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Is DT Gerald McCoy done in Tampa?

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4 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

PFF does no such thing. He graded out well in his early years without putting up bigtime stats(although he did make a COUPLE of plays a season.) He graded out as below average in 2018.

 

Even on his 2017 production he was viewed as grossly overpaid.

 

But then last year the guy tumbled to significant career low points of 17 tackles with ZERO sacks and ZERO QB hits..............he literally fell off the map entirely as a playmaker of any kind.

 

They signed him out of desperation after the wheels came off of the run D when they traded Dareus in 17'.

 

But they were desperate for safety help when they signed Hyde and Poyer too...........I mean it's not an excuse.........they really need to be able to find a serviceable 2 down run stuffer for cheaper than $10M..........I mean, it's a guy who might spend certain games on the bench all day in the modern NFL.

 

 

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As a Panther fan, I can tell you that the fanbase went off Star towards the end of his time in Carolina. It was thought by many that we upgraded with Dontari Poe.

 

This season our run D took a significant backward step. 

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9 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Even on his 2017 production he was viewed as grossly overpaid.

 

But then last year the guy tumbled to significant career low points of 17 tackles with ZERO sacks and ZERO QB hits..............he literally fell off the map entirely as a playmaker of any kind.

 

 


I'll say it again: Imagine rating Star Lotulelei on the basis of his sacks and QB hits. 

It's like rating a WR on the amount of pancake blocks he gets. 

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11 minutes ago, Seoul_panther said:

As a Panther fan, I can tell you that the fanbase went off Star towards the end of his time in Carolina. It was thought by many that we upgraded with Dontari Poe.

 

This season our run D took a significant backward step. 

 

Right and no one is saying Star alone caused your run defense to get a lot worse and ours to get a lot better. But some Bills fans think he was a terrible signing and the stats don't back that up at all.

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3 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

As I always say..........get the guys at high $ positions in the early rounds of the draft..........don't draft your run stuffers or RB's or safeties or guards/centers early........you can always overpay for them in FA and come out fine so long as you have your expensive positions covered with home grown talent.

 

I like this kind of thinking, I never looked at it this way, very interesting.

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41 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Right and no one is saying Star alone caused your run defense to get a lot worse and ours to get a lot better. But some Bills fans think he was a terrible signing and the stats don't back that up at all.

 

 

Oh by the way.......neither run defense was particularly good.  

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Not really, no.

 

We know you love Teef dude.

 

I'm sure Howie Mandell loved George Carlin too...........but c'mon man.............you get nothing to hit after Teef's been up...........you are batting below the Mendoza-line on those.

 

Stick with them free-range gifs.    That's your rubber glove.✌️

 

I've been telling you to stay off those Mike's Hard Lemonade's Baldo....

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10 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Oh by the way.......neither run defense was particularly good.  

 

 

 

 

The Carolina rush defense went from 3rd in total yards to 15th, 10th in YPA to 25th, and 5th in DVOA to 18th. So no, neither run defense was "particularly good" but one improved significantly and the other got significantly worse. Of course Star alone didn't cause that big swing, but he played a role.

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12 hours ago, Logic said:


I'll say it again: Imagine rating Star Lotulelei on the basis of his sacks and QB hits. 

It's like rating a WR on the amount of pancake blocks he gets. 

A pancake blocking specialist receiver would be AWESOME. Can we target a guy in the draft?

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1 hour ago, HappyDays said:

 

The Carolina rush defense went from 3rd in total yards to 15th, 10th in YPA to 25th, and 5th in DVOA to 18th. So no, neither run defense was "particularly good" but one improved significantly and the other got significantly worse. Of course Star alone didn't cause that big swing, but he played a role.


Shhhhh. Actual facts have no place in arguments with BADOL!

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6 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

The Carolina rush defense went from 3rd in total yards to 15th, 10th in YPA to 25th, and 5th in DVOA to 18th. So no, neither run defense was "particularly good" but one improved significantly and the other got significantly worse. Of course Star alone didn't cause that big swing, but he played a role.

 

I tend to think they'd have had a huge dropoff even with Star.    Lotta' moving parts in that Carolina collapse last season and having the increasingly diminished version of Star Lotulelei that the Bills got wasn't going to change any of that.

 

Lotulelei was an improvement over the practice squad rotation that they were using after they traded Dareus in 2017.    That period skewed their seasonal stats greatly.   But the 2018 Bills run defense still wasn't a lot better.    Only improved by a MEAGER .1 ypc and opponents liked the run matchup enough that the Bills were one of the more run-on teams in the NFL(about 4 more rushers per game than Carolina saw).   

 

I could go on.......trust me.........but it's not worth it.........we are talking about two middling run defenses and a greatly overpaid run stuffing DT.

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On 1/29/2019 at 10:27 AM, IgotBILLStopay said:

He is the prototypical 4-3 DT and will be a good fit for the Bills.

TB cant wait to get rid of him since he is a misfit in a 3-4 alongside Vita Vea. 

So I would like TB to sweeten the pot by offering us a 3rd rounder for us to take him on and relieve them of 13 million cap drain. They are severely cap constrained. Will be like the Osweiler trade to the Browns.

Why would they give us a talented player and a pick when there are plenty of teams that will give them picks?  Osweiler was a bad contract for a bad player.

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On 1/30/2019 at 3:39 PM, Logic said:


Are you serious with this garbage? Beane overpaid for McCarron? REALLY?! And Bodine, too? Absolute nonsense. Furthermore, he later TRADED McCarron and Newhouse to other teams for draft picks. What a waste their signings were 🙄

As for sending the Browns a 7th round pick for a former 1st round WR when the Bills were desperate for WR help and speed on the outside...are you REALLY gonna fault him for taking that swing?

Seriously, you're trying too hard with the Beane hate. 

And then you have the nerve to end with the two sentences you ended with? If you're gonna be a big richard, take your own advice and "try to get some facts right at least".

 

wait a minute. Regardless of how anyone judges Beane, giving Coleman 3 million dollars guaranteed when the Bills had very little cap money left and then letting him go a week or two later before preseason even started was just a really stupid move. He has made good moves but to try and spin that one as anything but a big mistake is just wrong. 

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On 1/30/2019 at 7:19 AM, ScottLaw said:

Which track record is this? 

 

He oveerpaid for Star.

Do you people Research anything?  He is paid market value for what he does.

On 1/30/2019 at 9:24 PM, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Even on his 2017 production he was viewed as grossly overpaid.

 

But then last year the guy tumbled to significant career low points of 17 tackles with ZERO sacks and ZERO QB hits..............he literally fell off the map entirely as a playmaker of any kind.

 

They signed him out of desperation after the wheels came off of the run D when they traded Dareus in 17'.

 

But they were desperate for safety help when they signed Hyde and Poyer too...........I mean it's not an excuse.........they really need to be able to find a serviceable 2 down run stuffer for cheaper than $10M..........I mean, it's a guy who might spend certain games on the bench all day in the modern NFL.

 

 

Who views him as grossly overpaid.  

All I see is a bunch of media morans and washed up players.  Who just go on there opinion and not data.  Any market is dictated by the supply and in the case of the workforce you add in the prevailing wage.

Star is not a passrusher and isnt suppose to be.  Dontari Poe is in a similar D and look at the stats and Salary.

Edited by formerlyofCtown
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10 hours ago, Turk71 said:

wait a minute. Regardless of how anyone judges Beane, giving Coleman 3 million dollars guaranteed when the Bills had very little cap money left and then letting him go a week or two later before preseason even started was just a really stupid move. He has made good moves but to try and spin that one as anything but a big mistake is just wrong. 


I disagree. 

A poor result does not equal a bad move. With 20/20 hindsight, you can sit there and say "it didn't work out, so it was a terrible move". In my opinion, though, a player of Coleman's talent -- particularly given how the Bills' WR corps was lacking in talent at speed at the time -- was worth the gamble of a future 7th round pick. The fact that the move didn't work out does not mean that it was a risk not worth taking. I want my general manager doing everything he can to improve the team at all times -- with the full understanding that not every move he makes is going to work out. Not a single GM in the NFL has ever had a 100% success rate with personnel moves. Not one. 

And did Coleman's signing hurt the Bills long term? No, not at all. He has no salary cap implications on the team in 2019. It was a low-risk move that didn't pay off. That doesn't mean it was a bad swing to take, in my opinion.

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12 hours ago, formerlyofCtown said:

Do you people Research anything?  He is paid market value for what he does.

Who views him as grossly overpaid.  

All I see is a bunch of media morans and washed up players.  Who just go on there opinion and not data.  Any market is dictated by the supply and in the case of the workforce you add in the prevailing wage.

Star is not a passrusher and isnt suppose to be.  Dontari Poe is in a similar D and look at the stats and Salary.

 

 

 

 

In your research where you compare him to Dontari Poe did you happen to notice that Lotulelei got $25M in guarantees and Poe got $11M?😂

 

That's not the same.     Poe has a short term contract that encourages him to produce or else.........Star got basically 50% of a 5 year deal guaranteed(and a higher AAV to boot).:doh:

 

I'm aware that expectations for Star actually making any plays were low.........but look at his career stats......he was always good for 5-6 collisions with the QB.........last year,  NONE.

 

That's a bit of a red-flag, champ.   It's not like the Bills run defense was good........it wasn't......it was merely average.

 

And btw........ both Poe and Lotulelei sucked and were poor values.

 

But of course, professor......I await the results of your research.(riiiiiiiiight:rolleyes:)

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On 1/31/2019 at 1:07 PM, BADOLBILZ said:

 

I tend to think they'd have had a huge dropoff even with Star.    Lotta' moving parts in that Carolina collapse last season and having the increasingly diminished version of Star Lotulelei that the Bills got wasn't going to change any of that.

 

Lotulelei was an improvement over the practice squad rotation that they were using after they traded Dareus in 2017.    That period skewed their seasonal stats greatly.   But the 2018 Bills run defense still wasn't a lot better.    Only improved by a MEAGER .1 ypc and opponents liked the run matchup enough that the Bills were one of the more run-on teams in the NFL(about 4 more rushers per game than Carolina saw).   

 

I could go on.......trust me.........but it's not worth it.........we are talking about two middling run defenses and a greatly overpaid run stuffing DT.

While I would love for Horrible Harry to step in there and fill Meatball's loss.....we should be looking for a decent DT for that position.....

Really hope we dont lose the guy we got when Miami released him.

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33 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

 

 

In your research where you compare him to Dontari Poe did you happen to notice that Lotulelei got $25M in guarantees and Poe got $11M?😂

 

That's not the same.     Poe has a short term contract that encourages him to produce or else.........Star got basically 50% of a 5 year deal guaranteed(and a higher AAV to boot).:doh:

 

I'm aware that expectations for Star actually making any plays were low.........but look at his career stats......he was always good for 5-6 collisions with the QB.........last year,  NONE.

 

That's a bit of a red-flag, champ.   It's not like the Bills run defense was good........it wasn't......it was merely average.

 

And btw........ both Poe and Lotulelei sucked and were poor values.

 

But of course, professor......I await the results of your research.(riiiiiiiiight:rolleyes:)

10 mil a year is 20 mil a year.  According to what your saying you wouldnt like it if he got a 5 year 25 mil contract and they other guy got 30 but not gautanteed you would prefer the 30.  Gauranteed only bothers me with old or injury prone players.  Both will finish the contract.  No you just dont get that they occupy other players so that others can get the tackles.  This isnt 1990 anymore.  The type of DT you want gets twice that.  Just because you dont like it doesnt mean it isnt fair market value.  It is abdolutely fair market value and he is very good at what is expected.  If we get our big nickel safety we will have a very good D.

As to his stats, he had better DTs around him.  A guy thats making 16 mil per year.

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On 1/29/2019 at 10:16 AM, Florida Bills Fanatic said:

He is likely to be a cap casualty.  He is still a very good player. Bean won't be interested, if he is looking for big money and a longer term contract.  Realistically, Bean appears to be constructing the team to make a run in 2020 and 2021.  McCoy's best years will be behind him by that time.  As much as I like McCoy as a player, I don't expect it to happen.

This ^

 

We don't need every other team's 30+ yr old guy taking up big cap space when the run is 2020 on.

 

Keep building the core through the draft or through trades.

1 hour ago, John from Riverside said:

While I would love for Horrible Harry to step in there and fill Meatball's loss.....we should be looking for a decent DT for that position.....

Really hope we dont lose the guy we got when Miami released him.

 

Jordan Phillips, I like this guy. 26 yrs old, has an edge and a bit of nasty.

Edited by RocCityRoller

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2 minutes ago, RocCityRoller said:

This ^

 

We don't need every other team's 30+ yr old guy taking up big cap space when the run is 2020 on.

 

Keep building the core through the draft or through trades.

 

Why can’t the “run” start in 2019?

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Just now, Aussie Joe said:

 

Why can’t the “run” start in 2019?

 

IMO the team is half baked, too many holes, even on defense. It's like rushing a dough when it still has to rise. Patience grasshopper.

 

Making a few big money 'big splashes' this year on ageing guys will put the team in a cap mess in 2-4 yrs when Allen is hitting his stride.

The guys OBD drafted last year, this year and next are the core on rookie contracts this team will be built on when Allen is ready.

I feel better because guys like Jones/Foster/Edmunds and Wallace showed improvement this past season.

 

If OBD can find a FA younger player or two in positions of need that is emerging or has been in the wrong scheme, then fine. But it seems like a lot

of folks here would rather get some 30+ guys to fills holes now, not looking ahead 2-4 years. Draft, see where the picks failed (some will succeed) and

then fill holes.

 

If it were me I'd be going BPA all draft and getting OL/DL and WR this year while being open to trades down instead of a reaching in the draft.

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3 minutes ago, RocCityRoller said:

 

IMO the team is half baked, too many holes, even on defense. It's like rushing a dough when it still has to rise. Patience grasshopper.

 

Making a few big money 'big splashes' this year on ageing guys will put the team in a cap mess in 2-4 yrs when Allen is hitting his stride.

The guys OBD drafted last year, this year and next are the core on rookie contracts this team will be built on when Allen is ready.

I feel better because guys like Jones/Foster/Edmunds and Wallace showed improvement this past season.

 

If OBD can find a FA younger player or two in positions of need that is emerging or has been in the wrong scheme, then fine. But it seems like a lot

of folks here would rather get some 30+ guys to fills holes now, not looking ahead 2-4 years. Draft, see where the picks failed (some will succeed) and

then fill holes.

 

If it were me I'd be going BPA all draft and getting OL/DL and WR this year while being open to trades down instead of a reaching in the draft.

 

I’m not sure what exactly is meant by making a “run” but if it’s making the playoffs and winning a game then I think this needs to be the target in 2019.. of course whether they achieve it is another matter, but they shouldn’t be writing off 2019 already..

 

They have plenty of holes as you have said, so why not use Gerald McCoy to fill one of them.. even if it’s just short term?

 

As has been pointed out in this thread, his contract makes him complete cuttable at any time with no guaranteed money..

 

We are all aware that there is plenty of spare money available the next two years before they have to start paying their rookies..

 

McCoy is still a good player, and might have two more good years left in him... if he doesn’t then cut him at the end of 2019..

 

There is no need to think he is going to be an old over the hill hasbeen taking up cap space  in 2021..if he isn’t up to it then move on..

 

Just saying it’s an option is all..

 

 

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1 hour ago, RocCityRoller said:

 

IMO the team is half baked, too many holes, even on defense. It's like rushing a dough when it still has to rise. Patience grasshopper.

 

Making a few big money 'big splashes' this year on ageing guys will put the team in a cap mess in 2-4 yrs when Allen is hitting his stride.

The guys OBD drafted last year, this year and next are the core on rookie contracts this team will be built on when Allen is ready.

I feel better because guys like Jones/Foster/Edmunds and Wallace showed improvement this past season.

 

If OBD can find a FA younger player or two in positions of need that is emerging or has been in the wrong scheme, then fine. But it seems like a lot

of folks here would rather get some 30+ guys to fills holes now, not looking ahead 2-4 years. Draft, see where the picks failed (some will succeed) and

then fill holes.

 

If it were me I'd be going BPA all draft and getting OL/DL and WR this year while being open to trades down instead of a reaching in the draft.

This does reflect what McBeanes are thinking as well. this will not be a year for FA high diving.
they will spend what they have to after the draft.

 But geesh, lets focus on the Offense if looking for immediate impact , or bang.

50 minutes ago, Aussie Joe said:

 

I’m not sure what exactly is meant by making a “run” but if it’s making the playoffs and winning a game then I think this needs to be the target in 2019.. of course whether they achieve it is another matter, but they shouldn’t be writing off 2019 already..

 

They have plenty of holes as you have said, so why not use Gerald McCoy to fill one of them.. even if it’s just short term?

 

As has been pointed out in this thread, his contract makes him complete cuttable at any time with no guaranteed money..

 

We are all aware that there is plenty of spare money available the next two years before they have to start paying their rookies..

 

McCoy is still a good player, and might have two more good years left in him... if he doesn’t then cut him at the end of 2019..

 

There is no need to think he is going to be an old over the hill hasbeen taking up cap space  in 2021..if he isn’t up to it then move on..

 

Just saying it’s an option is all..

 

 

Its fair.
 

what does McD see though ?

 : )

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2 hours ago, formerlyofCtown said:

10 mil a year is 20 mil a year.  According to what your saying you wouldnt like it if he got a 5 year 25 mil contract and they other guy got 30 but not gautanteed you would prefer the 30.  Gauranteed only bothers me with old or injury prone players.  Both will finish the contract.  No you just dont get that they occupy other players so that others can get the tackles.  This isnt 1990 anymore.  The type of DT you want gets twice that.  Just because you dont like it doesnt mean it isnt fair market value.  It is abdolutely fair market value and he is very good at what is expected.  If we get our big nickel safety we will have a very good D.

As to his stats, he had better DTs around him.  A guy thats making 16 mil per year.

 

The moment you realize you are arguing with someone who has no clue about the topic.😂

 

Hey Teeflebees.........you gotta' a 👍 for that hot take!:lol:

 

 

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58 minutes ago, Aussie Joe said:

 

I’m not sure what exactly is meant by making a “run” but if it’s making the playoffs and winning a game then I think this needs to be the target in 2019.. of course whether they achieve it is another matter, but they shouldn’t be writing off 2019 already..

 

They have plenty of holes as you have said, so why not use Gerald McCoy to fill one of them.. even if it’s just short term?

 

As has been pointed out in this thread, his contract makes him complete cuttable at any time with no guaranteed money..

 

We are all aware that there is plenty of spare money available the next two years before they have to start paying their rookies..

 

McCoy is still a good player, and might have two more good years left in him... if he doesn’t then cut him at the end of 2019..

 

There is no need to think he is going to be an old over the hill hasbeen taking up cap space  in 2021..if he isn’t up to it then move on..

 

Just saying it’s an option is all..

 

 

Hey Aussie Joe. Nice to have a civil discussion and difference of opinion. Are you from Australia or have links to it?

 

To be fair a guy like Gerald McCoy is not going to sign for peanuts. This is probably his last chance at a big contract. I could see him being a great fit for a team like Pittsburgh, KC or Indy. Teams that can win it all next year by adding a player or two on the defense. Our beloved Bills are a couple of years away.

 

I'm a fan of rolling over free cap and bringing in 2-3 rookie classes with a new GM and see what you have before spending high money on 30+ guys who are short term solutions.

Beane has only had one draft to let his work out.

 

I'd rather have guys approaching 30 in 2-3 yrs than 30-32 now.

 

IMO its a better way to build a team if OBD thinks they have the QB in place.

 

We will have to see what OBD thinks.

 

I've been a fan of Gerald McCoy, terrific DT. I just don't think he's the right guy right now for Buffalo.

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