McBeane's way of rebuilding makes no sense

[oldmanfan]

25 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

...we lose the first game, look more like Agway fertilizer and we're done....2018 is over.....so where are the 4-12, 5-11 or 6-10 TBD prognosticators?.....or the ones talking about the brutality of the schedule and perhaps 0 fer 8?....as painful as it was, can't have it BOTH ways IMO....sure it was ugly.....but...a major concern is McD, Daboll, Frazier and Castillo showed absolutely zero in their ability to adjust against what was known to be a formidable defense....NOTHING......how we lethargically got to the result is a BIGGER concern than the result itself......

I agree about the adjustments.  That's why McD is right when he says he has to review things.  Was it they didn't make adjustments, or was it guys either blowing assignments or just getting beat physically?

[Doc]

1 hour ago, unclepete said:

I agree but it seems like making the playoffs was in spite of themselves. Not to rehash old arguments but there were mixed messages sent with Benjamin trade and the Tyrod benching. If we wanted to tank we should ridden Peterman out for the year to see what he had and positioned ourself to get a QB without giving up as many assets. Not trade for Kelvin Benjamin. Not go into the year unsure about what Peterman brought to the table. 

 

If they were trying to tank, they wouldn't have signed anyone in FA, traded for anyone, and would have traded all their best assets.  IOW...they weren't trying to tank. 

 

 

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

Just now, oldmanfan said:

I agree about the adjustments.  That's why McD is right when he says he has to review things.  Was it they didn't make adjustments, or was it guys either blowing assignments or just getting beat physically?

 

...good question Oldie.....but wouldn't a goodly portion of that be evident DURING the game so you can make necessary adjustments?.......blown assignments or beaten phyically would mean in game personnel adjustments IMO....the "tape" is after the fact UNLESS you mailed it in early on......

[oldmanfan]

1 minute ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

...good question Oldie.....but wouldn't a goodly portion of that be evident DURING the game so you can make necessary adjustments?.......blown assignments or beaten phyically would mean in game personnel adjustments IMO....the "tape" is after the fact UNLESS you mailed it in early on......

Good point.  I think some of our guys up front just don't have the physical ability to stand up to the guy across the line.  I am mystified by Groy; a couple years ago he looked good filling in for Wood but he's just getting pushed around.

[njbuff]

If Allen is the franchise QB, then building a team will be easier.

 

But if Allen busts, bye bye McBeane and on to a new regime 123.0

Edited September 11, 2018 by njbuff

[Batman1876]

Their plan is pretty apparent agreeing with it or not is another question.  They drafted players who are expensive and hardest to find in free agency Such as a shut down corner, a LT a pass rusher a team leader MLB and of course QB. That is a good core of players to build around. As far as free agency we signed backups, role players and veteran leadership, no big money signings what so ever so what were people expecting from them? for the back up center we signed to play like a stud? 

2 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

The Bills led, or were near the top, in Rushing the past couple of years.  The problem is that 40% of that O Line up and quit in the same offseason, and the front office did LITERALLY NOTHING about it at all.

What did you want them to do? Who would you have cut or not have signed to fix the OL? or would you have avoided drafting QB and MLB? 

2 hours ago, Formerly Allan in MD said:

You build a team for success from the trenches out.  Building a dominant offensive line hasn't been a priority for the Bills in years.  Hate to say it but drafting a top prospect quarterback without fixing the line is a recipe for injury, loss of confidence, and/or disillusionment.  Hopefully, it won't happen with Allen but if it does, it's because we put the cart before the horse.

What happens if you get your line in place and then you aren't in a position to draft a QB? Do you reach on a lesser quality prospect? Find a serviceable veteran? hope some other team's backup is a secret star? 

[Shaw66]

4 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

Getting a QB high was an absolute necessity. Far from making no sense, it was the only move that did make any sense, except maybe bringing in Alex Smith or Kirk Cousins.

 

Calling it a waste is missing the point. There are very very few ways to bring in a guy with a legitimate shot at being a franchise guy. When you have one of those chances you have to go for it even if it's expensive. They had to get a guy who might grow to become the franchise QB we've needed for so long. Unless they wanted our run of prolonged mediocrity/badness to continue.

 

And yeah, OLs take time to develop. So do QBs. But it's a hell of a lot easier to draft a good OL even if you're winning than it is to draft a good
QB.

 

And yes, moving up delayed filling the holes on the roster.

 

It's worth it. Same as in house construction, building a good strong, stable foundation delays the building of the walls and the installation of the plumbing and everything else, really. But it's necessary to build that strong foundation regardless of the delay. Same thing here. It's necessary to bring in a legitimate potential QB because it's almost impossible to get one when you have a good enough roster elsewhere to consistently win eight or nine games. You never get the chance to draft a potential franchise guy. This is the only way to get it done, and also the smart way.

 

If we're rebuilding as you say (I'm not sure I agree, but put that aside), then you have to keep understanding what a rebuild is. It's not something you do if you want to have a great chance to win the year you trade up and draft your QB. You are sacrificing the short term for the long term. Which is a great idea if the long term is very successful, and true rebuilds increase the chances of extreme success.

 

What was your prediction for the year? Did you think we'd win eight or nine or ten games? People who predicted a lot of wins this year weren't quite understanding how long it takes to build consistent success when you're switching schemes and the regime before you put you in awful salary cap shape.

Absolutely dead on.  

 

And one more thing.   If the Bills had used their picks to draft top offensive linemen, they would have kept Taylor for one more season.  Taylor and McCoy behind a good offensive line would have been at least as good as they were last season, and maybe better.  That would mean having the 20th pick in the first round, and there's no way you can find a franchise QB.   Bills would have had no capital to trade to move up.   

 

2018 was the perfect time to make a move toward the top of the draft to get a QB.   As you say, you must take the QB when the opportunity arises, because those opportunities don't come along too often.  

[Green Lightning]

4 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

Getting a QB high was an absolute necessity. Far from making no sense, it was the only move that did make any sense, except maybe bringing in Alex Smith or Kirk Cousins.

 

Calling it a waste is missing the point. There are very very few ways to bring in a guy with a legitimate shot at being a franchise guy. When you have one of those chances you have to go for it even if it's expensive. They had to get a guy who might grow to become the franchise QB we've needed for so long. Unless they wanted our run of prolonged mediocrity/badness to continue.

 

And yeah, OLs take time to develop. So do QBs. But it's a hell of a lot easier to draft a good OL even if you're winning than it is to draft a good
QB.

 

And yes, moving up delayed filling the holes on the roster.

 

It's worth it. Same as in house construction, building a good strong, stable foundation delays the building of the walls and the installation of the plumbing and everything else, really. But it's necessary to build that strong foundation regardless of the delay. Same thing here. It's necessary to bring in a legitimate potential QB because it's almost impossible to get one when you have a good enough roster elsewhere to consistently win eight or nine games. You never get the chance to draft a potential franchise guy. This is the only way to get it done, and also the smart way.

 

If we're rebuilding as you say (I'm not sure I agree, but put that aside), then you have to keep understanding what a rebuild is. It's not something you do if you want to have a great chance to win the year you trade up and draft your QB. You are sacrificing the short term for the long term. Which is a great idea if the long term is very successful, and true rebuilds increase the chances of extreme success.

 

What was your prediction for the year? Did you think we'd win eight or nine or ten games? People who predicted a lot of wins this year weren't quite understanding how long it takes to build consistent success when you're switching schemes and the regime before you put you in awful salary cap shape.

One person's rebuilding is another's dismantling. They purged the team of it's talent (albeit big contracts) and replaced them with JAGs. The OL acquisitions are really terrible  and really have one skill player of note. Now it may work out in the long haul, but don't tell us this isn't a tank. The pretense we got better this year borders on insulting. I know it's a fine line, you don't want to admit a tank, but most of us get that a step back to move forward is reasonable. I expected to take a step back. I didn't expect to be B-slapped all over the field. As noted in the Outlaw Josie Wales, "don't p*ss on my leg and tell me it's raining."

[Batman1876]

2 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Absolutely dead on.  

 

And one more thing.   If the Bills had used their picks to draft top offensive linemen, they would have kept Taylor for one more season.  Taylor and McCoy behind a good offensive line would have been at least as good as they were last season, and maybe better.  That would mean having the 20th pick in the first round, and there's no way you can find a franchise QB.   Bills would have had no capital to trade to move up.   

 

2018 was the perfect time to make a move toward the top of the draft to get a QB.   As you say, you must take the QB when the opportunity arises, because those opportunities don't come along too often.  

I'd argue the last opportunity we had before 2018 was 2004, we missed that opportunity reached on Losman and the rest is history.  

 

[1ManRaid]

"It's too early to tell if Allen and Edmunds will pan out."

 

Ok sure, but wouldn't that be double for whatever rookies you wanted next year instead?  You're positive THOSE picks are guaranteed to pan out?

[Shaw66]

1 hour ago, Niagara Dude said:

I think fans are starting to see this guy is a total loser and gives away players for pennies on the dollar.  Like it or not Sammy Watkins is a talented WR and this loser gives him away for second round pick at the age of 23.  Terry made huge mistake hiring this plug

Did you watch the Rams game last night.  Did you hear what they said about Watkins?

 

I'm paraphrasing, but they said the Rams let Watkins go and picked up Brandin Cooks, a Belichick castoff, because Watkins can just go deep, and Cooks is a serious threat over the middle.

 

I was as big a Watkins fan as anyone, when he was drafted and all the time he was in Buffalo, but I've come around to recognizing that he's just a slightly shinier version of Lee Evans.   He has the tools, but he doesn't produce.   He played on a great offense last season, he was healthy, and he did very little.  

 

Fans always seem to think they know better than the professionals who run the teams.   Two successive GMs and coaches have said "I don't need him," and you still think he's some kind of star.   Maybe he will be, but so far he's been nearly a bust. 

[Doc]

7 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Absolutely dead on.  

 

And one more thing.   If the Bills had used their picks to draft top offensive linemen, they would have kept Taylor for one more season.  Taylor and McCoy behind a good offensive line would have been at least as good as they were last season, and maybe better.  That would mean having the 20th pick in the first round, and there's no way you can find a franchise QB.   Bills would have had no capital to trade to move up.   

 

2018 was the perfect time to make a move toward the top of the draft to get a QB.   As you say, you must take the QB when the opportunity arises, because those opportunities don't come along too often.  

 

Allen used up their 1st-1st rounder and both of their 2nd rounders.  Edmunds used their 2nd-1st rounder and their 1st-3rd rounder.  Who do you give up in that scenario?  And how many OL drafted in the 3rd or later are starting for their teams, and playing well?

[reddogblitz]

4 hours ago, T master said:

Every one is so up in arms because of the loss this past week i just wonder what would be being said if the O line would have only had 1 change like last yr ? 

 

The loss of 2 interior starters was the biggest loss you said that it takes the longest to get a O linemen use to his position well they thought they would still have Wood & Incog but things went south real quick so you can't blame them for having their board set plus i've heard Chris Brown say this year the draft stunk for O line personal ...

 

I would dare say too that Bean using 2 first round picks to get 2 first round players is a ton better than spending 2 first round picks to move up & get one first round player that didn't pan out !! Just saying Beans track record to this point looks a lot better give it some time before you start dissecting things before we even know what might it's only one game !!

 

I'm gonna disagree wtih this a little bit.  Sure, they weren't planning on losing Wood and Incognito.  But Wood retired on JANUARY 26th.  This was WELL before draft and FA.  they could have done something better on the Wood replacement but chose not to.  It's on them for bad decision making and player evaluation.  Especially when they have their new shiny franchise QB to protect.  I'll give you Richie who retired in August.

[oldmanfan]

1 minute ago, reddogblitz said:

 

I'm gonna disagree wtih this a little bit.  Sure, they weren't planning on losing Wood and Incognito.  But Wood retired on JANUARY 26th.  This was WELL before draft and FA.  they could have done something better on the Wood replacement but chose not to.  It's on them for bad decision making and player evaluation.  Especially when they have their new shiny franchise QB to protect.  I'll give you Richie who retired in August.

I think they felt Groy would step in; a lot of us did.   Why he's failed thus far is a mystery.

[Doc]

2 minutes ago, reddogblitz said:

 

I'm gonna disagree wtih this a little bit.  Sure, they weren't planning on losing Wood and Incognito.  But Wood retired on JANUARY 26th.  This was WELL before draft and FA.  they could have done something better on the Wood replacement but chose not to.  It's on them for bad decision making and player evaluation.  Especially when they have their new shiny franchise QB to protect.  I'll give you Richie who retired in August.

 

The plan to replace Wood was Bodine.  Not a great plan but a plan nonetheless.

[yungmack]

3 hours ago, QCity said:

This isn't a remodel where they are just replacing the drywall. They are completely leveling the house and repouring the foundation. That foundation consists of players like Josh Allen and Tremaine Edwards, and right now there just isn't much built on top of them (yet).

 

He's building this house the exact way it should be built (whether fans understand this or not) -- through the draft. Unfortunately, it's going to take time. It's a waste of energy getting upset over 1-yr contract stop-gaps like Vonte Davis.

 

So while the knee-jerk crowd is out there having a conniption after each loss this year, know this -- if Beane is right about Allen, he's already the best GM we've had in the last 20 years.

This isn't the 60s anymore. No team (at least no consistently successful team) does a "raze and rebuild" these days. Slow moving, multi-year doesn't work anymore. You absolutely have to hit on your draft picks and use that 4 and 5 year window to bring in your expensive FAs and to sign your own picks to extended contracts if they've showed you they're worth it. And the most critical signing (duh) is the "franchise QB." And to make sure that QB doesn't get killed, you go with the old cliche: You build the team from front to back, inside to outside. If you know Beane or McDermott, would you please pass that along to them?

3 hours ago, Dablitzkrieg said:

Just out of my own curiosity, what the hell do you know about building an NFL roster?

In my case, I wouldn't know how to build a 100 story skyscraper. But I do think I'd question the architect if he was building it on a foundation of hay bales.

[Shaw66]

9 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Allen used up their 1st-1st rounder and both of their 2nd rounders.  Edmunds used their 2nd-1st rounder and their 1st-3rd rounder.  Who do you give up in that scenario?  And how many OL drafted in the 3rd or later are starting for their teams, and playing well?

QB is BY FAR the most important position on the field.  When you see an opportunity to get a franchise QB, you have to take it.

 

MLB is a distant second, but it's still the second most important position on the field.   At the end of the second round, you get a Preston Brown.  In the middle of the first round you get a Smith, an Edmunds, a Keuchle.  

 

Those were smart team-building moves.  

[baskingridgebillsfan]

100 percent agree.  If you are going to draft a young quarterback you should give him some tools.  They spent 25 million on a.j. Star. Murphy and davis.  couple of million on some below average lineman.   While i think Edmounds will be a good football player , maybe a great one.  Did they really need to move up again.  They could have saved the picks and drafted two very good interior lineman.  Then you ask yourself why did they spend all that money on d.  The answer is the humble oh shucks coach couldn't put his ego aside for the good of the team.  He just had to add defense so he looked good.  Meanwhile they drafted a qb and gave him a heaping pile of shite to work with.   From the moment they pass on Mahomes every move has been a step in the wrong direction.   

[JohnC]

4 hours ago, T master said:

Every one is so up in arms because of the loss this past week i just wonder what would be being said if the O line would have only had 1 change like last yr ? 

 

The loss of 2 interior starters was the biggest loss you said that it takes the longest to get a O linemen use to his position well they thought they would still have Wood & Incog but things went south real quick so you can't blame them for having their board set plus i've heard Chris Brown say this year the draft stunk for O line personal ...

 

I would dare say too that Bean using 2 first round picks to get 2 first round players is a ton better than spending 2 first round picks to move up & get one first round player that didn't pan out !! Just saying Beans track record to this point looks a lot better give it some time before you start dissecting things before we even know what might it's only one game !!

Baltimore remade their receiver corps this year through free agency. Our receiver corps is one of the worst, if not the worse, in the league.It's understood that not all the deficiencies were going to be addressed in one year. But forcing our best blocker in Incognito to take a cut and essentially forcing him out made no sense. We could have kept him for one more year. In addition, all the offensive linemen brought in this year were at best backups. Being generous in assessing them not one of them is a starting caliber player. Without a respectable OL little on offense will work. In addition, if this organization had any intention of playing Josh Allen this year it didn't put him in a position to succeed because behind this line he is going to be battered. 

 

What's even more disturbing is that our defensive line can't generate a pass rush putting stress on the back line players. So when all is said and done on both sides of the ball our trenches are very shallow. And that is where plays are initiated. A major dearth of talent can't be hidden by any scheme. When you are so glaringly exposed you will predictably be exploited. 

[Batman1876]

2 minutes ago, JohnC said:

Baltimore remade their receiver corps this year through free agency. Our receiver corps is one of the worst, if not the worse, in the league.It's understood that not all the deficiencies were going to be addressed in one year. But forcing our best blocker in Incognito to take a cut and essentially forcing him out made no sense. We could have kept him for one more year. In addition, all the offensive linemen brought in this year were at best backups. Being generous in assessing them not one of them is a starting caliber player. Without a respectable OL little on offense will work. In addition, if this organization had any intention of playing Josh Allen this year it didn't put him in a position to succeed because behind this line he is going to be battered. 

 

What's even more disturbing is that our defensive line can't generate a pass rush putting stress on the back line players. So when all is said and done on both sides of the ball our trenches are very shallow. And that is where plays are initiated. A major dearth of talent can't be hidden by any scheme. When you are so glaringly exposed you will predictably be exploited. 

The line is in trouble, I think they knew that and chose to stop gap it this year, I'd expect it to be addressed this off season. I think there was no way Cogs would be playing now for us anyway, he'd be suspended because he has pending charges.