McDermott’s conservative garbage

[billsfan1959]

So where are we at this point - should McDermott be fired or not for this? I've lost track.

[FeelingOnYouboty]

He has no sense of time clock, in game management or when to challenge. You rarely see NFL coaches get better at this sort of thing either. 

[SoCal Deek]

21 minutes ago, FeelingOnYouboty said:

He has no sense of time clock, in game management or when to challenge. You rarely see NFL coaches get better at this sort of thing either. 

Maybe he needs to let someone else do it. Every coach isn’t great at everything.

[greeneblitz]

This will be McDermott's downfall, same attitude as Rex, Jauron and Marrone, all of these guys still think defense wins games and they're all happy just to be ahead by a touchdown and try to run out the clock, at least to one degree or another. To where in todays NFL teams can easily score 20 plus points in 1 quarter.

[FeelingOnYouboty]

57 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Maybe he needs to let someone else do it. Every coach isn’t great at everything.

 

Andy Reid is still bad at this.

[Billsfan1972]

47 minutes ago, greeneblitz said:

This will be McDermott's downfall, same attitude as Rex, Jauron and Marrone, all of these guys still think defense wins games and they're all happy just to be ahead by a touchdown and try to run out the clock, at least to one degree or another. To where in todays NFL teams can easily score 20 plus points in 1 quarter.

Bang on.....  17 points and the Bills moving the ball shows the issues that we'll see over and over.  Great first 20 minutes vs. Min & NYJ and otherwise a slog every other game.  Does it really have to be that way?

[Rochesterfan]

15 hours ago, Perry Turtle said:

It's pretty standard to try to get in field goal position with a minute left in the half when your starting beyond your own 25 yardline.  The Bills weren't backed up on near go line.  Most teams would try a few chunk plays to get 40 yards or so to get into range.

 

On the  broadcast, Lofton was talking about sitting on the ball because it was too far to go for the TD.  Couldn't figure out why he was ignoring the FG, especially since the Bill's were getting the ball first in the 2nd half.

 

 

 

 

It it would be great if they had started beyond their 25.  I am sure many things would have been different, but after the kick-off and penalty they started at their own 10.

 

They ran 4 plays 2 runs and a pass to get a first down and a 3rd run before getting a play beyond the 25 yard line - with Tellers false start.  

 

The one play they ran where the snap was passed the Bills own 25 - was a 20 yard completion - a chunk play.  Every other play on that drive was inside their own 25.

 

The mistake was the timeout after the completion because either a run or a pass gets you a shot at the FG, but with only 5 seconds it had to be quick and down with the timeout and I am not sure all of the 1st year players on the offense were ready for that.

 

That really left the Hail Mary as the only option (once the time-out was used).

 

So I am not sure exactly what your complaint is in your thread - since once they got to your point on the field - they did exactly what you asked.  

 

Right?

Edited December 3, 2018 by Rochesterfan

[jrober38]

McDermott has never been a very good in game manager.

 

He regularly wastes challenges, doesn't utilize time outs properly, rarely looks for points before halftime if the clock is under 90 seconds, and loves punting on 4th and short inside opposition territory (he did it again yesterday on 4th and 2 from the Miami 48 yard line). 

 

McDermott gets his guys to play hard, and his players seem to respect him, but his conservative nature is really tiring. For a team that's not going to make the playoffs, there's no reason to be playing as conservatively as we do on offense. 

[Rochesterfan]

3 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

No problem with him punting it on 4th and 2 hoping the punter could pin them inside the 10 with how well our defense was playing in a field position game.  Although obvious, why not try and draw them Offside and if it doesn't work then you just take the delay of game to give your punter more field to work with?  I thought that sequence was fine and our punter of course botched it.

 

The end of the 2nd quarter was atrocious though.  Even with mismanagement of timeouts (blown challenge), you absolutely give Haushka a chance to make that 58 yarder.  Much better chance of him making that than getting a TD on a Hal Mary.  Only acceptable excuse for that decision is that Haushka says he broke his kicking leg doing his weird stretches.

 

I think normally you are right, but I am guessing based upon the 4th quarter FG of 55 yards that 58 was outside of his range in that direction and the coach new it.  The 55 yard miss would have barely cleared the upright If in the center - I am not sure he had the leg in that humidity to get 58.  Maybe I am wrong, but typically the kicker gives a maximum distance they are comfortable with and that expands a bit at the end of the game where they tried from 55.

[SoCal Deek]

9 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

I think normally you are right, but I am guessing based upon the 4th quarter FG of 55 yards that 58 was outside of his range in that direction and the coach new it.  The 55 yard miss would have barely cleared the upright If in the center - I am not sure he had the leg in that humidity to get 58.  Maybe I am wrong, but typically the kicker gives a maximum distance they are comfortable with and that expands a bit at the end of the game where they tried from 55.

The final mistake was not trying a quick out pattern with five seconds left. There was time and it would’ve shortened the field goal.

[Rochesterfan]

3 hours ago, Nextmanup said:

This point was brought up in the post-game radio show with Schopp & The Bulldog.

Perhaps that was you calling in?

 

The answer as to why we do this is what Schopp said: it's the way McDermott wants to play football.  He wants to slow the game down to a crawl, shorten it, play tight defense, and win every game 10-7.

 

I am of the opinion that this philosophy absolutely does not work in the NFL in 2018.  We are possibly THE MOST conservative/cautious team left in the league at this point.  Not good, if you're a Bills fan.

 

I couldn't agree with you more; we threw away that possession at the end of the half and that is losing football.  Which makes sense, given that we lost.

 

McDermott's penalty flag challenge was also bad, as almost ALL of his challenges have been since he arrived here.  We clearly do not have a competent system in place to ensure proper challenges and eliminate poor challenges.

 

It's another sign of bad coaching/lack of organization.

 

 

The highlighted is totally wrong. 

 

If Bill Belichick was watching the game today sitting next to you, he would have asked why the Bills aren't calling timeouts, as the OP did, in real time.

 

No hindsight there at all.

 

 

 

Are you sure about this?  

 

Because in the NE game at the half - the Vikings got the ball with under 2 minutes (1:57) to be exact and drove down the field.  They were at the NE 25 with almost 1:30 left.  Minnesota completed a pass in play and NE did not use a TIme-out - let 30 run off. Next play is a 5 yard run by Minnesota to the 22 - again no time-out by NE and another 30 seconds run off.  Then a completion and Minnesota uses a time-out. Another run out bounds and another completion with Minnesota using a time out. Then the touchdown with 15 seconds left and NE had all of their timeouts.

 

I think you missed the entire point and don’t like the coach do you are projecting - when McDermott actually used a timeout to conserve enough clock to try and make a play before the half and Belicheck did the exact opposite in his game and let a minute and 15 run off rather than use timeouts.

 

I think hindsight would actually help you a bit in this case.

7 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

The final mistake was not trying a quick out pattern with five seconds left. There was time and it would’ve shortened the field goal.

 

I agree - especially with the timeout.  I think the issue is you have a lot of guys that are 1st and 2nd year players and although a quick out would work - with 5 seconds they need to understand the entire situation and I think right now these guys are being coached on a lot of basics - route running - hitting specific depths - seeing things that the QB sees.  

 

You have an undrafted rookie, a 2nd year player in Zay, and a guy you picked up off a practice squad a few weeks ago as your primary WRs.  I think the coaching staff talks about and runs end of half plays, but I do not believe these young players have seen or prepared the way veterans do for these plays and it costs the team right now.

 

They will all be better for it in the future.

Edited December 3, 2018 by Rochesterfan

[papazoid]

poor clock management

 

poor play challenges ( 1 of 10)

 

claps way too much (maddening....lol)

 

says nothing interesting at pressers (even less than most)

 

get used to it......will likely get a second 5 year deal

 

 

[The Frankish Reich]

17 hours ago, MrEpsYtown said:

They need EJ Manuel for those hard counts. 

Did anyone actually think they’d snap the ball in that situation? Surely not the Dolphins defense. You’ve got nothing to lose, McClappy .... coach like it! 

[HomeskillitMoorman]

18 hours ago, Rc2catch said:

For me anyways he seems to base these kinds of calls on how the team is playing. 

When they are executing plays effectively he doesn’t seem to mind being aggressive. But when they’re struggling to run the simplest of plays and picking up penalties non stop he seems very scared to risk anything. You can look at it two ways, when the team is struggling maybe an aggressive playcall sparks them, or maybe an aggressive playcall causes more damage. 

I didn’t like the safety challenge, or waiting to call the timeout when there’s 10 seconds on the play clock before halftime. 

Being a newish coach still I expect these kinds of mistakes. And I prefer he learns from this stuff on a lost season than say when the games mean more in a real playoff hunt. 

I don’t want to see this team this year in a playoff game. Has embarrassment written all over it 

 

I can't agree that it's based on how the team is going because there's been a pattern of this going back to last year. The being a new coach thing was an excuse for him last year, one I don't really agree with. That's all about preparation and strategic thinking. But even if you did want to give him that, it's year 2 now. There's no way those should just be mistakes. I think it's more of his conservative nature, and I actually think that's less insulting to him. If it's literally that he's a "new coach" in year 2 and can't process a situation or what he wants to do fast enough...I think we have even bigger problems. I just don't like the conservative nature.

18 hours ago, MarkAF43 said:

 

 

DId you just call WGR?

 

Haha, no, I'm out of state and have never really listened to WGR. I tried it out a couple of times but just kind of found it boring. I listen to stuff on the Ringer the most often. 

[BillsFan130]

1 hour ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

Are you sure about this?  

 

Because in the NE game at the half - the Vikings got the ball with under 2 minutes (1:57) to be exact and drove down the field.  They were at the NE 25 with almost 1:30 left.  Minnesota completed a pass in play and NE did not use a TIme-out - let 30 run off. Next play is a 5 yard run by Minnesota to the 22 - again no time-out by NE and another 30 seconds run off.  Then a completion and Minnesota uses a time-out. Another run out bounds and another completion with Minnesota using a time out. Then the touchdown with 15 seconds left and NE had all of their timeouts.

 

I think you missed the entire point and don’t like the coach do you are projecting - when McDermott actually used a timeout to conserve enough clock to try and make a play before the half and Belicheck did the exact opposite in his game and let a minute and 15 run off rather than use timeouts.

 

I think hindsight would actually help you a bit in this case.

 

Different Scenarios:

 

1. Bills were losing in the game and were about to be down either 4 or 8. (It ended up being 8.) Where NE was up 10-0

2. The field position. Miami was inside the 10 where Minnesota was just on the fringe of the redzone. That is a huge difference as Miami can literally control the clock however they want, where Minnesota still obviously still needs to move at a quicker pace and can't let the clock bleed down on every play. If Minnesota was inside the 10 and they were running the ball with 1:00 left, I can almost guarantee the Pats would call a TO even with that 10-0 lead.

 

 

[HomeskillitMoorman]

18 hours ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

 

I'd love to see evidence of any team doing this?  I can't recall seeing that happen. In the 2nd half in the last two minutes of the game, yes,, of If they were inside the Miami 10, then yes, makes sense.  But you're taking alot of risk in giving Miami a lot more time to run run plays.  They could lose 10 on an offensive holding penalty, then next play a defensive holding so automatic 1st down.  By taking timeouts, you give the team time to run more plays, more time to potentially score.

 

Give me examples as I can't recall a team calling a time out in the fist half when the other team is driving deep,  key here 1st half and driving deep.

 

Teams do this all the time. Miami was  with almost 2 minutes left and still had all 3 of their timeouts. That's an eternity when you're already that deep, and if they needed any extra time for any of their plays, they had their own timeouts to use. Time for them was not an issue. There is literally no reason for us NOT to call timeouts. You'd get yourself an extra possession at the end of the half with a good amount of time without sacrificing anything to the opposition. McDermott literally chose not to do that. 

18 hours ago, Bill_with_it said:

This is an ll around bad thread. Too much hindsight. There is literally no way any of you questioning the end of the first half decisions by Sean thought the team would make it to the 40 considering the first half. Too many penalties and struggling to move the ball. Alot of the last call there was on the OC; numerous times theough the game Josh is looking to the sidelines motioning that the call needs to come in quicker. This game isnt on the HC.

 

It's not hindsight at all, in any way.  I never said we would have scored if he had called the timeouts. I'm saying he butchered the OPPORTUNITY for us to potentially score. And I wouldn't blame McDermott if Josh had more time and more plays on that drive and threw a pick-6. If that happens in that spot, oh well, I can live with that because strategically it is still the right play. You still have to have confidence in your offense and give them that extra possession with as much time as possible.  

 

No matter what would have happened, it is horrendous game management to not call timeouts there to give us a possession at the end of the half with more time on the clock. And yes, if the calls aren't coming in faster even if it's from the OC, that is ultimately on the head coach. That's why he's called the HEAD coach. The OC is an extension of him and answers to him. 

Edited December 3, 2018 by HomeskillitMoorman

[HomeskillitMoorman]

18 hours ago, MJS said:

I've watched a lot of football in my life. I can tell you that every coach makes game management mistakes. Every single one.

 

I haven't seen anything to tell me that McDermott is worse at managing a game than other coaches.

 

Coaches make mistakes because there are an infinite amount of variables to consider. Fans usually look at the situations with hindsight.

 

The hindsight nonsense is such a cop-out here. What part of this is hindsight? Maybe we end up scoring points if McDermott uses his timeouts there and we have more time on that last drive. Maybe Josh throws a pick-6. I'm not pretending to know what would have happened. What we DO know is that it was a possession wasted because we ran out of time because he didn't call those timeouts when there was no drawback to not using them. He left a possession on the table, that's not hindsight, that's fact. 

17 hours ago, PlayoffsPlease said:

There are not.  Time left. Time outs left. Field position.  Which team has the ball.  There is an optimal decision about taking/ not taking times outs for each situation.  Good coaches don't use their gut or figure it out on the fly.  They know exactly what they are going to do in a given situation before the game begins. 

 

Boom. Can't say it any better or more concisely than that. 

17 hours ago, MJS said:

 

Sounds wonderful. Doesn't actually happen in games.

 

Yes it does. All the time. Good coaches take advantage of getting an extra possession wherever they can, especially in the scenario we were in where there was literally no drawback to it. 

[Estro]

18 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

LOL I was just about to ask that

No that was me that called WGR.

 

The poster is right.  McDermott cost the Bills a scoring chance by not using his timeouts.  Totally unacceptable.   The thing that bugs me the most is he won't learn from it, he might not even realize he botched it.  He'll pour through the film and analyze all the x's and o's, but will totally overlook the fact he declined the opportunity to score at the end of the half solely through his inept clock management.  

 

Not 1 question about it from the media after the game either.  

 

Sean you guys had 5 seconds left from the +42 to end the half and attempted a hailmary?  Do you wish you had used timeouts when the Phins had the ball on the previous drive and given your team an extra minute or so to possibly score? 

 

Seems like a ? He should be asked at the very least.  I'm not sure he would even understand the ?, which would be pretty telling in and of itself.

[Billsfan1972]

The Bills had 2 timeouts (3 if not for the terrible challenge).  They could have definitely used the clock better and getr a 2 for 1 (Basketball analogy) as they had the last possession of the first half and were getting the kick to start the second half.  

 

This is all about seeing what you have in Allen and figuring it out.  Playing for 14-10 games with Allen is a waste of time.

 

Now the 4th & two at midfield.  A good coach either has a play and does a quick snap and looks like they are 100% committed or runs the play.  You are trying to get the other team to jump or burn a TO.  Everyone know McD isn't doing anything.

[The Poojer]

thing that pisses me off most is this isn't the first game where we stunk up the place in the first half and came out the second half a different team.  Why not make in game adjustments instead of doing it at halftime.  With all the coaching personnel it shouldn't be difficult to be that dynamic while the game is going on.  And it's almost laughable that 95%+(?) of our first down plays are hand off to RB...teams know that and don't have to do too much to game plan.  it's frustrating as hell

[HomeskillitMoorman]

17 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said:

Conservative? Like going for a Hail Mary instead of a long FG?

 

I honestly didn't have a problem with either going for the Hail Mary or long FG there because it's kind of no-man's land. I didn't feel like there was necessarily a "right" call there. The Hail Mary didn't work but whatever, I'm not getting on him for that.

 

It's what led up to that. Not even counting the butchering on the other side when McDermott didn't call the timeouts that was the reason we ran out of time...it's that he was completely indecisive when we got to the 41 and had to burn a timeout because he didn't know what he wanted to do. That 5 seconds was enough time to run a quick play and call a timeout. If we grab a few yards, we can go for the FG. If not, you can still attempt that Hail Mary. 

 

The problem here isn't the outcome, it's that McDermott didn't optimize what he had to give the team the best opportunity. And that's a big part of his job. And he's terrible at it. 

[HomeskillitMoorman]

5 hours ago, Nextmanup said:

This point was brought up in the post-game radio show with Schopp & The Bulldog.

Perhaps that was you calling in?

 

The answer as to why we do this is what Schopp said: it's the way McDermott wants to play football.  He wants to slow the game down to a crawl, shorten it, play tight defense, and win every game 10-7.

 

I am of the opinion that this philosophy absolutely does not work in the NFL in 2018.  We are possibly THE MOST conservative/cautious team left in the league at this point.  Not good, if you're a Bills fan.

 

I couldn't agree with you more; we threw away that possession at the end of the half and that is losing football.  Which makes sense, given that we lost.

 

McDermott's penalty flag challenge was also bad, as almost ALL of his challenges have been since he arrived here.  We clearly do not have a competent system in place to ensure proper challenges and eliminate poor challenges.

 

It's another sign of bad coaching/lack of organization.

 

 

 

 

Yup, agree with all of it. I haven't really even gotten to the challenges. He is horrific with them, and you're right, the system in place is on him. 

 

I keep seeing excuses made for him, like "the OC wasn't getting the calls in quick enough" or "he's told from someone upstairs whether to challenge or not"...but these are all part of the systems and people he has in place. That's all part of being a head coach and why it's a big job. It's all on him. 

[MarkAF43]

1 hour ago, HomeskillitMoorman said:

 

I can't agree that it's based on how the team is going because there's been a pattern of this going back to last year. The being a new coach thing was an excuse for him last year, one I don't really agree with. That's all about preparation and strategic thinking. But even if you did want to give him that, it's year 2 now. There's no way those should just be mistakes. I think it's more of his conservative nature, and I actually think that's less insulting to him. If it's literally that he's a "new coach" in year 2 and can't process a situation or what he wants to do fast enough...I think we have even bigger problems. I just don't like the conservative nature.

 

Haha, no, I'm out of state and have never really listened to WGR. I tried it out a couple of times but just kind of found it boring. I listen to stuff on the Ringer the most often. 

 

 

I only ask because literally someone called them after the game and had many of the same points you did.  

[Rochesterfan]

31 minutes ago, billsfan11 said:

Different Scenarios:

 

1. Bills were losing in the game and were about to be down either 4 or 8. (It ended up being 8.) Where NE was up 10-0

2. The field position. Miami was inside the 10 where Minnesota was just on the fringe of the redzone. That is a huge difference as Miami can literally control the clock however they want, where Minnesota still obviously still needs to move at a quicker pace and can't let the clock bleed down on every play. If Minnesota was inside the 10 and they were running the ball with 1:00 left, I can almost guarantee the Pats would call a TO even with that 10-0 lead.

 

 

 

 

Ok so I have 2 points:

 

1.  You are saying it is ok for Belichek not to use time outs and be conservative there because they were up by 10 (3 after the TD) with Minnesota getting the ball to start the second half and Belicheck having one of the greatest if not the greatest QBs of all time.  McDermott though is supposed to be aggressive with a rookie QB and a bad offense in a 1 score game getting the ball to start the second half.  Not sure I agree with that, but ok - seems a bit backwards - I would think Belichek with Brady would be the more aggressive one.

 

2. Then let’s take a trip back a couple of weeks and see how NE handles a drive by Tennessee losing by 7 late in the second half.  Low and behold NE allowed the Titans to move down the field and use 3:30 minutes to the 2 minute warning without using any timeouts.  NE had 2 timeouts just like Buffalo.  At the 2 minute warning it was 3rd and 2 and the Titans get a first down to the 2 yard line, but Belichek did not take a time out there.  NE stops the first and goal run from the 2 and takes their first timeout after 40+ seconds ran off the clock.  Belichek then used his timeout and the Titans scored with 1:09 left.  

 

NE got a touchback so with the greatest QB of all time - they got to start at the 25 with 1:08 and a timeout.  Funny they got to the Titan 43 with 2 seconds left - did not kick a FG and Brady got sacked on the Hail Mary.

 

The 2 set-ups were nearly identical- The Bills took a second timeout at the exact same play and time as Belicheck in his game.  The biggest difference is Buffalo started at the 10 rather than the 25 and had about 15 seconds less, but Josh got them further than Brady and got off the Hail Mary pass.

 

Overall - could McDermott have done better - Yes of course, but the fact is he treated it exactly like KC did in their game and NE in their game - calling a timeout when the open is in goal to goal and they have limited number of plays left to control the clock.  Coaches also tend to like to keep 1 timeout on offense which is why both NE and Buffalo waited - so they could keep that 1 timeout in case of a sack or other issue when they get the ball back.

 

I think there is a lot to digest, but I don’t think McDermott was much different than about 99% of the other coaches and played it more aggressive when he could and tighter with the initial field position.

 

That is my opinion of course, but it seems to match what other coaches have done - including Belichek with Brady. 

[HomeskillitMoorman]

5 hours ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

 

Total Hot take and not even correctly written as to what happened - at least get the story correct before you complain.

 

The Bills used their second time-out after stopping the Dolphins on first and goal inside the 10.  Just exactly like the KC Chiefs did in their game.  They were the only 2 games in which a defense called a timeout with the other team driving late in the first half that I saw.  So they used the same strategy as the only other team I saw utilize a timeout on defense.  So oops - wrong #1 in the take.

 

Next paragraph - we did not run 3 straight times before passing.  Let’s look at the facts - after the penalty on the kickoff the Bills are starting on their own 10 yard line.  Most teams then have to decide do we go or do we slow play the drive.  On their own 10 within 1 score and getting the ball to start the second half - the Bills played it like the majority of teams and ran on first down.  The worst thing they could do is go 3 and out without taking any time and punt from deep in their end and give up the last second FG.  They ran again forcing Miami to use timeouts both times and run some time.  3rd down they passed for a first down and got out of bounds.  So 2 runs then a pass. Forcing Miami to use 2 time-outs to help prevent a Dolphins drive and getting the first down.

 

On 1st and ten they then get a false start and go back to essentially their own 20 and 1st and 15.  Now they just want to run the clock out - so a quick handoff to Shady, but he breaks it for 18 and goes out of bounds - now they are in legit scoring position to start to attack.  A beautiful completion to the 41 gives them a legitimate chance with 9 seconds left.

 

Here is where the criticism can come in - they did not seem to know if they wanted 1 short play to get the FG maybe a run or short pass or how they wanted to go forward and they waste their final timeout.  At that point I have to assume 58 yards was pushing his range - especially as we saw at the end of the game the 55 yard miss did not have 3 more yards - so 58 was not really an option.  After wasting the timeout - that left the Hail Mary as the sole option.

 

The real criticism is not being ready after the completion to the 41.  A 5 or 10 yard completion over the middle and a timeout makes the FG a legit threat.  Other than that he played it exactly like most coaches would have given how the game had played out, time-out situation, and field position.

 

Right now I think McDermott struggles because he has a young “gunslinger” QB that makes a ton of plays, but makes a ton of mistakes.  He half plays things to prevent a costly mistake, but try to score.  I see him getting more aggressive as the offense grows.

 

 

It's not a hot take at all, competent coaches optimize their team's opportunities. He didn't right there. As I've said, I'm not assuming we score with more time and I wouldn't have blamed McDermott if we had turned it over with more time and more plays to run. That's part of the game if that happens, but you have to give your team that opportunity.

 

McDermott sat on his timeouts when the Dolphins got inside the 10, he let a bunch of time go off the clock before the Dolphins ran that play and finally called the timeout with around 45 seconds or something left. There was no reason to do that. They're already inside the 10 with like a minute and a half and had all 3 of their own timeouts, they weren't in any kind of time crunch and we weren't helping them by calling timeouts. They could have called their own if they needed more time on anything. There is no disadvantage whatsoever to use your timeouts in that position. I'm all ears if you come up with anything.

 

If you want to say the runs at the beginning of the last drive were to make the Dolphins burn their timeouts...I disagree with the strategic view behind that but I can at least see the logic. I don't like being that conservative but there is some kind of rationale that you can fall back on there, which you can't for not taking the timeout when the Dolphins got inside our 10. 

 

As for the FG vs Hail Mary...I really didn't have a problem with that call either way, but I don't like your logic behind it. It's not because he missed a 55 yarder later in the game. He also missed an extra point, does that mean a 40 yard FG would've been out of the question there too? But it's a long field goal, no real issue for me with the Hail Mary after the timeout.

 

But yes, totally agree on the timeout. That was all because of indecisiveness. That's what McDermott struggles from. He's not prepared. His coordinators are not prepared. There are times when his bad management comes from his incredibly conservative nature, but sometimes it is because he just flat out doesn't know what to do. This is a big problem. It wasted a precious down. If we run a play with the timeout the way we should have, we likely still have the same two options if it's incomplete, or possibly a shorter FG if we make a quick play for a few yards. 

 

It's just inexcusably bad game management. 

[BillsFan130]

10 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

 

Ok so I have 2 points:

 

1.  You are saying it is ok for Belichek not to use time outs and be conservative there because they were up by 10 (3 after the TD) with Minnesota getting the ball to start the second half and Belicheck having one of the greatest if not the greatest QBs of all time.  McDermott though is supposed to be aggressive with a rookie QB and a bad offense in a 1 score game getting the ball to start the second half.  Not sure I agree with that, but ok - seems a bit backwards - I would think Belichek with Brady would be the more aggressive one.

 

2. Then let’s take a trip back a couple of weeks and see how NE handles a drive by Tennessee losing by 7 late in the second half.  Low and behold NE allowed the Titans to move down the field and use 3:30 minutes to the 2 minute warning without using any timeouts.  NE had 2 timeouts just like Buffalo.  At the 2 minute warning it was 3rd and 2 and the Titans get a first down to the 2 yard line, but Belichek did not take a time out there.  NE stops the first and goal run from the 2 and takes their first timeout after 40+ seconds ran off the clock.  Belichek then used his timeout and the Titans scored with 1:09 left.  

 

NE got a touchback so with the greatest QB of all time - they got to start at the 25 with 1:08 and a timeout.  Funny they got to the Titan 43 with 2 seconds left - did not kick a FG and Brady got sacked on the Hail Mary.

 

The 2 set-ups were nearly identical- The Bills took a second timeout at the exact same play and time as Belicheck in his game.  The biggest difference is Buffalo started at the 10 rather than the 25 and had about 15 seconds less, but Josh got them further than Brady and got off the Hail Mary pass.

 

Overall - could McDermott have done better - Yes of course, but the fact is he treated it exactly like KC did in their game and NE in their game - calling a timeout when the open is in goal to goal and they have limited number of plays left to control the clock.  Coaches also tend to like to keep 1 timeout on offense which is why both NE and Buffalo waited - so they could keep that 1 timeout in case of a sack or other issue when they get the ball back.

 

I think there is a lot to digest, but I don’t think McDermott was much different than about 99% of the other coaches and played it more aggressive when he could and tighter with the initial field position.

 

That is my opinion of course, but it seems to match what other coaches have done - including Belichek with Brady. 

I don’t remember the titan game so can’t comment on it.

 

NE got the ball to start the 2nd half though. It was a very quick 3 and out.

 

And I watch football every Thursday/Sunday/Monday and  I always see coaches call timeouts late in the first half to get the offence another chance. I can’t give a specific example because it’s such a common theme and nothing stood out of the ordinary by using the timeouts.

 

Regardless it was very conservative by Mcd and it most likely cost them a crucial 3 points in a very tight ball game

Edited December 3, 2018 by billsfan11

[Rochesterfan]

1 hour ago, billsfan11 said:

I don’t remember the titan game so can’t comment on it.

 

NE got the ball to start the 2nd half though. It was a very quick 3 and out.

 

And I watch football every Thursday/Sunday/Monday and  I always see coaches call timeouts late in the first half to get the offence another chance. I can’t give a specific example because it’s such a common theme and nothing stood out of the ordinary by using the timeouts.

 

Regardless it was very conservative by Mcd and it most likely cost them a crucial 3 points in a very tight ball game

 

I to watch a lot of games and I see defensive reams call timeouts to get the ball back to the offense just like the Bills did.  Typically the defense will use one or two timeouts- almost always leaving the offense with one timeout.  

 

I gave ave you two examples in KC and NE from similar situations where both used timeouts just like Buffalo did leaving the offense with one timeout even though in all of those games it allowed the opposing offense to run off one set of 30 seconds - having the timeout on offense is critical because it opens the whole field and forces different coverages than if you have no timeouts.  

 

It also allows the offense to run different concepts allowing you to work to scheme a guy open for a 20 yard gain just like Buffalo did.

 

What cost them the 3 points was having to blow the timeout after the big completion not the fact that they did not call it while on defense and I showed that with using NE and everyone’s gold star coach in Belichek that played it exactly the same as Buffalo right down to missing on the Hail Mary against Tennessee.

 

I know it is hard to accept that maybe - just maybe- McDermott played it consistent with many other coaches both offense like Reid and Defensive like Belichek.  Maybe he is watching and learning what they do and using similar concepts.

[BillsFan130]

5 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

I to watch a lot of games and I see defensive reams call timeouts to get the ball back to the offense just like the Bills did.  Typically the defense will use one or two timeouts- almost always leaving the offense with one timeout.  

 

I gave ave you two examples in KC and NE from similar situations where both used timeouts just like Buffalo did leaving the offense with one timeout even though in all of those games it allowed the opposing offense to run off one set of 30 seconds - having the timeout on offense is critical because it opens the whole field and forces different coverages than if you have no timeouts.  

 

It also allows the offense to run different concepts allowing you to work to scheme a guy open for a 20 yard gain just like Buffalo did.

 

What cost them the 3 points was having to blow the timeout after the big completion not the fact that they did not call it while on defense and I showed that with using NE and everyone’s gold star coach in Belichek that played it exactly the same as Buffalo right down to missing on the Hail Mary against Tennessee.

 

I know it is hard to accept that maybe - just maybe- McDermott played it consistent with many other coaches both offense like Reid and Defensive like Belichek.  Maybe he is watching and learning what they do and using similar concepts.

I don't know the scenarios in the game so I can't comment on the other ones. The example you gave me with the Pats yesterday though was a completely different scenario from the Bills dolphins game.

 

What cost them 3 points was there wasn't any time remaining... If they called a timeout on Miami's drive, they would have had an extra 35-40 seconds to operate. That part I think you need to accept. Sure the burned timeout did not help. But there were  much  bigger issues with the clock management

[Rochesterfan]

1 hour ago, HomeskillitMoorman said:

 

 

It's not a hot take at all, competent coaches optimize their team's opportunities. He didn't right there. As I've said, I'm not assuming we score with more time and I wouldn't have blamed McDermott if we had turned it over with more time and more plays to run. That's part of the game if that happens, but you have to give your team that opportunity.

 

McDermott sat on his timeouts when the Dolphins got inside the 10, he let a bunch of time go off the clock before the Dolphins ran that play and finally called the timeout with around 45 seconds or something left. There was no reason to do that. They're already inside the 10 with like a minute and a half and had all 3 of their own timeouts, they weren't in any kind of time crunch and we weren't helping them by calling timeouts. They could have called their own if they needed more time on anything. There is no disadvantage whatsoever to use your timeouts in that position. I'm all ears if you come up with anything.

 

If you want to say the runs at the beginning of the last drive were to make the Dolphins burn their timeouts...I disagree with the strategic view behind that but I can at least see the logic. I don't like being that conservative but there is some kind of rationale that you can fall back on there, which you can't for not taking the timeout when the Dolphins got inside our 10. 

 

As for the FG vs Hail Mary...I really didn't have a problem with that call either way, but I don't like your logic behind it. It's not because he missed a 55 yarder later in the game. He also missed an extra point, does that mean a 40 yard FG would've been out of the question there too? But it's a long field goal, no real issue for me with the Hail Mary after the timeout.

 

But yes, totally agree on the timeout. That was all because of indecisiveness. That's what McDermott struggles from. He's not prepared. His coordinators are not prepared. There are times when his bad management comes from his incredibly conservative nature, but sometimes it is because he just flat out doesn't know what to do. This is a big problem. It wasted a precious down. If we run a play with the timeout the way we should have, we likely still have the same two options if it's incomplete, or possibly a shorter FG if we make a quick play for a few yards. 

 

It's just inexcusably bad game management. 

 

 

I gave examples of other coaches doing it the same (including Reid and Belicheck) and McDermott did not sit on all of his time-outs - he had 2 to use and used 1.  Talk with coaches - many have shown they would rather have 30 seconds less and 1 timeout for their offense than the additional 30 because you can control so much on offense, but having the timeout is critical to force the other team to cover the whole field.

 

To your point - he ran because the Bills got the drive start at the 10 yard line with enough time that a quick stop would have given the ball right back to the Dolphins nearly in scoring position.  My guess is it would have been worse because if Miami had not called timeout- I think the Bills would of let the clock run out solely based on field position and the struggles of the young players on offense.

 

Once they got the ball passed the 25-30 yard line (4 plays into the drive) - they could open up the offense and the timeout allowed them to run a full offensive route tree and hit on a crossing route heading out of bounds at 20 yards.  Without the timeout - they guard the edges and make that throw much more difficult and you end up with dump offs and Allen running.

 

 

[Billsfan1972]

Actually how about examples where McD used the clock well, made a good challenge and trusted the offense?

[Rochesterfan]

3 minutes ago, billsfan11 said:

I don't know the scenarios in the game so I can't comment on the other ones. The example you gave me with the Pats yesterday though was a completely different scenario from the Bills dolphins game.

 

What cost them 3 points was there wasn't any time remaining... If they called a timeout on Miami's drive, they would have had an extra 35-40 seconds to operate. That part I think you need to accept. Sure the burned timeout did not help. But there were  much  bigger issues with the clock management

 

Yes they would of had 30 seconds and no timeouts - I think there is a bigger chance without the timeouts they are trying to run out the clock.

[Rochesterfan]

19 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Actually how about examples where McD used the clock well, made a good challenge and trusted the offense?

 

 

Since the offense has pretty much struggled - you will not see that.  

 

What you did see see this week and last week is that with Allen they are opening it up more than they did Last year - so I see minor progress.

 

Look McDermott is and will be a more conservative coach.  I do not expect that to change much at all as he moves forward.

 

I am just saying it is a mixed bag of how many timeouts defenses call and when to call them, but to say flat out the Bills did not use them is wrong.  The Bills used 1 of 2 and kept one for the offensive drive.

 

I would totally get the criticism if he had all 3 timeouts and they used none, but that is not what happened - they had 2 and used 1 on defense and the last one on offense.

 

I agree McDermott has a lot that he needs to get better at, but having a cruddy offense also impacts decisions.

[Spiderweb]

21 hours ago, Bill_with_it said:

This is an ll around bad thread. Too much hindsight. There is literally no way any of you questioning the end of the first half decisions by Sean thought the team would make it to the 40 considering the first half. Too many penalties and struggling to move the ball. Alot of the last call there was on the OC; numerous times theough the game Josh is looking to the sidelines motioning that the call needs to come in quicker. This game isnt on the HC.

Disagree. With the half running down, there is no way the Bills shouldn't have the play ready after the play before the hail Mary. Yes, this is a clock and game management failure pure and simple. The TO was brutally wasted. 

[Billsfan1972]

9 minutes ago, Spiderweb said:

Disagree. With the half running down, there is no way the Bills shouldn't have the play ready after the play before the hail Mary. Yes, this is a clock and game management failure pure and simple. The TO was brutally wasted. 

The clock was stopped, there was plenty of time to make a call and with a time out too for a quick 5 yard completion.