The Rosen Era Has Begun in Arizona

[DaBillsFanSince1973]

11 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Allen has multiple games of throwing for under 100 yards and probably should have been benched against GB or Tennessee (he was awful).  

 

But it as I said before, I thought Rosen would be further along and he hasn’t been.  But I’m not making any proclamation about any of these guys yet, except maybe Mayfield.  Hard to talk about how bad Rosen has been when our qb has a lower qb rating.  I will say that Allen is a real threat on the ground so at this point, I would rank him higher.  

because you feel he probably should of been? he wasn't benched. my point. the other kid was.  I wont say he's not had a bad game, I'm pointing out he doesn't nor has been as bad as the kid in arizona.

 

that lower QB rating you speak of, changes nothing when it comes to who has been the much better competitor on the field of the two, that clearly to this point goes to allen.

 

I'll make no proclamations either but I can say that I'm really glad the bills did not pick that kid in arizona.

Edited December 19, 2018 by DaBillsFanSince1973

[thebandit27]

14 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Allen has multiple games of throwing for under 100 yards and probably should have been benched against GB or Tennessee (he was awful).  

 

But it as I said before, I thought Rosen would be further along and he hasn’t been.  But I’m not making any proclamation about any of these guys yet, except maybe Mayfield.  Hard to talk about how bad Rosen has been when our qb has a lower qb rating.  I will say that Allen is a real threat on the ground so at this point, I would rank him higher.  

 

He should've been benched against Tennessee? It was a one-score game the entire game, and they ended up winning.

 

You wanted to see them shelf the rookie in a situation where he could manage a 4th quarter comeback win?

 

At least against GB you can say that (a) he played his worst game of the season and (b) it would've been a mercy (like Rosen on Sunday).

[Scott7975]

16 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Allen has multiple games of throwing for under 100 yards and probably should have been benched against GB or Tennessee (he was awful).  

 

But it as I said before, I thought Rosen would be further along and he hasn’t been.  But I’m not making any proclamation about any of these guys yet, except maybe Mayfield.  Hard to talk about how bad Rosen has been when our qb has a lower qb rating.  I will say that Allen is a real threat on the ground so at this point, I would rank him higher.  

Two out of those three games he did not play a full game.  One was the Baltimore game that he didn't start.  The other was the Houston game that he got injured.

[Doc]

Josh Rosen sucks.  He'll be out of football in a couple years.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

On 12/18/2018 at 2:12 PM, C.Biscuit97 said:

Their passing numbers are very similar.  

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/A/AlleJo02.htm

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/R/RoseJo01.htm

 

i also think the talent around them is very similar.  The Cards oline is terrible, Johnson lacks explosion, and Fitz is the only good receiver they have and he isn’t the same.  

 

I will say say that I definitely expected Rosen to be further along than Allen and that clearly isn’t the case.  So that’s good on Allen.  Long way to go and both will need to get their qb ratings out of the 60s.

 

Good post. 

The narrative coming into the season was that Arizona had, in Rosen, drafted a relatively pro-ready pocket passer who could read the field and make all the throws, but was limited in mobility while Buffalo had, in Allen, drafted a Howitzer-armed project with some mobility who needed to learn how to read the D and make decisions, and needed to improve his accuracy (that is, when they weren't even more negative about Allen).

 

The fact is, to date, Rosen and Allen are putting up very similar numbers as passers. 

Rosen is 56% completion, 170 YPG, TD/INT ratio of 0.71, AY/A of 4.8 and <1 TD per game while taking close to 3 sacks per game.

Allen is 52% completion, 163 YPG, TD/INT ratio of 0.67, AY/A of 5.3 and <1 TD per game while taking close to 3 sacks per game.

 

Stat mavens, of whom I am one, can not look at this and differentiate the "pro ready passer" from the "major project".  They both need to get better, much better, as passers if they are to succeed in the NFL.  Neither is out of the range of "rookie year" numbers some successful QB have put up.

To be fair to both, it has to be said they are both playing behind sieve-like OL without strong talent to throw to or much of a running game.  Rosen has the advantage in WR experience, but Fitz has clearly fallen off and without other talent, DB can cover him like a blanket. 

Allen has shown a 'wild card' of rushing ability no one saw coming.  People knew he was athletic, no one saw him being as effective a rusher as he's proven to be.  He must have been dogging it big-time at the Combine (or just not training for it).  To his credit, Rosen has shown more mobility than I thought he had - he's evidently been working at it - but he's nothing on Allen.

[BillsSB2020]

2 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Good post. 

The narrative coming into the season was that Arizona had, in Rosen, drafted a relatively pro-ready pocket passer who could read the field and make all the throws, but was limited in mobility while Buffalo had, in Allen, drafted a Howitzer-armed project with some mobility who needed to learn how to read the D and make decisions, and needed to improve his accuracy (that is, when they weren't even more negative about Allen).

 

The fact is, to date, Rosen and Allen are putting up very similar numbers as passers. 

Rosen is 56% completion, 170 YPG, TD/INT ratio of 0.71, AY/A of 4.8 and <1 TD per game while taking close to 3 sacks per game.

Allen is 52% completion, 163 YPG, TD/INT ratio of 0.67, AY/A of 5.3 and <1 TD per game while taking close to 3 sacks per game.

 

Stat mavens, of whom I am one, can not look at this and differentiate the "pro ready passer" from the "major project".  They both need to get better, much better, as passers if they are to succeed in the NFL.  Neither is out of the range

To be fair to both, it has to be said they are both playing behind sieve-like OL without strong talent to throw to or much of a running game.  Rosen has the advantage in WR experience, but Fitz has clearly fallen off and without other talent, DB can cover him like a blanket. 

Allen has shown a 'wild card' of rushing ability no one saw coming.  People knew he was athletic, no one saw him being as effective a rusher as he's proven to be.  He must have been dogging it big-time at the Combine.  To his credit, Rosen has shown more mobility than I thought he had - he's evidently been working at it - but he's nothing on Allen.

He does NOT look like a 4.75 guy when he decides to take off. Looked more like a 4.5 guy on that TD run against Detroit. Definitely the wildcard in this debate is Allen's unexpected video game rushing numbers.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

5 minutes ago, BillsSB2020 said:

He does NOT look like a 4.75 guy when he decides to take off. Looked more like a 4.5 guy on that TD run against Detroit. Definitely the wildcard in this debate is Allen's unexpected video game rushing numbers.

 

Agreed.  It's not just his speed, though he does have an unheralded "afterburner".  It's his awareness of the bodies on the field.  He is able to juke and sidestep and stiffarm and make guys miss.  It's like he's been watching film with Shady and catching his moves or something along with their stupid "swag" TD dances.

[BillsSB2020]

1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Agreed.  It's not just his speed, though he does have an unheralded "afterburner".  It's his awareness of the bodies on the field.  He is able to juke and sidestep and stiffarm and make guys miss.  It's like he's been watching film with Shady and catching his moves or something along with their stupid "swag" TD dances.

Agreed on the attributes that make him a far better than expected runner but also his ability to immediately accelerate. He went from 0 to 60 in a flash as soon as he decided he was going to run on the TD against Detroit.

 

A QB doesn't put up these kind of rushing numbers without some serious talent. It's not a surprise that he's mobile, but I don't think anyone saw THIS coming. Would love to see him stay in the pocket more, but he's gotta get it any way he can get it at this stage of his career.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

23 hours ago, WRONG JOSH said:

Allen is getting yards by running around like an idiot. It's not a sustainable model for success. He will either get injured or eventually be too slow after years of abuse. I just think it's funny that fans of the NFL's lowest rated passer are making fun of the 2nd lowest rated passer or vice versa. If it makes you guys feel any better, I think Allen is a better fit for our team because he can run around and improvise behind this horrible line. Rosen will have his starters back next year and his OL will be much better. I had Rosen and Mayfield 1a and 1b. I'll take the pocket passer every time for lasting long term success

 

If you characterize what Allen does as "running around like an idiot", you either don't actually watch many games or you don't understand what you're watching when he runs.

He's running around all right, but it's not at all "like an idiot".  He's got a very good slide, a very good awareness of the bodies around him and how to make them miss when he runs, a very good sense of the angles he needs to take to minimize the chance of a tackle, and a stiff-arm.

 

He may get injured, but it's more likely to be on a 4th-and-1 head-on collision or when he stays in the pocket and gets slammed.

 

It's not a sustainable model for QB success, though, correct, because Job 1 for a QB is to deliver the ball to his teammates and let them make plays.  Allen needs to improve at Job 1.

 

 

Just now, BillsSB2020 said:

A QB doesn't put up these kind of rushing numbers without some serious talent. It's not a surprise that he's mobile, but I don't think anyone saw THIS coming. Would love to see him stay in the pocket more, but he's gotta get it any way he can get it at this stage of his career.

 

I'd like to see Allen have a more solid pocket he could stay in.  I just hope Beane is committed to a serious upgrade on OL.

[BillsSB2020]

4 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

 

 

 

I'd like to see Allen have a more solid pocket he could stay in.  I just hope Beane is committed to a serious upgrade on OL.

No doubt. I was just saying it would be ideal to see more plays from the pocket. With this OL, he really has no choice but to move around.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

20 hours ago, BillsFan692 said:

Josh Rosen is seriously bad, I mean very bad.  We dodged that bullet thanks Bean. So glad myself and the other armchair GM's on this message board don't get to make the picks. The definition of a "Franchise QB" in my opinion is an exciting playmaker that always gives your team a chance to win whenever he is on the field. Personally, I believe Allen has that I've seen quite enough. 

I'm pretty positive in fact if Allen did not go down with Injury our team would have a better record than it does currently. Which isn't bad for the kids first season

 

...seriously?...way, WAY too early to categorize ANY of these kids from this class as "boom or bust".....if so, it's personal animus, asinine based.....but then again, by TBD expert proclamation, " 14 games in  is hereby defined as "a career and subject to any bust label deemed appropriate according to the by-laws citing our judgmental omnipotence"......"any and all opinions to the contrary shall be considered as treasonous, without merit and punishable to the fullest extent of the law with execution so favored"...........

Edited December 19, 2018 by OldTimeAFLGuy

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

Is this the Mandela Effect thread?  

 

[Augie]

6 hours ago, BillsMafia13 said:

Serious question, how many of JA's games have you actually watched?

 

 

It would appear somebody came in with a preconceived notion, so why watch? If you do watch with the built-in bias, you see what you expect. I’m not anointing Josh the savior at this point, but there’s a lot to be encouraged about. 

[BUFFALOKIE]

On 12/18/2018 at 7:37 AM, thebandit27 said:

 

Ok, well, what are/were your expectations of a kid that played 2 years at Wyoming?

 

I've said this before, but it's worth noting again: most people have no idea how hard it is to be a rookie--any rookie--in the NFL, let alone a QB.

 

When you come into the league as a rookie, you've been practicing, training, and competing from August to December as a college player.  When that ends, you immediately begin training for the draft, which is a 3-1/2 month run of constant workouts, interviews, visits, studying, etc.  After the draft, you have about 2 weeks to get your bearings before you start rookie camp--a process that includes finding a place to live, moving any family that will be coming with you, taking care of other life stuff, etc..  After that, you've got a week before OTAs begin, and that's when the off-season basically ends for NFL veterans. By the time a rookie completes their first NFL season in December, they've been in season-mode for about 17 consecutive months (and that's if they don't make the playoffs).

 

Read the above back to yourself, and then stop and ask: what did you really expect from a kid that was playing at Wyoming 11 months ago?

Good post.

On 12/18/2018 at 7:40 AM, WhyteDwarf said:

 

But all rookie QB's go through that correct?  Some play better than others?  Watson, Mayfield, Jackson etc.

That is just as true.

[CincyBillsFan]

58 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

If you characterize what Allen does as "running around like an idiot", you either don't actually watch many games or you don't understand what you're watching when he runs.

He's running around all right, but it's not at all "like an idiot".  He's got a very good slide, a very good awareness of the bodies around him and how to make them miss when he runs, a very good sense of the angles he needs to take to minimize the chance of a tackle, and a stiff-arm.

 

He may get injured, but it's more likely to be on a 4th-and-1 head-on collision or when he stays in the pocket and gets slammed.

 

It's not a sustainable model for QB success, though, correct, because Job 1 for a QB is to deliver the ball to his teammates and let them make plays.  Allen needs to improve at Job 1.

 

 

Good observations and I would add that Allen has taken his scariest hits while sitting in the pocket.  He has actually looked quite composed when he runs the ball and executes a nice slide to avoid the big hit. 

 

I slightly disagree about the running not being sustainable for Allen.  Sure, trying to run for over a 100 yards every game isn't going to cut it in the long run but Allen's ability to gain 20 yards on 3rd & 18 will be a HUGE part of his game throughout his career.  If on average he makes 3 or 4 big runs per game then he will be a difficult QB to defense. 

[BUFFALOKIE]

2 hours ago, Doc said:

Josh Rosen sucks.  He'll be out of football in a couple years.

This is the topic, people!

 

And I agree. I also think JR is a DB in addition to a chitty, weak, scrawny-ass QB.

Edited December 19, 2018 by BUFFALOKIE

[Hapless Bills Fan]

33 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

 

Good observations and I would add that Allen has taken his scariest hits while sitting in the pocket.  He has actually looked quite composed when he runs the ball and executes a nice slide to avoid the big hit. 

 

I slightly disagree about the running not being sustainable for Allen.  Sure, trying to run for over a 100 yards every game isn't going to cut it in the long run but Allen's ability to gain 20 yards on 3rd & 18 will be a HUGE part of his game throughout his career.  If on average he makes 3 or 4 big runs per game then he will be a difficult QB to defense. 

 

The way I would put it is...if Allen can continue to make serious gains in his ability to "hit the bunnies" accurately (the short 'gimmee' passes) and to read the D and know where the open receivers may be, his running ability will give him that "oh CRAP there he goes!" extra edge that Rodgers has.

But he has to focus on becoming more of a QB as his primary goal, because otherwise you get into the "make him be a QB" strategy on D

[BillsSB2020]

2 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

The way I would put it is...if Allen can continue to make serious gains in his ability to "hit the bunnies" accurately (the short 'gimmee' passes) and to read the D and know where the open receivers may be, his running ability will give him that "oh CRAP there he goes!" extra edge that Rodgers has.

But he has to focus on becoming more of a QB as his primary goal, because otherwise you get into the "make him be a QB" strategy on D

One thing I'd like to see in the playcalling as it pertains to gimmie passes is routes that allow the receiver to continue to run. Seems like we throw a ton of short passes that don't allow for that. 

[CincyBillsFan]

2 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

The way I would put it is...if Allen can continue to make serious gains in his ability to "hit the bunnies" accurately (the short 'gimmee' passes) and to read the D and know where the open receivers may be, his running ability will give him that "oh CRAP there he goes!" extra edge that Rodgers has.

But he has to focus on becoming more of a QB as his primary goal, because otherwise you get into the "make him be a QB" strategy on D

I agree.  But Allen has the potential to trigger a lot of cussing among our opponents fans as he turns 3rd & 15's into first downs with his legs. 

 

I suspect that once he establishes his ability to hit anywhere on the field with his passing game (he's close already) then his QB runs, while not used often, will routinely generate chunk yardage. 

[Roundybout]

On ‎12‎/‎18‎/‎2018 at 5:34 PM, WRONG JOSH said:

Allen is getting yards by running around like an idiot. It's not a sustainable model for success. He will either get injured or eventually be too slow after years of abuse. I just think it's funny that fans of the NFL's lowest rated passer are making fun of the 2nd lowest rated passer or vice versa. If it makes you guys feel any better, I think Allen is a better fit for our team because he can run around and improvise behind this horrible line. Rosen will have his starters back next year and his OL will be much better. I had Rosen and Mayfield 1a and 1b. I'll take the pocket passer every time for lasting long term success

 

Someone's bitter because they were wrong