O-Line Concerns, how many new starters on Bills O-Line in 2018?

[freddyjj]

So while all fans of the Bills wait and see how Rd 1 shakes out and what top QB we might get, my concern is what OBD will do to better protect the new QB.  Granted, part of the Bills being 2nd to last in sacks allowed in 2017 can be attributed to Taylor's penchant for holding the ball.  But some of the fault falls to the O-Line and specifically the right side where Miller struggled in pass pro early and then Mills had some tough games.   So where does OBD stand in stacking talent on the OLine?  A cursory review does not inspire confidence:

 

1. Eric Wood's unfortunate diagnosis and subsequent retirement really forced OBD to sign an UFA in Russell Bodine to compete with Groy for the starting C role.  Whoever loses that battle will be the primary interior backup at both positions.  Neither is an upgrade to Wood.
2. At LT, it would appear Dion Dawkins will be looked upon to start and hold down the position for 16 games.  Given that he will face the Houston Texans, Jags, Vikes, Chargers, and Ravens pass rush this year, he will have to continue his solid play.   This is likely a wash in 2018.
3. At LG, Richie is due back (albeit at a paycut) and OBD is counting on him to continue his strong play (Pro bowl level).  The fact they did not extend his deal shows they have concerns about his possibly tailing off through this his 13th season.  Could OBD look to draft his replacement this year at LG?  Again this is at best a wash in 2018.
4. At RG, the choices are not stellar.  Ducasse will likely be the nominal starter going to camp with Miller and the loser at the C battle also in the mix.   Again, this could be a draft target or a camp signing of someone else's cap casualty.  Perhaps Newhouse gets some reps here too.  At best a wash again.
5. At RT, Mills is again the starter by default right now.  Newhouse has starting experience and Conor McDermott will likely see reps in a camp battle.  This is definitely a draft target if OBD doesn't trade up.  The fact that OBD signed Newhouse (and Bodine) may point to their being unimpressed with the mid-round talent at OLine or and indication of their realizing they needed to get some quality depth if they are in fact trading up.  At best this is presently a wash again.

 

So with a change at the pivot, the Bills Oline will be challenged to even equal last year's performance. The current talent level is at or below last year.  They will not have the same 5 starters so cohesiveness via continuity will also be diminished.  On the plus side, the new OC Brian Daboll committing to a power run scheme could help the OLine in the run game.   O Line Coach Juan Castillo did show that over the 2nd half of last year the line could block the power game.  In the passing game it is unclear how effectively AJ McCarron (or a rookie QB tbd) will execute Daboll's Erhardt Perkins offense.  McCarron (or a rookie like Rosen, Rudolph or White) will not have the ability to extend plays that Tyrod showed in his tenure.  Will that be offset by the new QB squeezing the trigger more quickly?

 

So what do you foresee?  How many new starters on O-Line does OBD trot out in 2018?

Edited April 2, 2018 by freddyjj

[Blokestradamus]

Dawkins - Incognito - Groy - Miller - McDermott.

 

I guess technically 3 new starters, even if 2 are kinda old starters.

[John from Riverside]

1 minute ago, Blokestradamus said:

Dawkins - Incognito - Groy - Miller - McDermott.

 

I guess technically 3 new starters, even if 2 are kinda old starters.

This is also how I see it....and frankly it doesnt look that bad as long as they change the blocking scheme back to what Miller was good at.

[Alphadawg7]

Ive been long concerned about the OL.  It was NOT good in pass protection last year.  Tyrod's threat to run kept teams having to account for that, but when the DC's either committed to bringing the heat or got to face Nate the OL was a revolving door.  

 

For me, the two biggest priority behind QB is without question LB and OL.  I would also love to grab some offensive weapons, but truthfully after QB, nothing is more pressing on this team than LB and OL and would expect multiple picks along the OL and at least one LB.  

 

Another reason I am less excited about an expensive trade up and would prefer a cheaper one to like 6, 7, 8, 9 or 10 so we can grab more prospects to address some of these holes.  

[John from Riverside]

1 minute ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Ive been long concerned about the OL.  It was NOT good in pass protection last year.  Tyrod's threat to run kept teams having to account for that, but when the DC's either committed to bringing the heat or got to face Nate the OL was a revolving door.  

 

For me, the two biggest priority behind QB is without question LB and OL.  I would also love to grab some offensive weapons, but truthfully after QB, nothing is more pressing on this team than LB and OL and would expect multiple picks along the OL and at least one LB.  

 

Another reason I am less excited about an expensive trade up and would prefer a cheaper one to like 6, 7, 8, 9 or 10 so we can grab more prospects to address some of these holes.  

Another thing that would slow down that heat is quick accurate throws that burn them for doing that.....

Tyrods escability......the ball getting out quick....they both work

[freddyjj]

1 minute ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Ive been long concerned about the OL.  It was NOT good in pass protection last year.  Tyrod's threat to run kept teams having to account for that, but when the DC's either committed to bringing the heat or got to face Nate the OL was a revolving door.  

 

For me, the two biggest priority behind QB is without question LB and OL.  I would also love to grab some offensive weapons, but truthfully after QB, nothing is more pressing on this team than LB and OL and would expect multiple picks along the OL and at least one LB.  

 

Another reason I am less excited about an expensive trade up and would prefer a cheaper one to like 6, 7, 8, 9 or 10 so we can grab more prospects to address some of these holes.  

Thanks Alphadawg7.  So what was your poll choice with # of new starters next year?

[Alphadawg7]

8 minutes ago, freddyjj said:

Thanks Alphadawg7.  So what was your poll choice with # of new starters next year?

 

I think there will be 3 new starters personally when its all said and done.  

[Blokestradamus]

12 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

This is also how I see it....and frankly it doesnt look that bad as long as they change the blocking scheme back to what Miller was good at.

 

They will need some fresh impetus at some point but I think between the likely bevy of picks they'll use to get the QB and the dead cap hit on the books, their hands are effectively tied for 2018. Most teams aren't going to look at Bodine and Newhouse on the open market and think "Oh, I must have one of those guys", but they didn't really have many options to bring in experienced players for camp.

 

 

[JohnC]

17 minutes ago, Blokestradamus said:

Dawkins - Incognito - Groy - Miller - McDermott.

 

I guess technically 3 new starters, even if 2 are kinda old starters.

What's your take on Miller? Has there been a mismatch with the system or just poorly used. I'm aware that he has been hurt but he has been a disappointment. 

[NewEraBills]

The OL certainly needs to be upgraded.  Regardless of the magical thinking that goes on surrounding QBs, they cannot succeed when there is nothing around them.

[Alphadawg7]

14 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

Another thing that would slow down that heat is quick accurate throws that burn them for doing that.....

Tyrods escability......the ball getting out quick....they both work

 

True, but the point is, the OL was awful regardless.  When opposing teams committed to getting at TT or NP, they got there with ease and frequently before the QB drop back was even complete.  

 

This OL is not one I have confidence in regarding pass protection, especially with losing Wood as Groy is not a good full time starter IMO, better rotational guy.  I hope we address the OL to help keep our shiny newly drafted QB upright.

Edited April 2, 2018 by Alphadawg7

[SoCal Deek]

I still remember, was it last year, when the exact OPPOSITE was the sales pitch for the O-Line...where we had five returning starters for something like the first time in 20 years? I'm not sure that that proved to be the recipe for success...so I'm game with changing things up.

[Blokestradamus]

Just now, JohnC said:

What's your take on Miller? Has there been a mismatch with the system or just poorly used. I'm aware that he has been hurt but he has been a disappointment. 

 

He's a big, square dude with limited athletic ability but really sharp with solid technique and power. The switch to a more zone-based scheme hurt him because he just doesn't have the mobility to fully execute a lot of outside zone principles. With it seeming that the Bills will be running a lot more man/power concepts under Brian Daboll, we're going to be back firmly in Miller's wheelhouse.

 

I'm not sure if getting benched has caused any drop in confidence or belief for John. I really hope that it hasn't because he's a really solid starter at his best. If you can keep him head-up on a defender, executing a lot of down blocks and keep his movement limited to the odd playside pull, he's capable of moving Vlad to the discarded pile.

[ColoradoBills]

30 minutes ago, Blokestradamus said:

Dawkins - Incognito - Groy - Miller - McDermott.

 

I guess technically 3 new starters, even if 2 are kinda old starters.

 

I also am hoping McDermott can make a big move in camp/preseason and secure RT.

My big question would be who is dressing as "reserve swing tackle"?  I see this as a potential nightmare.

If Dawkins goes down who fills in, Newhouse?  Mills has only played RT.

Is Bodine the "reserve G/C?.  Do we dress 7 or 8?

[Blokestradamus]

6 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

I also am hoping McDermott can make a big move in camp/preseason and secure RT.

My big question would be who is dressing as "reserve swing tackle"?  I see this as a potential nightmare.

If Dawkins goes down who fills in, Newhouse?  Mills has only played RT.

Is Bodine the "reserve G/C?.  Do we dress 7 or 8?

 

 

I think that Mills is probably sticking around. They gave him a $450k roster bonus recently. I'd probably bet that he starts at RT with Conor as the swing, to begin with.

 

I think McDermott could play LT in a pinch and they'd bring Mills back in to play RT in that case. As far as the interior swing goes, I think Bodine is a lock for the roster but maybe the backup guard isn't on the roster just yet.

Edited April 2, 2018 by Blokestradamus

[freddyjj]

3 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

I also am hoping McDermott can make a big move in camp/preseason and secure RT.

My big question would be who is dressing as "reserve swing tackle"?  I see this as a potential nightmare.

If Dawkins goes down who fills in, Newhouse?  Mills has only played RT.

Is Bodine the "reserve G/C?.  Do we dress 7 or 8?

The Swing Tackle role will fall to the loser of the RT battle.  Mills, Newhouse, McDermott or a rookie OT could play that role.  A Rookie LT transitioning to RT (ala Dawkins last year) could definitely be in the mix.  If we pick an OL in draft my guess is T.

 

As for C/G backup it would be Groy or Bodine if they lose the C Battle.  Again, there are several strong C/G candidates coming out too (Price, Daniels, Ragnow) who could also be in the mix if drafted.  With Bodine, the need here was greatly diminished as he started 64 games in NFL already.

[BuffaloHokie13]

47 minutes ago, Blokestradamus said:

Dawkins - Incognito - Groy - Miller - McDermott.

 

I guess technically 3 new starters, even if 2 are kinda old starters.

Exactly what I have penciled in right now. I could see them going OT on day 2 though to fill the RT spot (or at least provide competition) with a guy like Crosby, O'Neill, etc.

[TheBeane]

Quick decisive throws will go a very long way to help out an o-line in passing situations.  If Daboll's offense dictates to throw the ball quick, we will see improvement. 

 

I don't know how many times during games with TT I would be yelling at my tv "throw the ball!  throw the ball!"  He was so hesitant to throw the ball, it would either end up in a sack or he would need to run.

[ColoradoBills]

5 minutes ago, Blokestradamus said:

 

I think that Mills is probably sticking around. They gave him a $450k roster bonus recently. I'd probably bet that he starts at RT with Conor as the swing, to begin with.

 

I think McDermott could play LT in a pinch and they'd bring Mills back in to play RT in that case. As far as the interior swing goes, I think Bodine is a lock for the roster but maybe the backup guard isn't on the roster just yet.

 

Agree about Bodine being a lock as of now.  This may sound crazy but what if Bodine can start at Center?  The possibility of Groy and Ritchie being starting G's is there.

 

2 minutes ago, freddyjj said:

The Swing Tackle role will fall to the loser of the RT battle.  Mills, Newhouse, McDermott or a rookie OT could play that role.  A Rookie LT transitioning to RT (ala Dawkins last year) could definitely be in the mix.  If we pick an OL in draft my guess is T.

 

As for C/G backup it would be Groy or Bodine if they lose the C Battle.  Again, there are several strong C/G candidates coming out too (Price, Daniels, Ragnow) who could also be in the mix if drafted.  With Bodine, the need here was greatly diminished as he started 64 games in NFL already.

 

I guess my feeling is not wanting Mills/Newhouse anywhere near LT.  LOL

I can see OT as the 1st OL drafted and would probably welcome that before G/C.

[Blokestradamus]

10 minutes ago, BuffaloHokie13 said:

Exactly what I have penciled in right now. I could see them going OT on day 2 though to fill the RT spot (or at least provide competition) with a guy like Crosby, O'Neill, etc.

 

Oh, I am so down for Tyrell Crosby. A real process type with a mean streak, I absolutely adore him.

 

I'm just not sure how early we end up picking if they draft a QB via trade-up.

 

5 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

Agree about Bodine being a lock as of now.  This may sound crazy but what if Bodine can start at Center?  The possibility of Groy and Ritchie being starting G's is there.

 

 

Bodine has his '18 base salary guaranteed so he's probably on the 53-man in pen already. Having witnessed Russell Bodine play Center before, I bloody hope he doesn't start. I'm sure he's a nice dude but that boy is a train wreck.

 

I wouldn't exactly rule it out if you're trying to use the 'best five' idea with the OL. I remain staunchly interested in Ryan Groy at RT, as unlikely as it is. Athletically, I think he's got some very strong correlation to some very good OT's.

Edited April 2, 2018 by Blokestradamus

[thebandit27]

5 minutes ago, Blokestradamus said:

 

Oh, I am so down for Tyrell Crosby. A real process type with a mean streak, I absolutely adore him.

 

I'm just not sure how early we end up picking if they draft a QB via trade-up.

 

I'm also in on Crosby--love the length and demeanor.

[BuffaloHokie13]

4 minutes ago, Blokestradamus said:

Oh, I am so down for Tyrell Crosby. A real process type with a mean streak, I absolutely adore him.

 

I'm just not sure how early we end up picking if they draft a QB via trade-up.

Depends on this Allen/Darnold at #1 thing I think. Latest I think we'd pick would be 56. If we do go QB (trade-up), OT, then LB will probably be addressed with some combo of Leonard, Warner, McCray, and Burks in rounds 4-6.

 

If I had to guess, of course.

[Blokestradamus]

2 minutes ago, BuffaloHokie13 said:

Depends on this Allen/Darnold at #1 thing I think. Latest I think we'd pick would be 56. If we do go QB (trade-up), OT, then LB will probably be addressed with some combo of Leonard, Warner, McCray, and Burks in rounds 4-6.

 

If I had to guess, of course.

 

I'm 98% confident that Sam Darnold is the #1 pick. After that, I have absolutely no idea. That Thursday is going to be carnage.

 

Considering that I have a borderline 1st round grade on Crosby, I'd happily take him if there's a pick left over in the 2nd or the top of the 3rd.

[ColoradoBills]

9 minutes ago, Blokestradamus said:

 

Bodine has his '18 base salary guaranteed so he's probably on the 53-man in pen already. Having witnessed Russell Bodine play Center before, I bloody hope he doesn't start. I'm sure he's a nice dude but that boy is a train wreck.

 

I wouldn't exactly rule it out if you're trying to use the 'best five' idea with the OL. I remain staunchly interested in Ryan Groy at RT, as unlikely as it is. Athletically, I think he's got some very strong correlation to some very good OT's.

 

This is why the Bodine thing has me so puzzled.  How could he start for the Bengals for 4 years straight?

I know CIN got rid of their OL Coach and got Frank Pollack from the Cowboys.

Bodine can probably handle the G/C reserve role until something better comes along but Jeez after Ritchie he is the highest paid OL player!

[Blokestradamus]

1 minute ago, ColoradoBills said:

This is why the Bodine thing has me so puzzled.  How could he start for the Bengals for 4 years straight?

I know CIN got rid of their OL Coach and got Frank Pollack from the Cowboys.

Bodine can probably handle the G/C reserve role until something better comes along but Jeez after Ritchie he is the highest paid OL player!

 

 

I think someone in that building was being pig-headed. They traded up to get Bodine and they just decided not to address it. I guess it's easy to think that you're getting value for money when his rookie deal averages less than $700k/year. I still have flashbacks to their game against the Jets a couple years ago. Steve McLendon absolutely bulldozed him for 60 minutes.

 

I guess the positive is that he's been durable and has 64 starts under his belt. Coming in off the bench, he's not going to be some wide-eyed rookie. I would be very surprised if he started and not at all surprised if they eat the $500k guaranteed for '19 fairly quickly after the '18 season.

[thebandit27]

2 minutes ago, Blokestradamus said:

 

I think someone in that building was being pig-headed. They traded up to get Bodine and they just decided not to address it. I guess it's easy to think that you're getting value for money when his rookie deal averages less than $700k/year. I still have flashbacks to their game against the Jets a couple years ago. Steve McLendon absolutely bulldozed him for 60 minutes.

 

I guess the positive is that he's been durable and has 64 starts under his belt. Coming in off the bench, he's not going to be some wide-eyed rookie. I would be very surprised if he started and not at all surprised if they eat the $500k guaranteed for '19 fairly quickly after the '18 season.

 

Mostly agree...I do like that Bodine gives the team a safety net for 2019 in the event that DisGROYer leaves in UFA and they don't already have a young replacement in the fold.

[freddyjj]

So maybe some position versatile players that will go later than Rd 2 - Rankin at OT and Ragnow at OG/C - both SEC talents who can play a few positions- might be of value?

 

[Blokestradamus]

6 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

Mostly agree...I do like that Bodine gives the team a safety net for 2019 in the event that DisGROYer leaves in UFA and they don't already have a young replacement in the fold.

 

 

It's some safety net though.

 

"Jump out of the window and we'll catch you"

 

"But you just laid more concrete on top of the concrete. This isn't how this work"

[baskingridgebillsfan]

Quote

 

they have three bullets at right tackle.  Mills we know, Newhouse has been bouncing around the league but still might be an upgrade form mills and Connor McDermott who has a little buzz coming out of last years draft .  The Bills used a roster spot all year for him so presumably they see something.    Center will probably take a step back ? how big I would bet not as big as one might think.   What to make of Miller , will a power scheme and one more year in the league turning him into at least an average guard ? or will they spend a third round pick to upgrade.   

[Herb62]

1 hour ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

I also am hoping McDermott can make a big move in camp/preseason and secure RT.

My big question would be who is dressing as "reserve swing tackle"?  I see this as a potential nightmare.

If Dawkins goes down who fills in, Newhouse?  Mills has only played RT.

Is Bodine the "reserve G/C?.  Do we dress 7 or 8?

I keep hearing about McDermott, who is he?  They appear to be pretty high on him UDFA?

[BadLandsMeanie]

Like you say, the right side of the line, guard and tackle, are a problem. 

 

But for me it wasn't just pass protection. I don't think the Bills could run that way very well either.

[JohnC]

2 hours ago, Blokestradamus said:

 

He's a big, square dude with limited athletic ability but really sharp with solid technique and power. The switch to a more zone-based scheme hurt him because he just doesn't have the mobility to fully execute a lot of outside zone principles. With it seeming that the Bills will be running a lot more man/power concepts under Brian Daboll, we're going to be back firmly in Miller's wheelhouse.

 

I'm not sure if getting benched has caused any drop in confidence or belief for John. I really hope that it hasn't because he's a really solid starter at his best. If you can keep him head-up on a defender, executing a lot of down blocks and keep his movement limited to the odd playside pull, he's capable of moving Vlad to the discarded pile.

Thank you. You are illuminating.

[Dadonkadonk]

I see only two. A new center and Miller wins back the RG spot.  Mills is just above average for a back-up but there is no one else on the roster to put up much of a challenge.  Draft is awful for OT and they have too many other spots to address.  

[ColoradoBills]

9 minutes ago, Herb62 said:

I keep hearing about McDermott, who is he?  They appear to be pretty high on him UDFA?

OT Conor McDermott.  He was drafted by NE in the 6th round in 2017 and Bill's picked him off of waivers.

He moved between Practice Squad and Main Team a couple times during the year.

Hopefully he put some weight on and got stronger in the off season.

 

[Formerly Allan in MD]

If Mills is still on this team next season, you know we haven't progressed very far.

[smuvtalker]

3 hours ago, Blokestradamus said:

 

He's a big, square dude with limited athletic ability but really sharp with solid technique and power. The switch to a more zone-based scheme hurt him because he just doesn't have the mobility to fully execute a lot of outside zone principles. With it seeming that the Bills will be running a lot more man/power concepts under Brian Daboll, we're going to be back firmly in Miller's wheelhouse.

 

I'm not sure if getting benched has caused any drop in confidence or belief for John. I really hope that it hasn't because he's a really solid starter at his best. If you can keep him head-up on a defender, executing a lot of down blocks and keep his movement limited to the odd playside pull, he's capable of moving Vlad to the discarded pile.

Agree 100%......excellent take.