National Anthem Solution

[boyst]

Just now, JinxedBill1 said:

I'm active duty stationed in AZ.  Been in for 13 now.  Read my lips, no one cares about this in the military.  We have stressful lives and could give two shoes about what they do during the anthem.  We want to watch football to distract us from our stressful jobs.  Don't feed the media.

 

You will be forced to care. If you don't you're insensitive and racist also supporting hitler

[BringBackOrton]

Just now, HappyDays said:

 

How many employers would force their employees to stand for the anthem before their shift? It is more complicated than protesting in the work place. The players didn't ask to stand and show fake patriotism. The anthem has nothing to do with their jobs.

It doesn't matter how many "would" but how many "could."  Couldn't they all?  Couldn't Merrill Lynch put that in their employee contracts?

 

So if they could, then this is a non-point.

[boyst]

Just now, MAJBobby said:

 

How many where kneeling at the end of the year?  How many articles written about protest at end of year?

 

and How much did they really suffer still gaining a Billion in revenue from 13B to 14B 

 

so tell me again how this had nothing to do with 45 even after the owners even mention his mouth was part of the discussions. 

This has nothing to do with 45 because this is all about ignorance and fascism... This is about stupidity and people who actually have an IQ low enough to qualify to play in the NFL. 

 

You're obtuse, you're impossible, and you're just downright silly with no possible way to have an adult conversation. The levels which you support your thought maintain that of a Fourth Grade premise and it's insulting to those who would actually be able to carry on a conversation about this. So I just ask that you let this be, because it's well beyond your grasp and I'm fairly certain that you could recognize that. I'll let you borrow what crayon paste and glitter for your reply

[macaroni]

5 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said:

Well, you can thank Colin Kaepernick for dancing the line of raising awareness and being a disrespectful idiot.

 

 

Ahhhhhhhh .... I have my own hypothesis on how the whole thing started. Keep in mind that I have no idea what Kaepernick was thinking, or what was truly in his heart at the time ... but the whole "I'm protesting social injustice" thing just doesn't ring true to me. I know it's contrary to the media reports ... and I SHOULD take a mans word ... but.

 

If you'll remember Kap's "protest" originally started with him not joining the team during the national anthem and choosing to sit quietly on the bench by himself. In my mind that is contrary behavior by a man who's entire life was spent as a teammate, and contrary to a man trying to get a message out to the media. You will also remember the original instance of the "protest" was the week Kap was benched ... the only reason it got media exposure was to see how he was handling his benching.

 

I propose Kap's actions weren't as much as a social injustice protest as it was the team don't love me ... I don't love the team, I'm gonna eat some worms. When asked by the media WHY he sat on the bench during the team gathering for the anthem, fully expecting Kap to lash out at the team, Kap took the high road figuring if I said I'm pouting about being benched wouldn't sound so good, so he grasped at the headlines of the day (the police shooting unarmed/innocent black men) the media broadcast that and the protest "got legs".

 

Once again I could be completely wrong ... but I would have thought if the social injustice angle was REALLY a thing pre original protest, Kap would have discussed it (and his intention to protest) in the locker room prior to that game . Additionally, because the social injustice was and is real, he would have had at least SOME support of his teammates, and there would have been more than just him protesting.

 

Just my hypothesis ... could be completely wrong, could be right. But in the end the PROPER message was sent by the players.

[SouthNYfan]

3 minutes ago, Boyst62 said:

This has nothing to do with 45 because this is all about ignorance and fascism... This is about stupidity and people who actually have an IQ low enough to qualify to play in the NFL. 

 

You're obtuse, you're impossible, and you're just downright silly with no possible way to have an adult conversation. The levels which you support your thought maintain that of a Fourth Grade premise and it's insulting to those who would actually be able to carry on a conversation about this. So I just ask that you let this be, because it's well beyond your grasp and I'm fairly certain that you could recognize that. I'll let you borrow what crayon paste and glitter for your reply

 

I'm pretty sure there are quite a few NFL players who would disagree with your IQ assessment.

Sherman, Fitzpatrick, and Luck are a good start.

 

[BringBackOrton]

1 minute ago, macaroni said:

 

 

Ahhhhhhhh .... I have my own hypothesis on how the whole thing started. Keep in mind that I have no idea what Kaepernick was thinking, or what was truly in his heart at the time ... but the whole "I'm protesting social injustice" thing just doesn't ring true to me. I know it's contrary to the media reports ... and I SHOULD take a mans word ... but.

 

If you'll remember Kap's "protest" originally started with him not joining the team during the national anthem and choosing to sit quietly on the bench by himself. In my mind that is contrary behavior by a man who's entire life was spent as a teammate, and contrary to a man trying to get a message out to the media. You will also remember the original instance of the "protest" was the week Kap was benched ... the only reason it got media exposure was to see how he was handling his benching.

 

I propose Kap's actions weren't as much as a social injustice protest as it was the team don't love me ... I don't love the team, I'm gonna eat some worms. When asked by the media WHY he sat on the bench during the team gathering for the anthem, fully expecting Kap to lash out at the team, Kap took the high road figuring if I said I'm pouting about being benched wouldn't sound so good, so he grasped at the headlines of the day (the police shooting unarmed/innocent black men) the media broadcast that and the protest "got legs".

 

Once again I could be completely wrong ... but I would have thought if the social injustice angle was REALLY a thing pre original protest, Kap would have discussed it (and his intention to protest) in the locker room prior to that game . Additionally, because the social injustice was and is real, he would have had at least SOME support of his teammates, and there would have been more than just him protesting.

 

Just my hypothesis ... could be completely wrong, could be right. But in the end the PROPER message was sent by the players.

I agree its possible.  

 

Kaep also did other things to taint the message.  The voting thing, the pig socks.  If his goal was peaceful protest to raise awareness without being disrespectful, he went about it the wrong way and inflamed people against him.  Bad move.  And that's why the other players have had pushback.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

19 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

One simple question 

 

On Monday what is everyone doing?  Having a day of remembering or BBQing Drinking wearing their flag clothes?

 

....serving hot dogs dripping mustard & relish onto Flag-themed plates then wiping dirty mouths with Flag-themed napkins

[MAJBobby]

6 minutes ago, Boyst62 said:

This has nothing to do with 45 because this is all about ignorance and fascism... This is about stupidity and people who actually have an IQ low enough to qualify to play in the NFL. 

 

You're obtuse, you're impossible, and you're just downright silly with no possible way to have an adult conversation. The levels which you support your thought maintain that of a Fourth Grade premise and it's insulting to those who would actually be able to carry on a conversation about this. So I just ask that you let this be, because it's well beyond your grasp and I'm fairly certain that you could recognize that. I'll let you borrow what crayon paste and glitter for your reply

 

Nice Ignorant statement from you there. Wouldnt expect anything less 

[Cripple Creek]

2 hours ago, mrags said:

 

First of all. Thank you for your service. 

 

Unfortunatey where you are wrong is that the NFL has mandated that if you are out on the field you will stand for the national anthem. It is their rule and their company. And the players are employees of their company. And if they don’t like it, they can sit in the locker room prior to the anthem or look elsewhere for a new job. I heard the Hamilton Tiget Cats are looking for NFL caliber players nowadays. 

So, he’s wrong for having an opinion that’s different than yours? I believe his point was that he saw no disrespect, no point was made about the new NFL policy except by you.

[MAJBobby]

1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

....serving hot dogs dripping mustard & relish onto Flag-themed plates then wiping dirty mouths with Flag-themed napkins

 

Yep and the Hypocritical open Violation of the US Flag code. But yes Kneeling is disrespect 

Edited May 25, 2018 by MAJBobby

[boyst]

Just now, MAJBobby said:

 

Yep and they Hypocritical open Violation of the US Flag code. But yes Kneeling is disrespect 

Show me on this doll where those who love America hurt you.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Just now, Cripple Creek said:

Heresy 

 

violation of US Flag Code, anyway

 

[boyst]

4 minutes ago, SouthNYfan said:

 

I'm pretty sure there are quite a few NFL players who would disagree with your IQ assessment.

Sherman, Fitzpatrick, and Luck are a good start.

 

And are those the ones running their mouth or acting like fools?

 

Sherman is shrewd af and does his schtick as his brand. Nothing else. Dude is a genius and makes his stuff work. 

[MAJBobby]

1 minute ago, Boyst62 said:

Show me on this doll where those who love America hurt you.

 

So Openly Violation of the US Flag code is a way they show their Love for America. Ha ha ha ha

[Hapless Bills Fan]

3 minutes ago, Boyst62 said:

Show me on this doll where those who love America hurt you.

 

And using Flag-printed clothing and paper goods is still a violation of US Flag Code (as every boy scout used to know) and as properly interpreted as disrespect as failing to stand at attention facing the flag with one's hat off, before and after your snarky remark there, Son

 

But somehow I must have missed the great political indignation off of companies profiting and consumers using flag-themed disposable goods and clothing.  Nothing says "patriotism" and "respect" like skidmarks on one's flag-printed skivvies

[BringBackOrton]

Just now, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

And using Flag-printed clothing and paper goods is still a violation of US Flag Code (as every boy scout used to know) and as properly interpreted as disrespect as failing to stand at attention facing the flag with one's hat off, before and after your snarky remark there, Son

I believe they are just called scouts now.....

[MAJBobby]

20 minutes ago, Boyst62 said:

It doesn't violate it,

 

Sure it does. Everything printed by Hapless that i quoted is a direct violation of the US Flag code. But hey go disrespect the nation away

[boyst]

2 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

And using Flag-printed clothing and paper goods is still a violation of US Flag Code (as every boy scout used to know) and as properly interpreted as disrespect as failing to stand at attention facing the flag with one's hat off, before and after your snarky remark there, Son

Representations of the flag aren't violations of the flag act, plus it was a supreme Court case that overruled that code as illegsl

[HappyDays]

53 minutes ago, vorpma said:

If I want politics I will not go to a sporting event 

 

Okay well if I want to see a display of patriotism why would I go to a sporting event? They have nothing to do with each other at all. Like if every time I went to Tim Hortons they made me say the pledge of allegiance before buying my coffee, I suppose that would be their prerogative, but I would sure think it was stupid.

And has anyone who thinks these protests are disrespectful donated time or money to veterans' causes? If demanding professional athletes stand for the anthem is the full extent of your activism, I would suggest putting your money where your mouth is.

[MAJBobby]

15 minutes ago, Boyst62 said:

It doesn't violate it

 

i) The flag should never be used for advertising purposes in any manner whatsoever. It should not be embroidered on such articles as cushions or handkerchiefs and the like, printed or otherwise impressed on paper napkins or boxes or anything that is designed for temporary use and discard. Advertising signs should not be fastened to a staff or halyard from which the flag is flown.

 

 

so enjoy your violation of the US flag code

[SouthNYfan]

7 minutes ago, Boyst62 said:

And are those the ones running their mouth or acting like fools?

 

Sherman is shrewd af and does his schtick as his brand. Nothing else. Dude is a genius and makes his stuff work. 

 

You made a general statement about everybody in the NFL being dumb.

 

[boyst]

10 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

i) The flag should never be used for advertising purposes in any manner whatsoever. It should not be embroidered on such articles as cushions or handkerchiefs and the like, printed or otherwise impressed on paper napkins or boxes or anything that is designed for temporary use and discard. Advertising signs should not be fastened to a staff or halyard from which the flag is flown.

 

 

so enjoy your violation of the US flag code

Learn2law and enjoy freedom

 

Btw. What's the punishment for breaking this code?  Enjoy SCOTUS.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 minutes ago, Boyst62 said:

Representations of the flag aren't violations of the flag act, plus it was a supreme Court case that overruled that code as illegsl

 

Overruled the Flag Code? (I'm assuming that's what you mean by "flag act", as Flag Code is what I stated in my post you're replying to.)  Not as far as I know, but I'll be happy to entertain a link showing the contrary.  The Supreme Court struct down "Criminal penalties for certain acts of desecration to the flag" contained in the Flag Protection Act of 1989 (Oct. 28, 1989).  But the Flag Code is still part of the US Code as guidance to patriotic citizens on how to show proper respect to the flag of our country.

 

And yes, representations of the flag on clothing and disposable items are violations of the US Flag Code:

§176. Respect for flag

No disrespect should be shown to the flag of the United States of America; the flag should not be dipped to any person or thing. Regimental colors, State flags, and organization or institutional flags are to be dipped as a mark of honor.

• (a) The flag should never be displayed with the union down, except as a signal of dire distress in instances of extreme danger to life or property.
• (b) The flag should never touch anything beneath it, such as the ground, the floor, water, or merchandise.
• (c) The flag should never be carried flat or horizontally, but always aloft and free.
• (d) The flag should never be used as wearing apparel, bedding, or drapery. It should never be festooned, drawn back, nor up, in folds, but always allowed to fall free. Bunting of blue, white, and red, always arranged with the blue above, the white in the middle, and the red below, should be used for covering a speaker's desk, draping the front of the platform, and for decoration in general.
• (e) The flag should never be fastened, displayed, used, or stored in such a manner as to permit it to be easily torn, soiled, or damaged in any way.
• (f) The flag should never be used as a covering for a ceiling.
• (g) The flag should never have placed upon it, nor on any part of it, nor attached to it any mark, insignia, letter, word, figure, design, picture, or drawing of any nature.
• (h) The flag should never be used as a receptacle for receiving, holding, carrying, or delivering anything.
• (i) The flag should never be used for advertising purposes in any manner whatsoever. It should not be embroidered on such articles as cushions or handkerchiefs and the like, printed or otherwise impressed on paper napkins or boxes or anything that is designed for temporary use and discard.

[NoSaint]

4 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Okay well if I want to see a display of patriotism why would I go to a sporting event? They have nothing to do with each other at all. Like if every time I went to Tim Hortons they made me say the pledge of allegiance before buying my coffee, I suppose that would be their prerogative, but I would sure think it was stupid.

And has anyone who thinks these protests are disrespectful donated time or money to veterans' causes? If demanding professional athletes stand for the anthem is the full extent of your activism, I would suggest putting your money where your mouth is.

 

Ding ding ding.... 

 

those saying tvey they don’t want politics at sporting events so you better stand and sing the anthem are just saying they don’t want anything challenging their own politics at the event. The anthem is inherently very political and totally unnecessary- but they will fight to keep it there.  

[MAJBobby]

2 minutes ago, Boyst62 said:

Learn2law and enjoy freedom

 

Btw. What's the punishment for breaking this code?  Enjoy SCOTUS.

 

Disrepect that Flag Monday. 

[boyst]

1 minute ago, NoSaint said:

 

Ding ding ding.... 

 

those saying tvey they don’t want politics at sporting events so you better stand and sing the anthem are just saying they don’t want anything challenging their own politics at the event. The anthem is inherently very political and totally unnecessary- but they will fight to keep it there.  

In 89 all of that was essentially struck down by SCOTUS. Basically, and imo unfortunately, those laws are now antiquated relics of decorum much of this country has lost but the flag code was neutered and rendered useless with that verdict.

2 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

 

Disrepect that Flag Monday. 

I live in Canada, dumdum

[BringBackOrton]

3 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

 

Ding ding ding.... 

 

those saying tvey they don’t want politics at sporting events so you better stand and sing the anthem are just saying they don’t want anything challenging their own politics at the event. The anthem is inherently very political and totally unnecessary- but they will fight to keep it there.  

The anthem somehow isn't a big problem in the NBA, or NHL, or MLB.  

[MAJBobby]

Just now, Boyst62 said:

In 89 all of that was essentially struck down by SCOTUS. Basically, and imo unfortunately, those laws are now antiquated relics of decorum much of this country has lost but the flag code was neutered and rendered useless with that verdict.

I live in Canada, dumdum

 

Even more Hypocritical 

[HappyDays]

29 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said:

It doesn't matter how many "would" but how many "could."  Couldn't they all?  Couldn't Merrill Lynch put that in their employee contracts?

 

So if they could, then this is a non-point.

 

I disagree. They could obligate it if they wanted, but I'm going to say that it's dumb. I don't think forced patriotism is what America stands for. We weren't founded on symbols and songs, we were founded on the notion of individual freedoms. That's just my take on it. I respect people who feel the anthem is important, but I wish they could likewise respect the people that don't.

[NoSaint]

Just now, Boyst62 said:

In 89 all of that was essentially struck down by SCOTUS. Basically, and imo unfortunately, those laws are now antiquated relics of decorum much of this country has lost but the flag code was neutered and rendered useless with that verdict.

I live in Canada, dumdum

 

I’m not arguing any flag code related points. Simply that it’s silly to pretend the status quo wasn’t already political. 

 

Though regardless the teeth in the code- if the argument is players must respect the flag but the person espousing that argument doesn’t follow the same codes of respect - it’s a tiny bit hypocritical, no? Not that I think either should be punished but conversationally we can agree it’s a bit of a jerk move to cite it against someone else but not follow it yourself?

[BringBackOrton]

Just now, HappyDays said:

 

I disagree. They could obligate it if they wanted, but I'm going to say that it's dumb. I don't think forced patriotism is what America stands for. We weren't founded on symbols and songs, we were founded on the notion of individual freedoms. That's just my take on it. I respect people who feel the anthem is important, but I wish they could likewise respect the people that don't.

 

This is all that matters.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

7 minutes ago, Boyst62 said:

Learn2law and enjoy freedom

Btw. What's the punishment for breaking this code?  Enjoy SCOTUS.

 

There's a distinction between "overturning the Flag Code" and overturning penalties for violating it. 

The Flag Code, as guidance for patriotic behavior that respects the US Flag, is still there.

 

There are no longer penalties for burning a flag, or dropping it to the ground and trampling on it, or printing the flag on a plate, napkin, or underwear - or kneeling during the National Anthem for that matter - the point stands that these are all violations of the Code that provides guidance on how to to respect our Flag.

[LABILLBACKER]

3 hours ago, Jeetz1231 said:

I know I am probably in the minority, but I am a veteran of the US military and I don't personally feel like the kneeling is disrespectful to the flag or my brothers and sisters who served and are still serving. If anything it shows the freedoms we have in this country as individuals. The protest is for racial injustice when dealing with police, they are using their right to peaceful protest. I personally would prefer that they stood for the anthem, but at the end of the day we live in a country that gives them the right to kneel for the anthem, and that is what makes this country great.

well said and so true....its called the 1st amendment!

[HappyDays]

26 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said:

Kaep also did other things to taint the message.  The voting thing, the pig socks.  If his goal was peaceful protest to raise awareness without being disrespectful, he went about it the wrong way and inflamed people against him.  Bad move

 

I definitely agree with that. He lost a lot of people when he wore those socks. I thought his protest was meant to be respectful but he turned it inflammatory for no reason.

[DC Tom]

Here's a solution: let players make their own choice.

 

Because what's more un-American: kneeling during the anthem, or forcing people to stand during the anthem?

 

Edit: I should add that of course they should be punished for it.  Not severely, just a nominal fine.  Just because: if it's permitted, then it's not a protest.

Edited May 25, 2018 by DC Tom

[Marv's Neighbor]

3 hours ago, Jeetz1231 said:

I know I am probably in the minority, but I am a veteran of the US military and I don't personally feel like the kneeling is disrespectful to the flag or my brothers and sisters who served and are still serving. If anything it shows the freedoms we have in this country as individuals. The protest is for racial injustice when dealing with police, they are using their right to peaceful protest. I personally would prefer that they stood for the anthem, but at the end of the day we live in a country that gives them the right to kneel for the anthem, and that is what makes this country great.

.The "solution" is, there is no Solution!

 

 The league screwed up by not removing this option when it first began.  People will always have their own "rights" and feelings BUT, as with any other job, they should be left outside the work place.  If you want to kneel, or hold your hands up, etc., do it on your own time, away from the work place.  Your contract and team status demand that you properly represent your team, not your own individual views, during the time that the team is paying you.

[Magox]

1 minute ago, LABILLBACKER said:

well said and so true....its called the 1st amendment!

 

The first amendment in this case does not apply.

 

Quote

The right to freedom of speech is fundamental and is one of our most cherished rights, yet it is not absolute.  Federal free speech protections apply only to the government.  The First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, for example, does not apply to private employers. Generally speaking, private sector employees are not entitled to First Amendment free speech protection, even when speaking about job-related matters in the course of their employment duties results in adverse employment action.  For example, employers can prohibit employees from engaging in speech during work time that is not work-related.  Similarly, employers must take action against employees who engage in speech that would violate an anti-harassment policy or create a hostile work environment, and private employers have every right to regulate or prohibit any category of “unprotected” speech such as “fighting words,” offensive speech or obscenity. 

 

For those of you making the first amendment argument, you have no case.

[BringBackOrton]

1 minute ago, DC Tom said:

Here's a solution: let players make their own choice.

 

Because what's more un-American: kneeling during the anthem, or forcing people to stand during the anthem?

Nothing is more American than a business operating in any way that they deem fit.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

9 minutes ago, Boyst62 said:

In 89 all of that was essentially struck down by SCOTUS. Basically, and imo unfortunately, those laws are now antiquated relics of decorum much of this country has lost but the flag code was neutered and rendered useless with that verdict.

I live in Canada

 

Didn't know there was a town of that name in NC

 

Broader general principle: are any Federal Codes (CFR, code of Federal Regulations) without explicit penalties useless?

 

There are actually a lot of them - for example there's a lot of CFR about how to be a pilot, and how to be an air traffic controller, that don't have explicit penalties for violation (some do, some don't).  They're a guide to proper behavior.

 

Same thing with the Flag Code in my view - it's a guide to proper patriotic treatment of the Flag of our Country to show respect.  But one aspect is being trumpeted about as a huge political issue while other aspects (just as disrespectful or more IMO) are being ignored.

 

But if you take the position that Federal Codes without explicit penalties are useless or meaningless, obviously that'd be the first point where we disagree.

[DC Tom]

1 minute ago, BringBackOrton said:

Nothing is more American than a business operating in any way that they deem fit.

 

I agree.  I also think that protesting a country that affords you the opportunity to make millions of dollars playing a game is pretty silly.  

 

Ultimately, I think this whole story is overblown nonsense, and on my "**** to worry about" list is somewhere back on page 137, after "toenail fungus" and "blogging about that cloud I once saw that looked like Ernest Borgnine."