thebandit27 Posted December 18, 2018 Share Posted December 18, 2018 7 minutes ago, WhyteDwarf said: Maybe my expectations for a rookie are too high, but I'll tell you, my expectations are only going to go up next season especially if they do indeed "take out the trash". Ok, well, what are/were your expectations of a kid that played 2 years at Wyoming? I've said this before, but it's worth noting again: most people have no idea how hard it is to be a rookie--any rookie--in the NFL, let alone a QB. When you come into the league as a rookie, you've been practicing, training, and competing from August to December as a college player. When that ends, you immediately begin training for the draft, which is a 3-1/2 month run of constant workouts, interviews, visits, studying, etc. After the draft, you have about 2 weeks to get your bearings before you start rookie camp--a process that includes finding a place to live, moving any family that will be coming with you, taking care of other life stuff, etc.. After that, you've got a week before OTAs begin, and that's when the off-season basically ends for NFL veterans. By the time a rookie completes their first NFL season in December, they've been in season-mode for about 17 consecutive months (and that's if they don't make the playoffs). Read the above back to yourself, and then stop and ask: what did you really expect from a kid that was playing at Wyoming 11 months ago? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhyteDwarf Posted December 18, 2018 Share Posted December 18, 2018 1 minute ago, thebandit27 said: Ok, well, what are/were your expectations of a kid that played 2 years at Wyoming? I've said this before, but it's worth noting again: most people have no idea how hard it is to be a rookie--any rookie--in the NFL, let alone a QB. When you come into the league as a rookie, you've been practicing, training, and competing from August to December as a college player. When that ends, you immediately begin training for the draft, which is a 3-1/2 month run of constant workouts, interviews, visits, studying, etc. After the draft, you have about 2 weeks to get your bearings before you start rookie camp--a process that includes finding a place to live, moving any family that will be coming with you, taking care of other life stuff, etc.. After that, you've got a week before OTAs begin, and that's when the off-season basically ends for NFL veterans. By the time a rookie completes their first NFL season in December, they've been in season-mode for about 17 consecutive months (and that's if they don't make the playoffs). Read the above back to yourself, and then stop and ask: what did you really expect from a kid that was playing at Wyoming 11 months ago? But all rookie QB's go through that correct? Some play better than others? Watson, Mayfield, Jackson etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bray Wyatt Posted December 18, 2018 Share Posted December 18, 2018 5 minutes ago, WhyteDwarf said: Yes, if he is surrounded with more talent, I expect more of everything from him. Not sure I'd want to go as far as expecting playoff's, but I want to see a higher completion %, more passes, more yards, better TD:INT ratio, and ofc more wins. I expect a franchise QB. You want that from him now though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted December 18, 2018 Share Posted December 18, 2018 1 minute ago, WhyteDwarf said: But all rookie QB's go through that correct? Some play better than others? Watson, Mayfield, Jackson etc. lol Jackson GTFO here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted December 18, 2018 Share Posted December 18, 2018 2 minutes ago, RalphWilson'sNewWar said: First, why would I include Pederson? My examples were of Offensive Coaches who arrived in their QBs second season and saved both of them (Goff and Trubiskys) from going in the bust bin and have them playing at Playoff level caliber (hint...both teams already have their divisions wrapped up and a combined record of 32-12). Pederson if I recall and Wentz both arrived with the Eagles together. So it’s not like the Eagles brought in Pederson to SAVE Wentz. Second, I didn’t even mention Coach McDermott so exactly how is it a crusade against him? I said the best thing for Rosen and Darnold would be to get an Offensive Minded Head Coach. I am more convinced that having a strong defensive minded head coach is very important for Allen and this team right now. Plus...McDermott has had enough success to not even warrant any thought of coaching change right now. Come on now. There's an important parallel to draw between Allen and Goff/Trubisky. All 3 had very similar starts, though Allen is probably playing a bit better than those guys did as rookies (not that that means anything; he's just a more talented guy is all). Both Goff and Trubisky made huge strides in year 2 because they were given a fresh, innovative offensive play-caller and got a hugely revamped set of playmakers surrounding them. For Goff, McVay came in and added Woods, Watkins, Kupp, G. Everett, Higbee, Reynolds, and Whitworth. For Trubisky, Nagy came in and added Robinson, Gabriel, Miller, Burton, and James Daniels. If Allen is given the same overhaul in offensive weapons, could we see the same jump? I don't know, but I sure hope they give him the chance. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gugny Posted December 18, 2018 Share Posted December 18, 2018 Just now, thebandit27 said: There's an important parallel to draw between Allen and Goff/Trubisky. All 3 had very similar starts, though Allen is probably playing a bit better than those guys did as rookies (not that that means anything; he's just a more talented guy is all). Both Goff and Trubisky made huge strides in year 2 because they were given a fresh, innovative offensive play-caller and got a hugely revamped set of playmakers surrounding them. For Goff, McVay came in and added Woods, Watkins, Kupp, G. Everett, Higbee, Reynolds, and Whitworth. For Trubisky, Nagy came in and added Robinson, Gabriel, Miller, Burton, and James Daniels. If Allen is given the same overhaul in offensive weapons, could we see the same jump? I don't know, but I sure hope they give him the chance. The question (to me) is can he succeed with McDermott/Daboll? Coaching has been, and is, my biggest concern with the future of the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhyteDwarf Posted December 18, 2018 Share Posted December 18, 2018 1 minute ago, Bray Wyatt said: You want that from him now though Can't say I've never been accused of expecting too much out of others. This is supposed to be a Rosen thread, so... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted December 18, 2018 Share Posted December 18, 2018 1 minute ago, WhyteDwarf said: But all rookie QB's go through that correct? Some play better than others? Watson, Mayfield, Jackson etc. Yes, all rookies go through that. And yes, some play better than others...it's almost like all of these kids develop at a different rate. Weird. And just for some house-cleaning, it's probably a bit disingenuous to be listing Jackson next to Mayfield on that list, and neither of them belong in the same universe as rookie Deshaun Watson. 1 minute ago, Gugny said: The question (to me) is can he succeed with McDermott/Daboll? Coaching has been, and is, my biggest concern with the future of the team. Daboll has really grown on me. His play designs have always been pretty good, but his play-calling has gotten much better as the season has worn on...I'm intrigued to see what he can do when he's given a whole offseason to work with players that don't belong in the CFL. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted December 18, 2018 Share Posted December 18, 2018 2 minutes ago, Gugny said: The question (to me) is can he succeed with McDermott/Daboll? Coaching has been, and is, my biggest concern with the future of the team. Food for thought: The dude could have a winning season as a rookie, with absolute TRASH around him on offense. If that's not indicative of successful coaching, then I don't know what is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhyteDwarf Posted December 18, 2018 Share Posted December 18, 2018 3 minutes ago, thebandit27 said: Yes, all rookies go through that. And yes, some play better than others...it's almost like all of these kids develop at a different rate. Weird. And just for some house-cleaning, it's probably a bit disingenuous to be listing Jackson next to Mayfield on that list, and neither of them belong in the same universe as rookie Deshaun Watson. I put Jackson on my list because I didn't think he had any business being drafted in the 1st round yet has taken Flacco's job and is 4-1 as a starter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gugny Posted December 18, 2018 Share Posted December 18, 2018 3 minutes ago, thebandit27 said: Yes, all rookies go through that. And yes, some play better than others...it's almost like all of these kids develop at a different rate. Weird. And just for some house-cleaning, it's probably a bit disingenuous to be listing Jackson next to Mayfield on that list, and neither of them belong in the same universe as rookie Deshaun Watson. Daboll has really grown on me. His play designs have always been pretty good, but his play-calling has gotten much better as the season has worn on...I'm intrigued to see what he can do when he's given a whole offseason to work with players that don't belong in the CFL. 2 minutes ago, Joe in Winslow said: Food for thought: The dude could have a winning season as a rookie, with absolute TRASH around him on offense. If that's not indicative of successful coaching, then I don't know what is. Bandit - I agree that Daboll's play calling has improved and become more consistent (committing to the run) and I'm hopeful that he continues to be malleable based on the talent he's got (or lack thereof) at his disposal. Joe - Good point, re: the lack of talent around him. I just don't know that it's a product of good coaching or that Allen is just finding a way. As Bandit stated, Daboll looks much better today than he did early in the season. I'm hopeful and cautiously optimistic about him and McDermott. I'm legitimately VERY optimistic about Allen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted December 18, 2018 Share Posted December 18, 2018 2 minutes ago, WhyteDwarf said: I put Jackson on my list because I didn't think he had any business being drafted in the 1st round yet has taken Flacco's job and is 4-1 as a starter. Well, you also didn't think that Allen belonged being drafted in the first round, and yet he's taken the starting job. Sure, he's not 4-1, he also didn't get the benefit of learning behind Flacco (and RG3 for that matter) or playing with a cast of playmakers that includes multiple 1st-round pass-catchers and a resurgent John Brown, nor does he play behind an offensive line the caliber of Baltimore's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhyteDwarf Posted December 18, 2018 Share Posted December 18, 2018 (edited) 2 minutes ago, thebandit27 said: Well, you also didn't think that Allen belonged being drafted in the first round, and yet he's taken the starting job. Sure, he's not 4-1, he also didn't get the benefit of learning behind Flacco (and RG3 for that matter) or playing with a cast of playmakers that includes multiple 1st-round pass-catchers and a resurgent John Brown, nor does he play behind an offensive line the caliber of Baltimore's. Well, lol, who exactly has Allen taken the job from! I see your points, but I'm still not sold on Allen as the future franchise QB. And I guess we need to stop, this is a thread for the other Josh. Edited December 18, 2018 by WhyteDwarf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Who Posted December 18, 2018 Share Posted December 18, 2018 2 minutes ago, WhyteDwarf said: Well, lol, who exactly has Allen taken the job from! I see your points, but I'm still not sold on Allen as the future franchise QB. Ahh, I'm not sold on you as a future poster on these boards, though you'll probably reincarnate at a karmic level above your just due. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrbojanglezs Posted December 18, 2018 Share Posted December 18, 2018 2 hours ago, eball said: How ironic! LOL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
87168 Posted December 18, 2018 Share Posted December 18, 2018 26 minutes ago, Joe in Winslow said: lol Jackson GTFO here Lamar Jackson is 4-1 as a starter, with the only loss coming from KC (of all teams) in overtime. it's ok to be wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted December 18, 2018 Share Posted December 18, 2018 16 minutes ago, Gugny said: Bandit - I agree that Daboll's play calling has improved and become more consistent (committing to the run) and I'm hopeful that he continues to be malleable based on the talent he's got (or lack thereof) at his disposal. Daboll looks better and more consistent as Allen as looked better and more consistent and as we have found a couple of young receivers who might not run full route trees but are better and more consistent running the few routes they are trying to execute than the worse and less consistent vets the replaced. I don't think Daboll was the problem at any stage this year. The problem was the players. As Allen has got better and the young receivers have come on the Bills offense is easier to call plays for because we finally have some things we can do well rather than nothing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan1959 Posted December 18, 2018 Share Posted December 18, 2018 2 minutes ago, 87168 said: Lamar Jackson is 4-1 as a starter, with the only loss coming from KC (of all teams) in overtime. it's ok to be wrong. He's also faced a defensive dvoa average ranking of 28 - literally 5 of the 7 worse defenses in the NFL, with a better offensive line and better playmakers around him 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted December 18, 2018 Share Posted December 18, 2018 1 minute ago, billsfan1959 said: He's also faced a defensive dvoa average ranking of 28 - literally 5 of the 7 worse defenses in the NFL, with a better offensive line and better playmakers around him ANDDDDDDD has a whole bunch of playmakers to help him, and an offensive line. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshAllenHasBigHands Posted December 18, 2018 Share Posted December 18, 2018 9 minutes ago, 87168 said: Lamar Jackson is 4-1 as a starter, with the only loss coming from KC (of all teams) in overtime. it's ok to be wrong. Yeah, but he's doing it running an advanced version of the wildcat. That does not make him the better QB. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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