Fixing the pass rush

[34-78-83]

I like FA Demarcus Lawrence a lot.

 

and Draft a good young DT...

[dave mcbride]

5 minutes ago, Maine-iac said:

About the third person to either not read everything I said or take it the wrong way.  I even re-explained it 8 hours ago in this thread.

 

I think you should at least acknowledge that 60 sacks is off-the-charts crazy good. And if you dive into the numbers, only 2 people had more than 10 sacks (Johnson with 11; Hardy with 15). The LBs had a bunch of sacks, one safety had 4 sacks, another safety had 3, and a CB had 3 (10 from 3 DBs is a LOT).  Davis and Kuechly had 6 in total. All of this suggests a fair amount of blitzing.

Edited January 10, 2018 by dave mcbride

[Maine-iac]

You are right.  You win the internet.  It's yours.  I definately meant he never EVER blitzes and you were here to correct me.  It's because I never watch the games that I didn't see him blitzing all the time.

[Buddo]

1 minute ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I can’t see how anyone can say the OL and DL are similar as needs. The OL may very well return all 5 starters plus Groy/Glenn. Some could change I guess. The DL dumped one starter mid-season, another is in his 15th year, a 3rd had a season ending surgery and the 4th may be a cap casualty. That to go along with the fact that they were one of the worst run defense in the league and bottom 5 in sacks. The DL is a WAY bigger need than OL. The OL could be fixed by just hiring a new coach. 

Agreed that DL is more pressing of a need than the O-Line, and should be prioritized, yet the O-Line still isn't good enough.

 

How much help we need on the D-Line is pretty dependant on whether or not Kyle decides to go again.

 

We pretty much need to use one of our 1st rounders, on the D-Line, assuming we don't throw them all at a QB.

 

If Kyle is staying, I'd go after another genuine edge rusher, to put opposite Hughes, or even just to rotate with Hughes, if they are content to have Lawson setting the edge the other side.

 

If he's going, then I think you could go either way, depending on grades, but you will also need to get the other one, (DT or DE) with another high pick, maybe one of the 2nd rounders.

 

I'd say it also depends on if Kyle stays or goes, as to what type of DT you are going to be comfortable with, as his forte has been penetrating, and you definitely want a guy who can do that through the middle.

 

As regards the O-Line, I'd give serious consideration to moving Glenn to RT, in part because Dawkins looks like a good pick, and has done a solid job, but also because Glenn has more versatility, and should be able to go at RT easily, and making that switch, could also mean he has  bit less stress as regards his footwork,  helping to keep him fit and healthy. Tbh, as we have Dawkins for nothing for another couple of years, the $ Glenn will be getting to play RT, is irrelevant.

[dave mcbride]

3 minutes ago, Maine-iac said:

You are right.  You win the internet.  It's yours.  I definately meant he never EVER blitzes and you were here to correct me.  It's because I never watch the games that I didn't see him blitzing all the time.

Let's keep this friendly. You wrote the following: "To say he plays a defense that doesn't need a great pass rush would sound stupid I imagine but it's true." The reason their defense finished 3rd in DVOA that season was largely because of the pass rush. I followed them because they were neck and neck with the Bills that season in the sack total competition. The Bills went into the final game with the lead (and ended up with 57, best in team history by a lot), but Dareus got benched against NE, the Pats ran the ball all game, and Carolina got six sacks. 

[Kirby Jackson]

19 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

...where the hell did I say one was a priority over the other?..... to quote my post, "after that, draft capital is on DL/OL or OL/DL depending on your perspective, BOTH areas of need."......

I didn’t say that you said it was a bigger need. My point was it isn’t debatable or “depending on perspective.” WR is a bigger need than OL, and LB is too. DL is just behind QB. 

[LABILLBACKER]

9 hours ago, Call_Of_Ktulu said:

To fix the pass rush we would almost have to dedicate our entire draft and FA to it. We would need to pick up that FA DT from Dallas and draft another DT,DE and OLB. 

Too many questions. Will we keep Lorax, Hughes? Will Kyle retire? What do we do with Lawson?

[Maine-iac]

1 minute ago, dave mcbride said:

Let's keep this friendly. You wrote the following: "To say he plays a defense that doesn't need a great pass rush would sound stupid I imagine but it's true." The reason their defense finished 3rd in DVOA that season was largely because of the pass rush. I followed them because they were neck and neck with the Bills that season in the sack total competition. The Bills went into the final game with the lead (and ended up with 57, best in team history by a lot), but Dareus got benched against NE, the Pats ran the ball all game, and Carolina got six sacks. 

Yes maybe in 2013.  Schwartz collected 54 a year later in a 4-3 and he didn't blitz all the time either.  Again you started the nitpicking when it's clear I never said he doesn't blitz.  Matter of fact I'm a big fan of the how and when I have seen McDermott blitz.  All that said if you watched the games and have an understanding of how different coordinators are playing most downs McDemott was not sending guys on every play.  I think it's the fact that I have explained this and am re explaining it that seems ridiculous and only seems to happen on message boards. 

 

The Panthers are blitzing nearly 42.6 percent of the time this season on passing plays, which represents a dramatic 17.3 percent increase over last season under Sean McDermott, according to Pro Football Focus. McDermott left this past offseason to become the head coach of the Buffalo Bills.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/2017/10/30/panthers-blitzing-more-on-defense-winning-games/107182386/

[Maine-iac]

It starts with the defensive line. Because Carolina rarely blitzes, they must be very stout, active, strong at the point of attack, and athletic enough to handle double teams.

 

https://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2013/11/8/5080004/panthers-vs-49ers-defense-breakdown

Even throw you a bone because at no point did I say that McDermott never blitzes.  It's just not the meat of what he does.  Just like I said and said again.  Taken from the same article I just linked.

 

Perhaps 'rare' is an exaggeration, but I think it's safe to say that heavy and exotic blitzing is not a staple of the Panthers' game plan as of late. Instead, they rely on their excellent players along the defensive line to create pressure, squeeze the pocket, and hopefully force the quarterback to make a bad decision with where he's going with the football, all while playing seven men in the intermediate and deep zones to blanket receiving options.

 

Switching gears reading that old article it was interesting to see Dwan Edwards and Drayton Florence's names.  They must have headed down there after Edwards left?

Edited January 11, 2018 by Maine-iac

[dave mcbride]

3 hours ago, Maine-iac said:

Yes maybe in 2013.  Schwartz collected 54 a year later in a 4-3 and he didn't blitz all the time either.  Again you started the nitpicking when it's clear I never said he doesn't blitz.  Matter of fact I'm a big fan of the how and when I have seen McDermott blitz.  All that said if you watched the games and have an understanding of how different coordinators are playing most downs McDemott was not sending guys on every play.  I think it's the fact that I have explained this and am re explaining it that seems ridiculous and only seems to happen on message boards. 

 

The Panthers are blitzing nearly 42.6 percent of the time this season on passing plays, which represents a dramatic 17.3 percent increase over last season under Sean McDermott, according to Pro Football Focus. McDermott left this past offseason to become the head coach of the Buffalo Bills.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/2017/10/30/panthers-blitzing-more-on-defense-winning-games/107182386/

I was talking about 2013, not 2016, and in 2013 the Panthers had 10 sacks from 3 dbs. I’d be surprised if any other team in recent years got souble digit sacks from a trio of DBs. A db getting a sack is by pretty much by definition a blitz situation. You may be right about 2016; I don’t know. Their defense was a lot worse in 2016 than it was in 2013, although it was almost a function of a talent decline and injuries.

 

For the record, the Panthers were blitzing at a rate of around 24 percent in 2013-14, which wasn’t a lot (23rd and 24th in rates those two seasons). That said they were very good at it and highly productive — second in the league in pass rushing productivity when blitzing as per pff. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.catscratchreader.com/platform/amp/2015/2/11/8022539/carolina-panthers-2014-pass-rush-greg-hardy

 

As for “nitpicking”, debating details is fun, at least for me (after all, this ain’t the bbmb). If you’re not into it, I won’t engage with you. No worries either way. Appreciate the info you provided, btw.

Edited January 11, 2018 by dave mcbride

[Manther]

A big huge DT will help everyone do their jobs.

 

And, if we could have a DE rotation of Lawson, Hughes plus someone else who get cab to the QB we will be in good shape.  A drastic improvement will have been made.

[TFBillsfan]

52 minutes ago, Manther said:

A big huge DT will help everyone do their jobs.

 

And, if we could have a DE rotation of Lawson, Hughes plus someone else who get cab to the QB we will be in good shape.  A drastic improvement will have been made.

Fully agree! This is why it hurts that Dareus didn’t pan out. Now we need to fill another hole. Draft a stud DT, sign a FA DT and drafting a LB will substantially upgrade our pass rush and improve our run defense. Love KW and everything he has done but I feel his best days are behind him.

 

If Glenn is healthy no need to address OT as you have Dawkins and Glenn. Maybe look at an OG in FA or draft in later rounds. Personally I’d like to see us draft James Daniels, All Big Ten Center from University of Iowa in the 4th if he’s there. Started as a Freshman under Ferentz who has a history of churning out OL. 

 

QB, DT, LB, RB, CB, C and BPA with our first five draft picks.

[Manther]

16 minutes ago, TFBillsfan said:

Fully agree! This is why it hurts that Dareus didn’t pan out. Now we need to fill another hole. Draft a stud DT, sign a FA DT and drafting a LB will substantially upgrade our pass rush and improve our run defense. Love KW and everything he has done but I feel his best days are behind him.

 

If Glenn is healthy no need to address OT as you have Dawkins and Glenn. Maybe look at an OG in FA or draft in later rounds. Personally I’d like to see us draft James Daniels, All Big Ten Center from University of Iowa in the 4th if he’s there. Started as a Freshman under Ferentz who has a history of churning out OL. 

 

QB, DT, LB, RB, CB, C and BPA with our first five draft picks.

I like it.  But, don't know anything about James Daniels.

[Big C]

1 hour ago, Manther said:

A big huge DT will help everyone do their jobs.

 

And, if we could have a DE rotation of Lawson, Hughes plus someone else who get cab to the QB we will be in good shape.  A drastic improvement will have been made.

 

This is where I'm at. Hughes is still a good pass rusher. He couldn't get home often because the rest of the DL was practically useless. You get Star in FA and maybe Vea in the draft, you're looking at a beastly DL and Hughes' numbers go back up. Lawson isn't much of a pass rusher, but he can play the run very well and keep that other DE spot stable while we look at a premier DE the following year perhaps. 

[purple haze]

If the Bills QB comes through Free Agency then Draft capital has to be spent on the front seven.  If a QB is the objective in the draft and Beane is willing to give up a lot of draft capital to select one, Free Agency has to be focused on the front 7.  

 

DT and MLB are the major needs.  The Bills have to get strong up the middle and be able to push the pocket from the inside.  If they can get pressure up the middle, Hughes and Lawson will look much better.

[WMDman]

ziggy and star would be amazing

 

unlikely tho

[Pete]

Roquan Smith is the player I would trade up for.  He is absolutely what this defense needs

[Hapless Bills Fan]

On 1/10/2018 at 7:18 AM, BillsFan2313 said:

Talked to my dad about this last night. Pass rush was non existent.  I would love to get Ansah. Either way, it needs to be addressed in free agency or early in the draft (first 2 rounds). DT is a need too, but it looks like there is a lot free agent depth at DT. 

 

Call me crazy, but I think if you fix the DT, you will not only do a lot for the run game, you will do a lot for the pass rush.

[Big C]

2 minutes ago, Pete said:

Roquan Smith is the player I would trade up for.  He is absolutely what this defense needs

 

No doubt the D would benefit from having him on the roster, but what would it cost and would it outweigh the potential haul we'd get by staying put?

[Manther]

46 minutes ago, Big C said:

 

This is where I'm at. Hughes is still a good pass rusher. He couldn't get home often because the rest of the DL was practically useless. You get Star in FA and maybe Vea in the draft, you're looking at a beastly DL and Hughes' numbers go back up. Lawson isn't much of a pass rusher, but he can play the run very well and keep that other DE spot stable while we look at a premier DE the following year perhaps. 

Totally agree!