Is DT Gerald McCoy done in Tampa?

[LABILLBACKER]

It will boil down to whether they think McCoy can play to 13M/yr. Or settle for Phillips & Phillips and draft a DT(Lawrence) in April. Star will need help.....

[BADOLBILZ]

8 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

Salty Anger sounds like an teenage emo band name.

 

Not really, no.

 

We know you love Teef dude.

 

I'm sure Howie Mandell loved George Carlin too...........but c'mon man.............you get nothing to hit after Teef's been up...........you are batting below the Mendoza-line on those.

 

Stick with them free-range gifs.    That's your rubber glove.✌️

[BADOLBILZ]

33 minutes ago, Logic said:

Are you serious with this garbage? Beane overpaid for McCarron? REALLY?! And Bodine, too? Absolute nonsense. Furthermore, he later TRADED McCarron and Newhouse to other teams for draft picks. What a waste their signings were ?

As for sending the Browns a 7th round pick for a former 1st round WR when the Bills were desperate for WR help and speed on the outside...are you REALLY gonna fault him for taking that swing?

Seriously, you're trying too hard with the Beane hate. 

And then you have the nerve to end with the two sentences you ended with? If you're gonna be a big richard, take your own advice and "try to get some facts right at least".

 

 

 

Beane himself was highly disappointed with the McCarron signing........."he wasn't who we thought he was"..........so yes........$5M for a guy who so underperformed that Nate Peterman ends up beating him out is ABSOLUTELY an overpay.

 

And btw it's not Beane hate..........it's the McBeane reality..........they didn't get good value in free agency last year...........it's hard to deny that but then we have people like @ProcessAccepted claiming that Beane has an ever growing track record of only getting bargains and you come barking behind him with more nonsense.

 

As I always say..........get the guys at high $ positions in the early rounds of the draft..........don't draft your run stuffers or RB's or safeties or guards/centers early........you can always overpay for them in FA and come out fine so long as you have your expensive positions covered with home grown talent.

 

So I'm not even necessarily EXPECTING Beane to get great value in FA..........he's probably going to have to continue to over pay...........but we don't have to pretend that things like paying Star Lotulelei $1M per tackle and then watching Jordan Poyer wear himself out tackling RB's was money well spent.........it wasn't.  

 

Edited January 31, 2019 by BADOLBILZ

[LSHMEAB]

Just now, BUFFALOBART said:

McCarron = $4M for a 5th round 2019 draft pick.......

I actually see that as a positive considering I'm not writing the checks. It's basically a 5th round pick for nothing(other than Terry's money).

[BADOLBILZ]

13 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

I actually see that as a positive considering I'm not writing the checks. It's basically a 5th round pick for nothing(other than Terry's money).

 

 

I like picking up 5th rounders but I also can't unsee the first two months of last season where McCarron was supposed to be the QB and instead the Bills were slaughtered repeatedly and the competitive portion of their season ended.

 

But the discussion you are joining wasn't about trade value.

 

@ProcessAccepted's narrative was that Beane just signs players who outperform their pay............which, as any reasonable Bills fan knows by now,  is FAR from correct.

 

[LSHMEAB]

1 minute ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

I like picking up 5th rounders but I also can't unsee the first two months of last season where McCarron was supposed to be the QB and instead the Bills were slaughtered repeatedly and the competitive portion of their season ended.

 

But the discussion you are joining wasn't about trade value.

 

@ProcessAccepted's narrative was that Beane just signs players who outperform their pay............which, as any reasonable Bills fan knows by now,  is FAR from correct.

 

Admittedly skimmed through the thread and was just looking at that particular transaction in isolation. Their handling of the QB position was beyond awful.

[LSHMEAB]

4 minutes ago, BUFFALOBART said:

Ask Terry how he feels about that. The draft is a gamble. Imagine gambling your boss's $$$$ to the tune of $5M for a yet unknown prospect.....

I get it, but like I said, it's not my money. 4 mil isn't gonna affect Terry's lifestyle. Strictly from a Bills standpoint, they got a pick for nothing but cash. Little to no impact on the cap. The guy writing the checks? Yeah, it probably stings.

 

Will never defend the way they handled the QB situation in 2018. Atrocious.

Edited January 31, 2019 by LSHMEAB

[HappyDays]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

but we don't have to pretend that things like paying Star Lotulelei $1M per tackle and then watching Jordan Poyer wear himself out tackling RB's was money well spent.........it wasn't.  

 

Yeah this is why people don't take you seriously. How far do you have to stretch to criticize Poyer's contract?

[Logic]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

So I'm not even necessarily EXPECTING Beane to get great value in FA..........he's probably going to have to continue to over pay...........but we don't have to pretend that things like paying Star Lotulelei $1M per tackle and then watching Jordan Poyer wear himself out tackling RB's was money well spent.........it wasn't.  

 

That's funny. I could've sworn the Bills had the number one passing defense and number two overall defense in the entire league. Not "money well spent"? I completely disagree.

As to McCarron being a waste of money: He netted a 5th round pick. Previous mid-late round draft picks by Beane have included bright young stars Matt Milano and Taron Johnson. So...if the 5th round pick we got for McCarron ends up turning into a quality player in the draft, I expect you to own up to that fact and admit that it wound up being a net gain for the BIlls. Oh wait, no I don't.

[RPbillsfan]

1 hour ago, BUFFALOBART said:

McCarron = $4M for a 5th round 2019 draft pick.......

Let's see Matt Milano and Wyatt Teller were 5th round picks.  Your point is outstanding.  I'd pay 4 Million in a heartbeat to get those type of results.

[LSHMEAB]

14 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Yeah this is why people don't take you seriously. How far do you have to stretch to criticize Poyer's contract?

It was an exaggeration, but people make a lot of excuses for Star based on what they're told by the Bills and a few nice comments by teammates. Lorax is a process guy so of course he's gonna give a shoutout to the Bills prized 2018 FA. Star has regressed quite a bit from his early days and that's reflected in his poor PFF grade. He didn't make a ton of plays early in his career, but he was graded much higher because he was more effective. It wasn't a very good signing.

[BADOLBILZ]

5 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Yeah this is why people don't take you seriously. How far do you have to stretch to criticize Poyer's contract?

 

 

What in the ***** are you talking about??

 

Am I somehow stretching in saying that Lotulelei was overpaid for his work in 2018?    Isn't he still generally considered to have been one of the most overpaid FA's?

 

Poyer was a great value find...........but that's irrelevant........that signing was long before Beane.

 

My point in mentioning Poyer was that he was having to make far too many tackles in the run game.    Some of that was on the LB's but Star was absolutely no "star".

 

You are obviously late to the discussion but the topic here is the assertion by @ProcessAccepted that Beane just signs players who outperform their pay..........which again.........is so clearly not true.     Do you disagree?   If show site all of the examples otherwise.

 

 The vast majority of his FA acquisitions last offseason were poor values.

 

   

[HappyDays]

1 minute ago, LSHMEAB said:

It was an exaggeration, but people make a lot of excuses for Star based on what they're told by the Bills and a few nice comments by teammates. Lorax is a process guy so of course he's gonna give a shoutout to the Bills prized 2018 FA. Star has regressed quite a bit from his early days and that's reflected in his poor PFF grade. He didn't make a ton of plays early in his career, but he was graded much higher because he was more effective. It wasn't a very good signing.

 

None of this has anything to do with him criticizing Poyer's contract. That's just nonsense. I get that there are Bills homers, but some posters do the opposite thing where they criticize every move we make past the point of reason.

 

And I don't care about PFF grades. I'm biased because I wanted Star well before we signed him, but he's doing exactly what we brought him here to do. Our run defense went from worst in the league to slightly above average and he was the only change we made on the defensive line to make that happen. Yeah we overpaid him somewhat. That's what free agency is. Pretty much everyone gets overpaid when they switch teams. You have to pick your shots, and I'll take a big jump for the run defense for a couple extra million per year. On the whole they have managed the cap space very well.

[BADOLBILZ]

7 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

It was an exaggeration, but people make a lot of excuses for Star based on what they're told by the Bills and a few nice comments by teammates. Lorax is a process guy so of course he's gonna give a shoutout to the Bills prized 2018 FA. Star has regressed quite a bit from his early days and that's reflected in his poor PFF grade. He didn't make a ton of plays early in his career, but he was graded much higher because he was more effective. It wasn't a very good signing.

 

 

I'm far from criticizing Poyer.........he was probably the Bills best defender in 2018.

 

It was not a good group of free agents..........you can throw Ivory in there as well.

 

I don't think they will cut Star THIS offseason(next for sure) but I wouldn't be surprised if he is the only one of that entire Beane 2018 class of previous NFL starter-type UFA's that they signed(Star,Murphy, Vontae, Bodine, McCarron, Newhouse, Ivory) who is even still with the team in 2019.........that's about as bad of a free agent haul as you can have.

 

Maybe the worst FA class of any real size that the Bills have had since that dreadful attempt by Dick Jauron and Marv Levy to replicate the Patriot way where they signed 15 guys and the top producer of the bunch turned out to be Robert Royal.?

7 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

None of this has anything to do with him criticizing Poyer's contract. That's just nonsense. 

 

 

You can't read.

 

What you are saying is a total fabrication.

 

Utter stupidity on your part.

 

 

[LSHMEAB]

Just now, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

I'm far from criticizing Poyer.........he was probably the Bills best defender in 2018.

 

It was not a good group of free agents..........you can throw Ivory in there as well.

 

I don't think they will cut Star THIS offseason(next for sure) but I wouldn't be surprised if he is the only one of that entire Beane 2018 class of previous NFL starter-type UFA's that they signed(Star,Murphy, Vontae, Bodine, McCarron, Newhouse, Ivory) who is even still with the team in 2019.........that's about as bad of a free agent haul as you can have.

 

Maybe the worst FA class of any real size that the Bills have had since that dreadful attempt by Dick Jauron and Marv Levy to replicate the Patriot way where they signed 15 guys and the top producer of the bunch turned out to be Robert Royal.?

Oh I know. I kind of respect some of the mental gymnastics people engage in to defend Star, but it's way off base IMO. The run defense was AWFUL for a 3 game stretch after Dareus was cut, so the improvement isn't nearly as impressive as it's made out to be. I've said my piece on Star. I think it was an awful signing. Poyer was an EXCELLENT signing by the last dude or perhaps McDermott. Not quite sure who was responsible, but it was great.

[BADOLBILZ]

13 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

I like Teller, but he struggled terribly in some games. 

 

No idea what he is yet.

 

 

He started out well......his first game he was a noticeable upgrade.......but then he struggled to the finish.........particularly trying to move people in the run game.

 

Ike Boettger is raw but seems to have more potential as a people mover.

 

I'd be cool with those two competing for one of the guard spots.

[3rdand12]

22 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

I like Teller, but he struggled terribly in some games. 

 

No idea what he is yet.

fair

[HappyDays]

24 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

My point in mentioning Poyer was that he was having to make far too many tackles in the run game.    Some of that was on the LB's but Star was absolutely no "star".

 

So you weren't criticizing Poyer, you were making a convoluted point about Star when you said Poyer struggled to tackle RBs? Alright, my bad I guess.

[BADOLBILZ]

5 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

Oh I know. I kind of respect some of the mental gymnastics people engage in to defend Star, but it's way off base IMO. The run defense was AWFUL for a 3 game stretch after Dareus was cut, so the improvement isn't nearly as impressive as it's made out to be. I've said my piece on Star. I think it was an awful signing. Poyer was an EXCELLENT signing by the last dude or perhaps McDermott. Not quite sure who was responsible, but it was great.

 

 

The Poyer signing was at the recommendation of Bob Babich Jr(props to @Rico)..........not his dad Bob Babich Sr.(as incorrectly posited by yoloinohio).  

 

A lot of McDermott's moves as the de facto GM in 2017 were based on advice from people he knew or recently hired(like Phil McGeoghan recommending his former pupil Zay Jones)............not so much the opinions of the Bills scouting staff who for some reason he and The Pegs clutched too rather than just hiring Beane to be the GM for the entire offseason.

[3rdand12]

5 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

He started out well......his first game he was a noticeable upgrade.......but then he struggled to the finish.........particularly trying to move people in the run game.

 

Ike Boettger is raw but seems to have more potential as a people mover.

 

I'd be cool with those two competing for one of the guard spots.

you a fan of bringing Dawkins inside? I see folks point.

 But i would rather leave him at tackle. add a FA guard and center if viable. Draft Guard and Tackles both if BPa allows

[Logic]

Imagine rating the impact of a 1T like Star Lotulelei based on number of tackles.

Sheesh.

[BADOLBILZ]

1 minute ago, HappyDays said:

 

So you weren't criticizing Poyer, you were making a convoluted point about Star when you said Poyer struggled to tackle RBs? Alright, my bad I guess.

 

 

I didn't say Poyer struggled to tackle RB's either...........he was simply given a massive workload in the run game due to poor work in the front 7.    

 

Definitely your bad.......100%.

 

But show me all the value in that free agent class smartazz...............it's ok to jump on me for ONE player you mistakenly think I am criticizing but you take objection when I point out that a very poor FA class was very poor?

 

Mmmkay.

 

That's why I don't take YOU seriously, Cunningham.

 

 

[HappyDays]

11 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

The run defense was AWFUL for a 3 game stretch after Dareus was cut, so the improvement isn't nearly as impressive as it's made out to be

 

This is classic cherry picking. Sure if we remove the 3 worst games our run defense had in 2017, suddenly the improvement doesn't look as good. Are we allowed to do the same thing for 2018? Can we eliminate the games where Edmunds looked way in over his head?

 

Slice it however you want. We went from 29th in total rush yards to 16th, 23rd in rush YPA to 9th, and 30th in rush defense DVOA to 14th. What caused that improvement in your opinion? You think a 3 game stretch in a 16 game season had that much of an effect? I would argue that Edmunds in his rookie season was significantly worse against the run than Preston Brown. And nothing else on our defense changed except the addition of Star. Seems to me like he did his job. It doesn't mean he's elite. He holds gaps and keeps the opponent's rush in check. It was not an awful signing by any stretch of the imagination.

[LSHMEAB]

6 minutes ago, Logic said:

Imagine rating the impact of a 1T like Star Lotulelei based on number of tackles.

Sheesh.

PFF does no such thing. He graded out well in his early years without putting up bigtime stats(although he did make a COUPLE of plays a season.) He graded out as below average in 2018.

[BADOLBILZ]

6 minutes ago, 3rdand12 said:

you a fan of bringing Dawkins inside? I see folks point.

 But i would rather leave him at tackle. add a FA guard and center if viable. Draft Guard and Tackles both if BPa allows

 

 

Yeah I would love Dawkins at LG.

 

He's going to be a value problem at LT...........he's not likely to be good enough to be outright worth that $15M+ deal when he hits FA..........and that's why he'd probably hit UFA if they don't move him to LG now when they have the opportunity when he is coming off a down year.

 

I think he could be an All Pro LG.........that ain't a cheap proposition in FA but the TOP of that market is $13M right now so probably $25M less on a 5 year deal..........and if you decide to pass you just have to replace a guard, not a LT.

 

That means they have to find a LT but you can justify drafting a LT in the first two rounds because of the positional value......... or you can try to jump on Trent Brown in FA.

[LSHMEAB]

1 minute ago, HappyDays said:

 

This is classic cherry picking. Sure if we remove the 3 worst games our run defense had in 2017, suddenly the improvement doesn't look as good. Are we allowed to do the same thing for 2018? Can we eliminate the games where Edmunds looked way in over his head?

 

Slice it however you want. We went from 29th in total rush yards to 16th, 23rd in rush YPA to 9th, and 30th in rush defense DVOA to 14th. What caused that improvement in your opinion? You think a 3 game stretch in a 16 game season had that much of an effect? I would argue that Edmunds in his rookie season was significantly worse against the run than Preston Brown. And nothing else on our defense changed except the addition of Star. Seems to me like he did his job. It doesn't mean he's elite. He holds gaps and keeps the opponent's rush in check. It was not an awful signing by any stretch of the imagination.

How can I argue such a point? Maybe everyone was on the same page as it was McDermott's second year. Johnson at slot corner was a terrific tackler. Milano grew by leaps and bounds. If we're gonna judge an entire unit based on one guy, we got GASHED up and down without Milano against the Pats. I don't think Star does much of anything, but it's damn near impossible to debate the merits of a guy who isn't necessarily supposed to make plays. You would think he could make a FEW. 

[BADOLBILZ]

4 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

PFF does no such thing. He graded out well in his early years without putting up bigtime stats(although he did make a COUPLE of plays a season.) He graded out as below average in 2018.

 

Even on his 2017 production he was viewed as grossly overpaid.

 

But then last year the guy tumbled to significant career low points of 17 tackles with ZERO sacks and ZERO QB hits..............he literally fell off the map entirely as a playmaker of any kind.

 

They signed him out of desperation after the wheels came off of the run D when they traded Dareus in 17'.

 

But they were desperate for safety help when they signed Hyde and Poyer too...........I mean it's not an excuse.........they really need to be able to find a serviceable 2 down run stuffer for cheaper than $10M..........I mean, it's a guy who might spend certain games on the bench all day in the modern NFL.

 

 

[Seoulofstone]

As a Panther fan, I can tell you that the fanbase went off Star towards the end of his time in Carolina. It was thought by many that we upgraded with Dontari Poe.

 

This season our run D took a significant backward step. 

[Logic]

9 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Even on his 2017 production he was viewed as grossly overpaid.

 

But then last year the guy tumbled to significant career low points of 17 tackles with ZERO sacks and ZERO QB hits..............he literally fell off the map entirely as a playmaker of any kind.

 

 

I'll say it again: Imagine rating Star Lotulelei on the basis of his sacks and QB hits. 

It's like rating a WR on the amount of pancake blocks he gets. 

[HappyDays]

11 minutes ago, Seoul_panther said:

As a Panther fan, I can tell you that the fanbase went off Star towards the end of his time in Carolina. It was thought by many that we upgraded with Dontari Poe.

 

This season our run D took a significant backward step. 

 

Right and no one is saying Star alone caused your run defense to get a lot worse and ours to get a lot better. But some Bills fans think he was a terrible signing and the stats don't back that up at all.

[Tipster19]

3 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

As I always say..........get the guys at high $ positions in the early rounds of the draft..........don't draft your run stuffers or RB's or safeties or guards/centers early........you can always overpay for them in FA and come out fine so long as you have your expensive positions covered with home grown talent.

 

I like this kind of thinking, I never looked at it this way, very interesting.

[BADOLBILZ]

41 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Right and no one is saying Star alone caused your run defense to get a lot worse and ours to get a lot better. But some Bills fans think he was a terrible signing and the stats don't back that up at all.

 

 

Oh by the way.......neither run defense was particularly good.  

 

 

 

[Royale with Cheese]

3 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Not really, no.

 

We know you love Teef dude.

 

I'm sure Howie Mandell loved George Carlin too...........but c'mon man.............you get nothing to hit after Teef's been up...........you are batting below the Mendoza-line on those.

 

Stick with them free-range gifs.    That's your rubber glove.✌️

 

I've been telling you to stay off those Mike's Hard Lemonade's Baldo....

[HappyDays]

10 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Oh by the way.......neither run defense was particularly good.  

 

 

 

 

The Carolina rush defense went from 3rd in total yards to 15th, 10th in YPA to 25th, and 5th in DVOA to 18th. So no, neither run defense was "particularly good" but one improved significantly and the other got significantly worse. Of course Star alone didn't cause that big swing, but he played a role.

[Bing Bong]

12 hours ago, Logic said:

I'll say it again: Imagine rating Star Lotulelei on the basis of his sacks and QB hits. 

It's like rating a WR on the amount of pancake blocks he gets. 

A pancake blocking specialist receiver would be AWESOME. Can we target a guy in the draft?

[Logic]

1 hour ago, HappyDays said:

 

The Carolina rush defense went from 3rd in total yards to 15th, 10th in YPA to 25th, and 5th in DVOA to 18th. So no, neither run defense was "particularly good" but one improved significantly and the other got significantly worse. Of course Star alone didn't cause that big swing, but he played a role.

Shhhhh. Actual facts have no place in arguments with BADOL!

[BADOLBILZ]

6 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

The Carolina rush defense went from 3rd in total yards to 15th, 10th in YPA to 25th, and 5th in DVOA to 18th. So no, neither run defense was "particularly good" but one improved significantly and the other got significantly worse. Of course Star alone didn't cause that big swing, but he played a role.

 

I tend to think they'd have had a huge dropoff even with Star.    Lotta' moving parts in that Carolina collapse last season and having the increasingly diminished version of Star Lotulelei that the Bills got wasn't going to change any of that.

 

Lotulelei was an improvement over the practice squad rotation that they were using after they traded Dareus in 2017.    That period skewed their seasonal stats greatly.   But the 2018 Bills run defense still wasn't a lot better.    Only improved by a MEAGER .1 ypc and opponents liked the run matchup enough that the Bills were one of the more run-on teams in the NFL(about 4 more rushers per game than Carolina saw).   

 

I could go on.......trust me.........but it's not worth it.........we are talking about two middling run defenses and a greatly overpaid run stuffing DT.

[formerlyofCtown]

On 1/29/2019 at 10:27 AM, IgotBILLStopay said:

He is the prototypical 4-3 DT and will be a good fit for the Bills.

TB cant wait to get rid of him since he is a misfit in a 3-4 alongside Vita Vea. 

So I would like TB to sweeten the pot by offering us a 3rd rounder for us to take him on and relieve them of 13 million cap drain. They are severely cap constrained. Will be like the Osweiler trade to the Browns.

Why would they give us a talented player and a pick when there are plenty of teams that will give them picks?  Osweiler was a bad contract for a bad player.

[Turk71]

On 1/30/2019 at 3:39 PM, Logic said:

Are you serious with this garbage? Beane overpaid for McCarron? REALLY?! And Bodine, too? Absolute nonsense. Furthermore, he later TRADED McCarron and Newhouse to other teams for draft picks. What a waste their signings were ?

As for sending the Browns a 7th round pick for a former 1st round WR when the Bills were desperate for WR help and speed on the outside...are you REALLY gonna fault him for taking that swing?

Seriously, you're trying too hard with the Beane hate. 

And then you have the nerve to end with the two sentences you ended with? If you're gonna be a big richard, take your own advice and "try to get some facts right at least".

 

wait a minute. Regardless of how anyone judges Beane, giving Coleman 3 million dollars guaranteed when the Bills had very little cap money left and then letting him go a week or two later before preseason even started was just a really stupid move. He has made good moves but to try and spin that one as anything but a big mistake is just wrong. 

[formerlyofCtown]

On 1/30/2019 at 7:19 AM, ScottLaw said:

Which track record is this? 

 

He oveerpaid for Star.

Do you people Research anything?  He is paid market value for what he does.

On 1/30/2019 at 9:24 PM, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Even on his 2017 production he was viewed as grossly overpaid.

 

But then last year the guy tumbled to significant career low points of 17 tackles with ZERO sacks and ZERO QB hits..............he literally fell off the map entirely as a playmaker of any kind.

 

They signed him out of desperation after the wheels came off of the run D when they traded Dareus in 17'.

 

But they were desperate for safety help when they signed Hyde and Poyer too...........I mean it's not an excuse.........they really need to be able to find a serviceable 2 down run stuffer for cheaper than $10M..........I mean, it's a guy who might spend certain games on the bench all day in the modern NFL.

 

 

Who views him as grossly overpaid.  

All I see is a bunch of media morans and washed up players.  Who just go on there opinion and not data.  Any market is dictated by the supply and in the case of the workforce you add in the prevailing wage.

Star is not a passrusher and isnt suppose to be.  Dontari Poe is in a similar D and look at the stats and Salary.

Edited February 1, 2019 by formerlyofCtown