Why the Allen project may be different

[Skins Malone]

1 minute ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

 

My apologies for my part in any confusion.  I was following up on the prior poster who made the Ryan Leaf reference. I thought it was kind of an odd leap and was really just goofing around with that.

 

i was disappointed in the selection of JA but to be blunt I have no :/-$ing clue about any of these guys other than what I read. I watch the videos as well, but quite a bit of the context is lost on me because I know very little about x and o, pro style offense etc. Once he was selected, I read what I could, understood a bit of his story and think it's going to be fun watching him develop.  He does indeed seem like a good kid, and let's hope for the best. 

Oh okay i didnt see the other post.  And hey everyone has a right to their opinion..i get why people are hesitant about Allen.  For me sense Rosen was the only QB on the board with Allen when we picked..the other two QBs dont come into play..Its really should we have taken Rosen or Allen.  And i have no issue with them taking Allen then.  Rosen is polished but hes soft.  Allen imo is everything you want as the face or your franchise as well...except for stupid tweets of course.  Like you i just hope he works out.  Really hope.

[greeneblitz]

7 hours ago, davspo said:

As hard as it is going to be to watch, (especially if Mccarron does not do well), the best thing to do is let him sit, watch and learn until at least next year.  

 

why? seems to me the Bills don't see it this way, I 'm pretty sure you guys that say this are just parroting what you here from talking heads and they just parrot from each other, I see nothing about his game that says he would benifit from sitting and watching AJ McCarron or Nathan Peterman.

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

15 minutes ago, Skins Malone said:

Oh okay i didnt see the other post.  And hey everyone has a right to their opinion..i get why people are hesitant about Allen.  For me sense Rosen was the only QB on the board with Allen when we picked..the other two QBs dont come into play..Its really should we have taken Rosen or Allen.  And i have no issue with them taking Allen then.  Rosen is polished but hes soft.  Allen imo is everything you want as the face or your franchise as well...except for stupid tweets of course.  Like you i just hope he works out.  Really hope.

The stupid tweets in and of themselves are much ado about nothing. I'd think if they were an indicator of his true feelings at age 21 or 22, they wouldn't have to go back to tweets he sent as a bored kid from Mrs. Jacobs's 4th period History of Western Civ class. His recent teammates, including one currently on the bills, seem to think highly of him. Add to that the mass marketing of Eminem and Dr Dre rap music, and its little surprise a kid could stumble into a controversy like this.  

 

I felt the same as you about Rosen, though less about him being soft, more about him being overly arrogant.  I get the argument that how he carries himself might be indicative of a true leader of men, but I think not every know it all ends up as an effective leader.  Now of course I have to hope he's an abject failure because we passed on him.  I'm small minded that way. 

[Andy1]

I think the Allen project may be different too. The kid is undeveloped, has the intelligence to play the position, with an incredible natural ability to throw a football. Physically, he is a late bloomer who is still developing. He can make throws that very few people in the world can make. He does play too much hero ball at times which will need to be reigned in as he learns what he can and can't do in the NFL. His feet are a mess that cause him problems at times too - that needs to be fixed. I think he truly loves the game - when he throws in interception, he is going all out to tackle the opponent. After being told no repeatedly by colleges, he still had the belief in himself and love for the game to keep pushing. I just hope the Bills staff know how to develop him and just as important, us fans need to be patient with this project. He will make mistakes along the way, but I think the longterm payoff can be great. 

[mannc]

4 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Let’s be honest.  It just comes down to blind hope. All evidence thus far have not shown a nfl franchise qb.  

What EVIDENCE???? The guy hasn’t even attended his first NFL practice, FFS!

[K-9]

12 hours ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

i wondered about that.  Then I thought maybe there was a 2 decade moratorium on looking back. Then I remembered Ryan Leaf was mentioned and noted he was drafted in 98.  After I cried a bit realizing 20 years of my own life has up and gone since Ryan Leaf was drafted,  I got back to wondering about 1998.  I was going to look at 1997, but I was so depressed thinking Josh Allen is destined to be Ryan Leaf, I  just put on some Dave Matthews, sat in a dark room and pondered how cruel life can be for a Bills fan. 

 

i hope he's not Ryan Leaf. 

Name one personality trait that Allen has in common with Leaf. Leaf was an arrogant, cocky, "me-first", immature jerk and when things became tougher for him, when he actually had to work at applying his craft, he checked out. When has Allen ever displayed any of that? 

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

May 1, 2018 12:33 am

Bills' Josh Allen: Will need to work his way up

by RotoWire Staff | RotoWire

GM Brandon Beane said Allen will start out as the No. 3 quarterback behind AJ McCarron and Nathan Peterman at the start of spring and summer work, but didn't rule out that pecking order changing, Jay Skurski of The Buffalo News reports.

 

"Everything's a competition here," Beane said Monday. "He will come in as the No. 3. I think Nathan and AJ are going to be well ahead of him. Even Nathan, just being Year 2, it's a huge difference being in a pro system and all of what goes with it. Even though it's a new offensive coordinator here and they're only a few weeks ahead by the time Josh gets here, they're going to be further along than even three weeks ahead. So Josh has a lot of catching up to do from that standpoint, but if we wins the job, he wins the job. We're not going to hold him back if he's clearly the best guy for us."

 

The takeaway from the last week is that the Bills love Allen's upside and where he might take the franchise, but they're also not going to be one of those teams that simply hands a promising quarterback the top job on Day 1.

Edited May 3, 2018 by ShadyBillsFan

[GG]

26 minutes ago, K-9 said:

Name one personality trait that Allen has in common with Leaf. Leaf was an arrogant, cocky, "me-first", immature jerk and when things became tougher for him, when he actually had to work at applying his craft, he checked out. When has Allen ever displayed any of that? 

 

A moment stands out to me when Allen & Edmunds both walked into OBD for the first time.  Allen deferred to Edmunds to speak first.  I can't see Leaf doing that.

[maryland-bills-fan]

15 hours ago, Fadingpain said:

No first round QB drafted since 1998 that had started less than 30 games at the collegiate level and completed less than 60% of their passes has been successful in the NFL.

 

Allen started 27 games and has a career completion percentage of 56.2%.

 

His stats and the data suggest he'll be something like a Ryan Leaf type.

 

 

No QB with  4 letters in their first AND last name has ever made all-pro in even numbered calendar years.

[Bookie Man]

The Allen person project? 

[Drunken Pygmy Goat]

When was the last time a 1st round QB didn't start any games during their rookie season??? Without looking, I'd guess maybe 1 or 2 in the last 10-15 years. 

 

People want to talk about developing a project QB, and in Allen's case, footwork is the first thing most people mention. But it's not like he can only work on that while riding the bench. There's plenty of time between now and week one of the regular season for him to work on that. Not saying he'll start week one, but if he does, it's not like that will stunt his growth, or hinder the process of improving his footwork. In fact, nothing can replicate real game action. When the bullets are flying is when you truly see what needs to be worked on. That's the bar, not what his footwork looks like in shorts. 

 

Do I think it would serve him and his development best to sit and learn for at least a few weeks to start the season? Yes. But that's not simply based on the idea that he needs to improve his footwork. It's more about the various other intricacies that go with learning the game at the professional level. He'll be tasked with learning a new playbook, studying defenses, working on timing with his WRs. Not to mention that he'll be new in town, and getting to know his teammates.

 

What we saw with Deshaun Watson last year was not common. He was able to play at a high level (as a rookie) because he was able to buy time with his legs. Allen may be able to do some of that as well, but I don't think it's reasonable to expect him, or anyone, to do that so soon in their careers. Watson also had a ton of big game experience against top talent under his belt from his days at Clemson, something that Allen does not. And even if he can do that regularly, most rookie QBs spend much of their time on the field making mistakes. Andrew Luck didn't come out of the gate looking like the player he is now. Same with Peyton Manning. Some of that is also a reflection of the team that surrounds them (and as #1 picks, it's not a good team), but a lot of it is because they were learning on the fly, while trying to win games. Our team isn't that far off (compared to those Colts teams), although there's not a ton of talent on offense, but sometimes starting a QB as a rookie accelerates the process. Its not like sitting Allen for a year will guarantee that he starts year 2 and immediately looks like Big Ben in his prime. He's more likely to look like Big Ben during his first couple of seasons, which was a guy that made plenty of mistakes, and had a lower completion percentage. Granted, he had a good defense to lean on, so he wasn't asked to sling it all over, but that seems to be the plan for the Bills this year; improved defense, and not so much heavy passing attack. It allowed Ben to get his feet wet, and make mistakes in games for him to learn from, teaching him what not to do, while allowing him to gain confidence in his game at an early part of his career. 

 

As for the main point of this thread, I can see how the points made make sense, but it's really nothing more than trying to rationalize an optimistic POV. Whether or not Allen pans out will depend on several factors, and not necessarily if this "project is different".  I do think it's much different than EJ (if we have to make a comparison), but that doesn't mean it will work out. I do feel like his potential is much greater than, say, EJ, because of some of the factors mentioned in the OP. He has all the traits you look for (better than EJ), and hasn't "maxed out" at the collegiate level as the other drafted QBs may have, but how the team is built around him, his weapons, coaching, etc., will have as much to do with him "working out", i.e. winning, as will his improvement in footwork, if not more. 

Edited May 3, 2018 by Drunken Pygmy Goat

[ddaryl]

it looks like people are having to convince themsleves that this time will be different.

 

so many of these long winded threads looknig for kernels of reasons to believe

 

I will simply wait for the baby...  My expectaions are low at this point, but only based upon history...

 

[PaattMaann]

Just now, ddaryl said:

it looks like people are having to convince themsleves that this time will be different.

 

so many of these long winded threads looknig for kernels of reasons to believe

 

I will simply wait for the baby...  My expectaions are low at this point, but only based upon history...

 

 

agreed...there are reasons for optimism, and reasons for pessimism. I am an optimistic Bills fan because its more fun to positive about the hope for your favorite team. 

 

Last year I was positive but took a "wait for the baby" approach. They showed me the baby by jettisoning overpriced/not process type guys and creating cap room for the future while STILL making the playoffs with an average at best roster. I shall take that same approach this season, especially in regards to Josh Allen.

[ddaryl]

Just now, PaattMaann said:

 

agreed...there are reasons for optimism, and reasons for pessimism. I am an optimistic Bills fan because its more fun to positive about the hope for your favorite team. 

 

Last year I was positive but took a "wait for the baby" approach. They showed me the baby by jettisoning overpriced/not process type guys and creating cap room for the future while STILL making the playoffs with an average at best roster. I shall take that same approach this season, especially in regards to Josh Allen.

 

 

for me its been here seen it and not putitng my chips in early this time.

 

Yeah I see some things to like, but anyone can do that with any QB if they want ot find those things.. So we just sit back wait and see.

[Dr. Who]

12 hours ago, Skins Malone said:

Well said.  I do agree Rosen is more polished.  And your right many factors like coaching come into play.  I think the fact that Allen understands the game of football and has a high football IQ as people say..makes me believe he is not as much of a project as some may think.  The other two maybe more polished but imo have issues as well.  Mayfield is short..and yes you can be successful being a short QB but it is a disadvantage and a limitation.  Rosen imo is soft.  And being polished wont help when he gets drilled by a linebacker.  

Everything I have read indicates that Rosen is pretty tough.  His problem is that he lacks pocket awareness and escapability when pressure comes.  He takes a lot of hits and incurs injuries.  He also has a prickly personality, though I am unsure if that is really an issue.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

2 hours ago, Rise Up Lights said:

The Allen person project? 

Parsons.    

Allen Pardons Project 

 

 

Where do we go from here... 

[ngbills]

You can call it untapped talent.

You can call it more unknowns.

You can call it higher ceiling.

You can call it high risk.

 

Saying because he has never been "elite" so never received proper coaching, extensive looks, high competition etc is an abnormality not a positive. Sometimes there is a reason a guy plays at the top HS, then goes to all the elite camps, then is recruited as the #1 player in the nation etc. Because they have obvious talent. A guy like Allen can either not have the obvious talent, have some flaws that scare people off or who knows what. But it generally should not be viewed as a positive. That is just convincing yourself. 

 

[C.Biscuit97]

5 minutes ago, ngbills said:

You can call it untapped talent.

You can call it more unknowns.

You can call it higher ceiling.

You can call it high risk.

 

Saying because he has never been "elite" so never received proper coaching, extensive looks, high competition etc is an abnormality not a positive. Sometimes there is a reason a guy plays at the top HS, then goes to all the elite camps, then is recruited as the #1 player in the nation etc. Because they have obvious talent. A guy like Allen can either not have the obvious talent, have some flaws that scare people off or who knows what. But it generally should not be viewed as a positive. That is just convincing yourself. 

 

It’s also weird that people question Allen’s coaching when his college coaches were Wentz’.

[Dr. Who]

5 minutes ago, ngbills said:

You can call it untapped talent.

You can call it more unknowns.

You can call it higher ceiling.

You can call it high risk.

 

Saying because he has never been "elite" so never received proper coaching, extensive looks, high competition etc is an abnormality not a positive. Sometimes there is a reason a guy plays at the top HS, then goes to all the elite camps, then is recruited as the #1 player in the nation etc. Because they have obvious talent. A guy like Allen can either not have the obvious talent, have some flaws that scare people off or who knows what. But it generally should not be viewed as a positive. That is just convincing yourself. 

 

Or maybe he started out in h.s. as an average sized fella from a tiny, obscure farm town playing for a tiny, obscure team.  Then he grew seven inches, put on muscle, but was still a raw talent with no history of good coaching performing in elite programs, so he had to go the juco route and then play for Wyoming.  It is a positive in the sense that one can make a plausible case for why their is a gap between innate talent and his current state of development.

2 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

It’s also weird that people question Allen’s coaching when his college coaches were Wentz’.

Well, that particular coach speaks highly of Allen, though folks who don't like Allen will dismiss it as propoganda.  Not sure how much a head coach has to do with qb development, but at minimum Allen has been exposed to a pro-style system.

[ngbills]

2 minutes ago, Dr. Who said:

Or maybe he started out in h.s. as an average sized fella from a tiny, obscure farm town playing for a tiny, obscure team.  Then he grew seven inches, put on muscle, but was still a raw talent with no history of good coaching performing in elite programs, so he had to go the juco route and then play for Wyoming.  It is a positive in the sense that one can make a plausible case for why their is a gap between innate talent and his current state of development.

Well, that particular coach speaks highly of Allen, though folks who don't like Allen will dismiss it as propoganda.  Not sure how much a head coach has to do with qb development, but at minimum Allen has been exposed to a pro-style system.

It is like winning the lotto. Avoid the known or elite talent because you think you know the ceiling. But find the diamond in the rough and hit the goldmine. Yes this can happen. Its just higher risk and higher reward. And its funny that people say "well if Allen was the #1 recruit in the nation and playing at Alabama he would have been the obvious #1 pick"/ Well duh...