM57 said:

 

Why does it have to be one or the other? There are very few guys that are above average or better at all aspects of playing TE. Gronk was a REALLY good blocker. Did that stop him from catching passes? Kittle and Kelce both graded out very favorably in the blocking department in 2018. They both had over 1300 yards receiving. If you think that's the ceiling for Hockenson, then you have a rare talent and you take him. Even in the top 10. I don't know how anyone could have watched Gronk dump all over this team every time they played and NOT realize the value of an elite TE

 

This.

 

If he has that ceiling and is that 3-down TE that Daboll can use in a variety of personnel packages blocking and catching then it is decent value for that pick, and it is not "the end" if the Bills go in that direction. Probably a moot point because I don't think the Bills have spoken to Hockenson and I don't see them spending their 1st round pick on anyone they have not interviewed and gotten to know better.

 

Still don't mind arguing the merits, but I think the smart money is on DT Oliver.

 

 

Edited April 17, 2019 by WideNine

[aristocrat]

1 minute ago, Logic said:

I'll say it again: You can play this game BOTH ways.

Jim Nantz: Welcome back to Orchard Park where the Bills have held the mighty Patriots offense to just 13 points entering the 4th quarter. Unfortunately, the Bills offense hasn't been able to match the performance of their defense, as the Patriots' outstanding trio of cornerbacks has shut down Buffalo's passing attack almost completely, holding the Bills to just 3 points on the day. 

Tony Romo: Without a doubt, Jim. It's a shame, because with the attention that the New England defense has been paying to shutting down the outside receivers, there has been a lot of open space over the middle and in the seams, but Tyler Kroft, with his limited athleticism, just cannot seem to take advantage of it.

Jim: I know fans in Buffalo love their defense and were excited to see a pass rusher added in the 1st round, but you have to look back and wonder if a truly dominant tight end would have unlocked the potential of Brain Daboll's offense. Instead, a familiar sight for Bills fans, as another stellar defensive performance is wasted by a lackluster Bills offense's inability to score points.

 

And didn’t that literally happen in the Monday night game? 

[Cornette's Commentary]

3 minutes ago, Logic said:

I'll say it again: You can play this game BOTH ways.

Jim Nantz: Welcome back to Orchard Park where the Bills have held the mighty Patriots offense to just 13 points entering the 4th quarter. Unfortunately, the Bills offense hasn't been able to match the performance of their defense, as the Patriots' outstanding trio of cornerbacks has shut down Buffalo's passing attack almost completely, holding the Bills to just 3 points on the day. 

Tony Romo: Without a doubt, Jim. It's a shame, because with the attention that the New England defense has been paying to shutting down the outside receivers, there has been a lot of open space over the middle and in the seams, but Tyler Kroft, with his limited athleticism, just cannot seem to take advantage of it.

Jim: I know fans in Buffalo love their defense and were excited to see a pass rusher added in the 1st round, but you have to look back and wonder if a truly dominant tight end would have unlocked the potential of Brain Daboll's offense. Instead, a familiar sight for Bills fans, as another stellar defensive performance is wasted by a lackluster Bills offense's inability to score points.

[Logic]

14 minutes ago, Cornette's Commentary said:

[Cornette's Commentary]

21 minutes ago, aristocrat said:

 

And didn’t that literally happen in the Monday night game? 

It happened because Derek Anderson was the QB that night.  Having a TE like Hockenson  for him to throw to wouldn't have changed the outcome.

[aristocrat]

9 minutes ago, Cornette's Commentary said:

It happened because Derek Anderson was the QB that night.  Having a TE like Hockenson  for him to throw to wouldn't have changed the outcome.

 

But our defense did hold the pats to 12 points in three quarters right? Did you want the defense to hold them to less points l?

Edited April 17, 2019 by aristocrat

[Cornette's Commentary]

11 minutes ago, aristocrat said:

 

But our defense did hold the pats to 12 points in three quarters right? Did you want the defense to hold them to less points l?

I want someone to convince me that taking a tight end at 9 will take this team from 6 wins to 11 or 12 wins.  That's all.

Edited April 17, 2019 by Cornette's Commentary

[aristocrat]

Just now, Cornette's Commentary said:

I want someone to convince me that having an elite tight end will take this team from 6 wins to 11 or 12 wins.  That's all.

 

A d tackle doesn’t give you five wins either. What you should be looking for is the guy who gets us that extra 1-2 games. The only guy giving you 6 more wins is a qb.  

[billspro]

1 hour ago, aristocrat said:

I want kelce Kittle type production if we go hock. 

 

You will get it if we draft Hock, instant fan favorite. 

7 minutes ago, Cornette's Commentary said:

I want someone to convince me that having an elite tight end will take this team from 6 wins to 11 or 12 wins.  That's all.

 

I don’t think you can win a Super Bowl without a top ten TE. An elite TE will bring you closer to becoming a dominant team than an elite DT (minus Aaron Donald).

25 minutes ago, Cornette's Commentary said:

It happened because Derek Anderson was the QB that night.  Having a TE like Hockenson  for him to throw to wouldn't have changed the outcome.

 

It might have if he caught that TD in the 4th quarter before the pick six.

[billspro]

1 hour ago, Cornette's Commentary said:

Jim Nantz:  Welcome back to Orchard Park where the Bills trail the New York Jets 35-21 here in the 4th.  Bills tight end TJ Hockenson has already caught two touchdowns, but the Bills front four just CANNOT get any pressure on Jets quarterback Sam Darnold.

Tony Romo: Without a doubt, Jim.  I mean, Darnold has had it easy all day, just standing clean in the pocket.  Also, Le'Veon Bell is just having his way with the Bills' defensive line.  He already has 195 yards rushing and we still have another quarter to go.  Also, Jordan Phillips, the man they were hoping could replace Kyle Williams, has been manhandled in the ground game and hasn't gotten close to Darnold.

Jim: I know the fans in Buffalo were excited about the offensive potential of TJ Hockenson, but you have to look back and wonder if either Rashan Gary or Montez Sweat would have been a better pick.

 

Did you not watch this defence last year? Sweat or Gary are not going to be the difference between this being a good or bad defence. Those guys are rotational guys in year 1.

[Cornette's Commentary]

9 minutes ago, billspro said:

 

You will get it if we draft Hock, instant fan favorite. 

 

I don’t think you can win a Super Bowl without a top ten TE. An elite TE will bring you closer to becoming a dominant team than an elite DT (minus Aaron Donald).

Here is a list of tight ends taken in the 1st round since 2009.  How many of these TEs helped their teams win 4 or 5 more games than the previous year?

- Brandon Pettigrew
- Jermaine Gresham
- Tyler Eifert
- Eric Ebron
- OJ Howard
- Evan Engram
- Hayden Hurst

 

 

1 minute ago, billspro said:

 

Did you not watch this defence last year? Sweat or Gary are not going to be the difference between this being a good or bad defence. Those guys are rotational guys in year 1.

Did you watch the pass rush, or lack thereof?  26th in sacks.

Edited April 17, 2019 by Cornette's Commentary

[billspro]

Just now, Cornette's Commentary said:

Here is a list of tight ends taken in the 1st round since 2009.  Excluding Hayden Hurst, how many of these TEs helped their teams win 4 or 5 more games than the previous year?

- Brandon Pettigrew
- Jermaine Gresham
- Tyler Eifert
- Eric Ebron
- OJ Howard
- Evan Engram
- Hayden Hurst

 

None of them are as good of a prospect as Hockenson. The only one that would grade close would be OJ Howard and he was pretty legit before getting injured last year. I think Hockenson is a top 10 TE in year one and a top 5 TE in year 2.

[Rocket94]

Yes you guys. I truly believe that Edmunds would flourish on the outside. White would be in the middle and sideline to sideline. If White is there, I would not pass him up. In late round one or round two, several DT's should be available. Then we have the potential Frank Clark acquisition. I will believe that when I see it.

[Cornette's Commentary]

2 minutes ago, Rocket94 said:

Yes you guys. I truly believe that Edmunds would flourish on the outside. White would be in the middle and sideline to sideline. If White is there, I would not pass him up. In late round one or round two, several DT's should be available. Then we have the potential Frank Clark acquisition. I will believe that when I see it.

You mean the, "never going to happen/in your dreams" Frank Clark acquisition.

[Nihilarian]

2 minutes ago, Cornette's Commentary said:

Here is a list of tight ends taken in the 1st round since 2009.  Excluding Hayden Hurst, how many of these TEs helped their teams win 4 or 5 more games than the previous year?

- Brandon Pettigrew
- Jermaine Gresham
- Tyler Eifert
- Eric Ebron
- OJ Howard
- Evan Engram
- Hayden Hurst

 

Did you watch the pass rush, or lack thereof?  26th in sacks.

None of those players were ranked top 10 picks. 

 

Like i said in an earlier post in this thread, the 2014 Buffalo Bills had the #4 overall defense and were #1 in sacks, pass rush, QB hurries. They didn't even make the playoffs that season.

 

The few things the Buffalo Bills haven't done in two decades is build a dominant offensive line and and find a franchise QB. This GM might have found the QB and started building the line.

 

 The one thing they have never had is an elite tight end like a Gronk, an Ertz, a Kelce. 

[rayray808]

if no WR in the first round is true, we better move up in the late first and grab one... similar to us grabbing Tremaine Edmunds last year, and according to his 4.0 draft from that year roughly around the same spot

[GunnerBill]

4 hours ago, billspro said:

 

None of them are as good of a prospect as Hockenson. The only one that would grade close would be OJ Howard and he was pretty legit before getting injured last year. I think Hockenson is a top 10 TE in year one and a top 5 TE in year 2.

 

I had a higher grade on OJ Howard (and I didn't absolutely love Howard either) than I do on Hock. I think his receiving ability is being a little overestimated. To me he is a good, all round, tight end prospect. I don't see the elite game breaker there though that others do. 

[transplantbillsfan]

8 hours ago, thebandit27 said:

 

Well, my very first post in this thread said that Hock needs to be a 70/1,000 guy to justify a top-10 pick, so I'd pull back a bit on saying that I don't see value in an elite TE.

 

My point is that so few TEs produce at that level anymore, and none of them have been first rounders for over a decade, so the chances that you're getting top-10 value from a TE pick are quite low.

 

How many 1,000 yard seasons have there been for Tight Ends in the history of the NFL?

[billsredneck1]

7 hours ago, Cornette's Commentary said:

Brandon Pettigrew
- Jermaine Gresham
- Tyler Eifert
- Eric Ebron
- OJ Howard
- Evan Engram
- Hayden Hurst

wasn't there a big faction pounding the table for o.j. howard @ what...our no.10? heck, i don't even know who he plays for. tampa?

[thebandit27]

9 hours ago, Cornette's Commentary said:

They're not getting Frank Clark and they're not getting Clowney.  Full stop.  People need to wake up and accept it.

 

Why not?

 

 I mean, I don't think it happens either, but the sweeping declaration opens you up to looking quite foolish if it happens 

2 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

How many 1,000 yard seasons have there been for Tight Ends in the history of the NFL?

 

Very few...and that's the point: why would you spend s top-10 pick on a position that doesn't produce much offensively?

[YoloinOhio]

3 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I had a higher grade on OJ Howard (and I didn't absolutely love Howard either) than I do on Hock. I think his receiving ability is being a little overestimated. To me he is a good, all round, tight end prospect. I don't see the elite game breaker there though that others do. 

He has gotten a huge lift from the media since the season ended. Good player, but I feel like he jumped into the overrated category with the offseason hype. 

[JM57]

6 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

How many 1,000 yard seasons have there been for Tight Ends in the history of the NFL?

http://pfref.com/tiny/9WUg2

 

45. 21 of them since 2009 (last 10 seasons), 24 of them between 1961 (Ditka) and 2008.

[Iamkrgr]

I like the idea of Hockenson but I just don't think I'd be able to pass up on one of the pass rushers at 9. I think the better play is to see if there is a TE available at 40 that you like and grade accordingly. Irv Smith is someone that could be there. 

Edited April 17, 2019 by Iamkrgr

[WideNine]

34 minutes ago, Iamkrgr said:

I like the idea of Hockenson but I just don't think I'd be able to pass up on one of the pass rushers at 9. I think the better play is to see if there is a TE available at 40 that you like and grade accordingly. Irv Smith is someone that could be there. 

 

If they pass on Hock, Irv Smith is not the answer at 6' 2".

 

My next target with the most upside IMO would be Josh Oliver from San Jose St.

 

Big kid, great measurables from the combine, biggest hands of the class, and you don't hear things like "loses focus, or inconsistent" when it comes to his catching ability like you hear with some of the other prospects.

 

Like most of the later round TE prospects there will be more coaching up needed around refining blocking and routes, but that is to be expected.

[Cornette's Commentary]

8 minutes ago, WideNine said:

 

If they pass on Hock, Irv Smith is not the answer at 6' 2".

 

My next target with the most upside IMO would be Josh Oliver from San Jose St.

 

Big kid, great measurables from the combine, biggest hands of the class, and you don't hear things like "loses focus, or inconsistent" when it comes to his catching ability like you hear with some of the other prospects.

 

Like most of the later round TE prospects there will be more coaching up needed around refining blocking and routes, but that is to be expected.

Kahale Warring (6'5", 252) or Jace Sternberger (6'4" 251) could be options between the 3rd and the 5th.

They've had a private visit with Sternberger.

[YoloinOhio]

43 minutes ago, WideNine said:

 

If they pass on Hock, Irv Smith is not the answer at 6' 2".

 

My next target with the most upside IMO would be Josh Oliver from San Jose St.

 

Big kid, great measurables from the combine, biggest hands of the class, and you don't hear things like "loses focus, or inconsistent" when it comes to his catching ability like you hear with some of the other prospects.

 

Like most of the later round TE prospects there will be more coaching up needed around refining blocking and routes, but that is to be expected.

I actually love Irv Smith in this offense because he can be used at big WR, TE, red zone, hback, and an excellent blocker. We have three taller TEs behind him, he’s more of an offensive weapon