P-A-T-I-E-N-C-E

[Hapless Bills Fan]

3 minutes ago, Logic said:

You mean there are actually people out there who felt that what was here when Beane/McDermott arrived was a sustainable team model built for long term success?

Yikes.

 

Oh, come, that is not a reasonable summation of your initial essay.  Go back and read it again yourself; do you really want to make that argument that it’s either accept/agree with everything you said or believe the team was a sustainable model built for long term success?

[DrPJax]

15 hours ago, JMF2006 said:

We have 90 million reasons for hope in 2019

Not picking on you but I have seen this written so many times on this board that it is at a minimum disturbing , at its worst delusional , that just having a large cap number is associated with future success. I am not a capologist but I have read elsewhere that there are several other teams with just as much or even more cap space available next year. So how does that possibly translate to us filling every need on this poor roster by spending in free agency? Don’t you think other teams will be bidding for the same free sgents?  How many free agents are going to be available to cherry pick from? Do they fit the process players McDermott Cherish’s? Will Mcbean be willing to dole out several high money contracts just to repeat the cap problems over again?  So far he has hit on some fre agents but also missed on others so just having cap space is an empty promise that we have watched several teams including the bills make errors with in the past. Good teams are not built on free agency. New England has not been built on all freee agents. They sign a couple of significant players a year but mostly fill in the roster with talent they draft or take other teams castoffs and with great coaching they produce consistently. The team with the most SB rings , Pittsburgh, is known to build thru the draft and a high percentage of their drafted players remain in their roster. Compare that to the Billls draft history where most of our players are elsewhere ( many doing well after leaving buffalo , Lynch , Glenn , Gilmore, woods, Hogan , Darby , I could go on ). Yes it was before this prior regimen. But the book is still just being written with this regime. McDermott was here when we passed on Watkins and mahomes.  We will see how Allen , Edmonds do and I do think they at least look promising.  But cap dollars available mean maybe getting two or three top tier players at best. There will be slot of competing money out there from organizations that have been managed better than Buffalo has. I have watched here in Jax as they had a terrible roster , years of losing , yet they have turned it around with the right management and drafting good players as Buffalos roster has continued to become almost laughable. I have followed the team since ‘ 63 so other than the Polian years , I have nothing to make me strongly believe that even with a large cap space available, that will suddenly result in a dramatic turn around as many expect in 2019. I don’t understand why other organizations have turned things around quickly or maintained high levels of success while franchises like the Browns and Bills continue to be inept.   They will have to prove to me that having money available means success. Just remember tho there will be plenty of competition from other franchises will cap space. It’s not the size right,,,,it’s what you do with it.  So far the Bills don’t even seem to have a good motion in the ocean ! 

[Dadonkadonk]

20 hours ago, Buffalo Barbarian said:

 

 

 

Did we not go to the playoffs last year??

 

Why are so many acting like petulant chlidren??

 

Last year was used to get our QB, mission accomplished.

 

This year we're in the process of demolition and restocking this spring, right on track. Let's exercise some patience and let them build a perennial contender and not a flash in the pan.

 

 

 

 

There is a difference in being patient with the QB and MLB development. I agree with that.  I wanted Allen and I laughed after the Minnesota game when people were claiminghe was great and I laugh more now after a bad game.

However, the roster is worse than it was last year.  Even most of the returning players/positions are worse than last year - some significantly so.  They went from probowl LG to Ducasse.  Went from above average C to one of the worst.  Kyle should just retire.  He doesn't deserve a roster spot.  Same with Lorax.  

Most rebuilds should not get worse in year 2.  

[Chuck Wagon]

Here is my problem with the situation.

 

I'm perfectly fine with the rebuild that needed to occur.  I was fine with most every move through the end of last year.  McBeane had uniquely positioned us with 6 draft picks in the first 3 rounds of the draft (could have been 7 without the trade for Benjamin, but it is what it is).  We had the opportunity to add at least 6 highly thought of young cheap players into this rebuilding process, been terrible this year, likely had our choice of QB at the top of the draft and be sitting pretty able to surround a rookie QB with a lot of talent through FA and potentially 8 day 1 / day 2 draft picks (6 last year, 2nd/3rd this year).

 

Instead we gave up all of that pile of capital to add (best case) the 3rd best QB in this past draft, plus a linebacker (not typically an impact position).  That's not a rebuilding move, that's a "we've already got this team built and need to plug in these two spots" move.  So while I understand the need to exercise some patience, given all the talent we've lost and the situation currently around Josh, McBeane has to CRUSH this upcoming offseason.  That includes luring impact offensive talent in FA, to a place with historical difficulty adding FAs, with a coach staff no one is calling innovative and finding a way to fill the roster with talent in the draft using significantly less capital we possessed last year.  I'm skeptical at best they have the ability to pull this off given what we've seen.

[LABILLBACKER]

On 10/4/2018 at 1:46 AM, Búfalo Blanco said:

In the era of instant gratification with Millennials running amuck...? Good luck with that. Patience is sooooo 20th century, braaahhh... 

Exactly 

[Shaw66]

Talent? Yes, patience is required.  It will take few years to assemble the right talent, assuming McBeane can do it. 

 

Coaching, on the other hand, shouldn't require patience. Already in the second OC.  

 

You can have mediocre talent and still be well coached. 

[buffalobloodfloridahome]

On ‎10‎/‎4‎/‎2018 at 4:07 PM, SoTier said:

If their "plan" is to build a defense first, then why did they waste so much talent and draft capital on a first round QB who is being set up to fail because he has no protection and no targets and no running game to help him have any real success?  In case you didn't notice, their defense still isn't very good two years in -- and they've got numerous older vets like Kyle Williams and Lorenzo Alexander who are at about the end of their careers, so those holes will have to be filled next season.  So, when exactly do the geniuses bother to get some help for Allen -- or do they assume that because he was a first round pick that he doesn't need to have help, that he can "carry" the offense all by himself? 

 

My theory behind why they drafted a QB was that this was a once in a generation QB deep draft that doesn't come around often. I don't think they planned on or even wanted him to play this year especially without Wood and Richie on the line. Unfortunately Peterman who I had hope for was so incompetent he was forced into action. We have 90 million in free agency next year. We already drafted Kyle Williams replacement with Dirty Harry and we can find another DE/LB to fill the gap if ZO leaves as well. Next year will be a heavy offense driven draft where we need to load up on Oline and WR's/Playmakers.

 

[Trogdor]

On 10/4/2018 at 4:46 AM, Búfalo Blanco said:

In the era of instant gratification with Millennials running amuck...? Good luck with that. Patience is sooooo 20th century, braaahhh... 

In 20 years we top out at 9-7 three separate times. I see boomers losing their minds over 5 minute store waits, 20 years seems excessive for anybody. The Bills last won the division in 1995....think about how terrible that is. 

[GoBills808]

On 10/4/2018 at 12:39 PM, vincec said:

I don't understand where this idea came from that you have to destroy your roster and start from scratch to change the culture and start winning. There are plenty of examples of new coaches coming in and changing the culture without doing that. Just look at our favorite son, Doug Marrone for a recent example. He took over the Jaguars when they were 2-12. They immediately went 10-6 the next season and made it to the AFC championship game. They didn't clean house and start over. They kept the same players and got them to buy in and play well. I can see changing a few players who don't fit your scheme or something, but but gutting the entire roster is excessive.

I wonder if everyone pining for the Jaguars model of a rebuild is also willing to go five years w/ Josh Allen. Somehow I doubt it.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

On 10/5/2018 at 8:08 AM, Chuck Wagon said:

Here is my problem with the situation.

 

I'm perfectly fine with the rebuild that needed to occur.  I was fine with most every move through the end of last year.  McBeane had uniquely positioned us with 6 draft picks in the first 3 rounds of the draft (could have been 7 without the trade for Benjamin, but it is what it is).  We had the opportunity to add at least 6 highly thought of young cheap players into this rebuilding process, been terrible this year, likely had our choice of QB at the top of the draft and be sitting pretty able to surround a rookie QB with a lot of talent through FA and potentially 8 day 1 / day 2 draft picks (6 last year, 2nd/3rd this year).

 

Instead we gave up all of that pile of capital to add (best case) the 3rd best QB in this past draft, plus a linebacker (not typically an impact position).  That's not a rebuilding move, that's a "we've already got this team built and need to plug in these two spots" move.  So while I understand the need to exercise some patience, given all the talent we've lost and the situation currently around Josh, McBeane has to CRUSH this upcoming offseason.  That includes luring impact offensive talent in FA, to a place with historical difficulty adding FAs, with a coach staff no one is calling innovative and finding a way to fill the roster with talent in the draft using significantly less capital we possessed last year.  I'm skeptical at best they have the ability to pull this off given what we've seen.

 

So McBeane made a strategic decision that they wanted to build the team by starting with key pieces at CB, MLB, LT, and QB.  If that's how you roll and you think the right guys are there and you can pool your resources and grab 'em, I can't say it's wrong to go for it or that it's only sensible as a "team built, need this piece" move.  But it's dangerous, if you're asking said precious first round pick QB to play when unready behind a porous OL and with no one to throw to.

 

There really aren't one or three decisions McBeane have made that I look at and say "oh, those were plainly crap choices".  It's when I put all the decisions that have been made together - for example, drafting Allen AND not having done more for OL in FA/draft AND not having acquired a vet QB known to be able to play in the NFL AND not having made at least 1 move to upgrade the WR more than a $3M flyer on Coleman - that I start to see "suck soup" as a pattern.

[SoTier]

2 hours ago, buffalobloodfloridahome said:

My theory behind why they drafted a QB was that this was a once in a generation QB deep draft that doesn't come around often. I don't think they planned on or even wanted him to play this year especially without Wood and Richie on the line. Unfortunately Peterman who I had hope for was so incompetent he was forced into action. We have 90 million in free agency next year. We already drafted Kyle Williams replacement with Dirty Harry and we can find another DE/LB to fill the gap if ZO leaves as well. Next year will be a heavy offense driven draft where we need to load up on Oline and WR's/Playmakers.

 

Who says that this was a "once in a generation QB deep draft that doesn't come around often except for media draft mavens and draft picks' agents spreading hype?  Every single one of the top five prospects in 2018 had serious flaws, and because of that, there wasn't a consensus #1 pick.   Between 2000 and 2016, there have been four other drafts that yielded at least four first round QBs prospects: 2003, 2004, 2011, 2012.   Carson Palmer came out of the 2003 as the #1 consensus pick.  Eli Manning, Phillip Rivers, and Ben Roethlisberger all came out of 2004, with Eli being the consensus #1.  In 2011, Cam Newton, again the #1 consensus pick, was the only successful QB.   In 2012, only the #1 consensus pick, Andrew Luck, and Ryan Tannehill found success from among the first round picks*.  So, in these supposedly "extra deep" QB drafts, only 7 of the 16 first rounders were/are decent NFL starters, which is about 44%.   Since all of the consensus first rounders hit, only 3 of the other 12 first rounders were successful, which is a pitiful 25%, which means that how many highly rated (or more likely, highly hyped) QBs are in a draft class is irrelevant.  It's totally on the quality of the QB prospects available, not how many prospects are available, because most drafts yield only 1 good or better QB.

 

IMO, what is most troubling about the Bills draft in 2018 is that it appears that they decided to draft a first round QB well before they even knew what QBs would be available in the draft which suggests that they weren't looking at a specific prospect or two, but just "a first round QB".   That smells just like the Bills decision to draft "a first round QB" in 2013 regardless of the quality of the prospects just to placate the fan base.  In fact, the Bills signaled they were committed to drafting a first round QB in 2018 by trading away Taylor (in 2013, the Bills released Fitzpatrick just before the start of the new league year).  That the Bills treated the offense as an afterthought during FA despite the loss of Wood and Incognito and that after they drafted Allen, they didn't draft another offensive player until almost the end of the fifth round further hints that they drafted Allen primarily to placate the fan base rather than as the cornerstone of a 21st century NFL offense. 

 

I'll reiterate what I've said elsewhere: Allen is being set up to fail by the decisions the McDermott and Beane have made in the past and are likely to make in the future.   McDermott doesn't seem to value or understand offensive football, so I'm not at all hopeful that the Bills will invest either $$$ or high draft picks in offensive players.

 

 

* The best QB of the 2012 draft is Russell Wilson who was finally taken in the 3rd round.  Kirk Cousins, taken in the 4th round, ain't too shabby either, and Nick Foles, taken later in the 3rd round, is an excellent backup/average/low level starter depending upon the system he's in and the talent around him.  The second-best QB in the 2011 draft turned out to be second rounder Andy Dalton.

[John from Riverside]

So you could’ve waited taking a qb till after the first round? Is that what you’re saying

 

Oh yeah I’m sure of McD and beane would stake their careers on that

[NoHuddleKelly12]

2 hours ago, SoTier said:

 

Who says that this was a "once in a generation QB deep draft that doesn't come around often except for media draft mavens and draft picks' agents spreading hype?  Every single one of the top five prospects in 2018 had serious flaws, and because of that, there wasn't a consensus #1 pick.   Between 2000 and 2016, there have been four other drafts that yielded at least four first round QBs prospects: 2003, 2004, 2011, 2012.   Carson Palmer came out of the 2003 as the #1 consensus pick.  Eli Manning, Phillip Rivers, and Ben Roethlisberger all came out of 2004, with Eli being the consensus #1.  In 2011, Cam Newton, again the #1 consensus pick, was the only successful QB.   In 2012, only the #1 consensus pick, Andrew Luck, and Ryan Tannehill found success from among the first round picks*.  So, in these supposedly "extra deep" QB drafts, only 7 of the 16 first rounders were/are decent NFL starters, which is about 44%.   Since all of the consensus first rounders hit, only 3 of the other 12 first rounders were successful, which is a pitiful 25%, which means that how many highly rated (or more likely, highly hyped) QBs are in a draft class is irrelevant.  It's totally on the quality of the QB prospects available, not how many prospects are available, because most drafts yield only 1 good or better QB.

 

IMO, what is most troubling about the Bills draft in 2018 is that it appears that they decided to draft a first round QB well before they even knew what QBs would be available in the draft which suggests that they weren't looking at a specific prospect or two, but just "a first round QB".   That smells just like the Bills decision to draft "a first round QB" in 2013 regardless of the quality of the prospects just to placate the fan base.  In fact, the Bills signaled they were committed to drafting a first round QB in 2018 by trading away Taylor (in 2013, the Bills released Fitzpatrick just before the start of the new league year).  That the Bills treated the offense as an afterthought during FA despite the loss of Wood and Incognito and that after they drafted Allen, they didn't draft another offensive player until almost the end of the fifth round further hints that they drafted Allen primarily to placate the fan base rather than as the cornerstone of a 21st century NFL offense. 

 

I'll reiterate what I've said elsewhere: Allen is being set up to fail by the decisions the McDermott and Beane have made in the past and are likely to make in the future.   McDermott doesn't seem to value or understand offensive football, so I'm not at all hopeful that the Bills will invest either $$$ or high draft picks in offensive players.

 

 

* The best QB of the 2012 draft is Russell Wilson who was finally taken in the 3rd round.  Kirk Cousins, taken in the 4th round, ain't too shabby either, and Nick Foles, taken later in the 3rd round, is an excellent backup/average/low level starter depending upon the system he's in and the talent around him.  The second-best QB in the 2011 draft turned out to be second rounder Andy Dalton.

I’ve never quite understood this logic that a lot of posters have spread on these threads, that just because McD comes from defense, then he automatically doesn’t value/understand offensive football. What does a defense have to stop? Another defense? Of course not. Offensive football. So someone who understands D and is good at it, would have to by extension understand what types of offenses are currently “cutting-edge” and what sort of problems they present to a D in working to stop it at a schematic level; thus if you succeed, making you an opposite but equal “reaction” to the offense to be able to most effectively stop it. My point is, from a philosophy standpoint he should be quite understanding of what a good offense looks like—you hire the offensive OC to make the sausage that you may not be as up on, what goes in to the seasoning of it, Daboll’s been letting him down on that front obviously, which was made plain in McD’s postgame pressers this week. But oblivious to offense? Hardly. He’s a HC, and is fully aware of the need to be on top of both sides of the ball now. Otherwise, what’s the point of even having one? Go into a game with coordinators only?

[SoTier]

12 hours ago, NoHuddleKelly12 said:

I’ve never quite understood this logic that a lot of posters have spread on these threads, that just because McD comes from defense, then he automatically doesn’t value/understand offensive football. What does a defense have to stop? Another defense? Of course not. Offensive football. So someone who understands D and is good at it, would have to by extension understand what types of offenses are currently “cutting-edge” and what sort of problems they present to a D in working to stop it at a schematic level; thus if you succeed, making you an opposite but equal “reaction” to the offense to be able to most effectively stop it. My point is, from a philosophy standpoint he should be quite understanding of what a good offense looks like—you hire the offensive OC to make the sausage that you may not be as up on, what goes in to the seasoning of it, Daboll’s been letting him down on that front obviously, which was made plain in McD’s postgame pressers this week. But oblivious to offense? Hardly. He’s a HC, and is fully aware of the need to be on top of both sides of the ball now. Otherwise, what’s the point of even having one? Go into a game with coordinators only?

 

Numerous defensive minded HCs have put together good/great offenses.  Belichick is probably the most notable.  But there have been some other HCs from defensive backgrounds who have attempted to win by with strong defensives and run oriented offenses that didn't lose games.  The 1985 Bears under Ditka are probably the prime example, but this is NOT the same NFL as in 1985 or even 2005 when the Bears went 11-5 with the same formula with rookie Kyle Orton under center.   In 2018 when offense rules, and yet McDermott is trying to build a team to be competitive in 1985.  

 

McDermott's is the guy who makes the decisions on personnel, and these decisions say he's clueless or disinterested or both when it comes to the offense. 

• He was the guy who chose Zay Jones over JuJu Smith-Schuster and traded up to get him.
• He was the guy who decided that he didn't want Sammy Watkins on his team which completed the total dismantling of the most talented WR corps the Bills have had in this century -- and filled the Bills WR corps  with has beens, never weres, and low draft picks and UDFA rookies.  
• He was the guy who was okay with replacing two top notch OLers with backups and bottom feeders and trading away the best LT the Bills have had since they traded away future HOFer Jason Peters just because they had a rookie LT who played decently.
• He's the guy who kept Peterman and allowed McCarron to be traded away just because Peterman looked good against scrubs in preseason. 

If those four moves don't convince you that McDermott isn't the guy to build a competitve team going forward, I'm not sure anything can.

Edited October 7, 2018 by SoTier

[OldTimer1960]

On October 4, 2018 at 6:46 AM, Seanbillsfan2206 said:

I had high hopes entering the season. We definitely overachieved last season. Unfortunately this is the case. We weren’t very good last year and we’re not very good this year, but this is all part of the master plan. Trust the process 

Not sure how anyone could have objectively looked at this roster and had high hopes.  Before they played one snap, it was clear that the OL and WR positions were bottom 5 in the league from a talent perspective.  Never mind that They were going to have a very inexperienced QB as well.

 

Watching this team flounder is frustrating, but I'm not sure that there was really anything that they could have done to have better talent on offense other than not drafting Allen and instead getting some OL help.  Even then, there would not have been enough talent on offense to be competitive and then you'd still have to find a QB too - may still have to, but at least they have a QB prospect with physical talent.  Hopefully, he won't be ruined physically and mentally by playing with this woeful supporting cast.

 

[NoHuddleKelly12]

52 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

Numerous defensive minded HCs have put together good/great offenses.  Belichick is probably the most notable.  But there have been some other HCs from defensive backgrounds who have attempted to win by with strong defensives and run oriented offenses that didn't lose games.  The 1985 Bears under Ditka are probably the prime example, but this is NOT the same NFL as in 1985 or even 2005 when the Bears went 11-5 with the same formula with rookie Kyle Orton under center.   In 2018 when offense rules, and yet McDermott is trying to build a team to be competitive in 1985.  

 

McDermott's is the guy who makes the decisions on personnel, and these decisions say he's clueless or disinterested or both when it comes to the offense. 

• He was the guy who chose Zay Jones over JuJu Smith-Schuster and traded up to get him.
• He was the guy who decided that he didn't want Sammy Watkins on his team which completed the total dismantling of the most talented WR corps the Bills have had in this century -- and filled the Bills WR corps  with has beens, never weres, and low draft picks and UDFA rookies.  
• He was the guy who was okay with replacing two top notch OLers with backups and bottom feeders and trading away the best LT the Bills have had since they traded away future HOFer Jason Peters just because they had a rookie LT who played decently.
• He's the guy who kept Peterman and allowed McCarron to be traded away just because Peterman looked good against scrubs in preseason. 

If those four moves don't convince you that McDermott isn't the guy to build a competitve team going forward, I'm not sure anything can.

Would even the “GOAT” hoodie savant’s swings and misses along the way disqualify him in your book then? https://www.thesportster.com/football/questionable-moves-the-patriots-have-made-in-the-brady-belichick-era/

you can’t expect every single move to pan out. Also, these moves aren’t done in a vacuum. Scouting dept, GM takes?

[SoTier]

3 hours ago, NoHuddleKelly12 said:

Would even the “GOAT” hoodie savant’s swings and misses along the way disqualify him in your book then? https://www.thesportster.com/football/questionable-moves-the-patriots-have-made-in-the-brady-belichick-era/

you can’t expect every single move to pan out. Also, these moves aren’t done in a vacuum. Scouting dept, GM takes?

 

I don't "expect every single move to pan out" but some offensive decisions panning out would be nice.  I just love watching ex-Bills who weren't good enough to play for the Bills tearing up defenses on playoff teams like NE, Philly, LA, and KC. 

 

You obviously love waiting ... and waiting ... and waiting ...  for the Bills to build an offense that's NOT lost in the 1980s.  Enjoy the wait.