Sammy who?

[BringBackOrton]

2 hours ago, Buffalo30 said:

He didn't act like he wanted to be here.  I don't think he would resign here.  So, you would've never seen the top talent the guy had after paying two 1st round picks for him and a 4th and gotten nothing as he left in free agency.  I'd be screaming at the front office.  I'm glad they got something for him.  If Gaines resigns (which is possible as he looks like a solid fit in this scheme) and the second round pick becomes a starter, we fill two needs instead of filling none and Sammy leaves.  We gotta be a little realistic, the guy wasn't happy here. 

Sammy in two years may be a very different individual.

Edited December 30, 2017 by jmc12290

[CommonCents]

1 minute ago, jmc12290 said:

Gaines is underperforming too. Or do you like paying top end CB to China dolls hurt every other week?

Top end CB? The guy makes half a million a year. 

[BringBackOrton]

Just now, Commonsense said:

Top end CB? The guy makes half a million a year. 

What's he gonna make next year?

[CommonCents]

Just now, jmc12290 said:

What's he gonna make next year?

What's that matter? He was a throw in on the trade and actually played decent enough to price himself out of Buffalo. 

 

He still won't come close to top corner money, if he gets 8m average and about 20 guaranteed I'd consider it. If I had my way they would have paid Bouye FWIW. That was my tantrum.

[Magox]

7 minutes ago, jmc12290 said:

Gaines is underperforming too. Or do you like paying top end CB to China dolls hurt every other week?

 

No he is not.  Here is a stat for you, when Gaines starts we are 7-3, when he doesn't we are 1-4.  And yes, Gaines has been a major contributor for our defense.  His problem of course has been his health, he does appear to be brittle, similar to the pre madona Watkins, except Watkins hasn't even earned the right to be a pre madona, his production throughout his NFL career has been lackluster.   He had one really good 9 game stretch and aside from that, he's been absent.  

 

I don't get why you guys stick up for this guy, he's not likable, he never endeared himself to fans, he wasn't liked by some of his teammates and simply put he didn't even come close to living up to his draft status.  It was the biggest mistake that Whaley did, giving up an additional first rounder when he could have selected 4 other guys that ended up being better than him.   What a costly mistake by Whaley.

[Green Lightning]

20 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

 

Feel better?  

 

Actually I do.

[26CornerBlitz]

Just now, Green Lightning said:

 

Actually I do.

 

Good. I'm happy for you.

[BringBackOrton]

48 minutes ago, Magox said:

 

No he is not.  Here is a stat for you, when Gaines starts we are 7-3, when he doesn't we are 1-4.  And yes, Gaines has been a major contributor for our defense.  His problem of course has been his health, he does appear to be brittle, similar to the pre madona Watkins, except Watkins hasn't even earned the right to be a pre madona, his production throughout his NFL career has been lackluster.   He had one really good 9 game stretch and aside from that, he's been absent.  

 

I don't get why you guys stick up for this guy, he's not likable, he never endeared himself to fans, he wasn't liked by some of his teammates and simply put he didn't even come close to living up to his draft status.  It was the biggest mistake that Whaley did, giving up an additional first rounder when he could have selected 4 other guys that ended up being better than him.   What a costly mistake by Whaley.

I meant "underperforming" in relation to his health. He's missed WAY too much time.

 

I don't like Watkins, the person. Watkins the football player has a ton of talent. I don't hold OBJ against him because I don't have a time machine. Its that simple.

56 minutes ago, Commonsense said:

What's that matter? He was a throw in on the trade and actually played decent enough to price himself out of Buffalo. 

 

He still won't come close to top corner money, if he gets 8m average and about 20 guaranteed I'd consider it. If I had my way they would have paid Bouye FWIW. That was my tantrum.

Because if Gaines is a one year rental, than we didn't get a starter for long. And if we pay him, then all the cap savings are null and void.

 

Thats why it matters.

[Elite Poster]

Such an incredibly dumb thread. 

[What a Tuel]

10 hours ago, JOE IN HAMPTON ROADS said:

Not making the playoffs because of one dropped pass at the end of the Carolina game could be a tough pill to swallow.

 

 

Once again, that pass was not Zay Jones (a rookies) fault. Tyrod Taylor should have hit Jones for the go ahead TD. I will admit Sammy Watkins probably comes down with it. But I hate this stigma that Zay Jones gave away the Carolina game. It was 90% Tyrod. 10% Zay. Tyrod puts that ball where it may not even be a TD despite Jones being wide open.

7 hours ago, Cynical said:

 

I think it's more known than unknown.

 

Back in October/November, Watkins did an interview with USA today, and he admitted he is still struggling with reading defensive coverages.

Just recently, he admitted Goff, at times, had to explain to him, in the huddle, some of the offensive concepts of a called play.

 

This is not a good look for a 4th year WR. If he's still struggling with the mental part of the game, his only asset is his speed = Decoy ability.

 

Source? I cannot find a USA Today article that says this.

Edited December 30, 2017 by What a Tuel

[Bill from NYC]

15 hours ago, jmc12290 said:

You could say this about TT too, but you don't, because you like him.

No, I actually cannot say this about TT. We used 2 first round picks and a fourth to get Sammy. This, on a team with quarterback issue. That (to me) is a virtual textbook definition of a wasted draft pick(s).

 

TT cost us virtually nothing, and it's not about whether or not I "like" him. Obviously I don't despise him the way you appear to. I find him to be an exciting player who probably has enough talent to take a team to the playoffs. Sadly, I don't think that he makes his reads fast enough to be a top 10 qb in this league.

I have followed football for close to 50 years but I don't know enough about qb play to say for sure whether or not coaching can help this to a large degree. I tend to think not.

 

I am all about drafting a quarterback in 2018. I also want to draft OL and DL. I hope that it happens but the Bills tend to focus on defensive backs and running backs in the draft. This is what is to blame for the Bills not making the playoffs to a much larger degree than is TT. Sadly, it seems to never end.

 

Oh, and starting Peterman was one of the dumbest coaching moves I have ever seen.

 

Happy New Year Bro!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

[KW95 - JA17]

21 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

No, I actually cannot say this about TT. We used 2 first round picks and a fourth to get Sammy. This, on a team with quarterback issue. That (to me) is a virtual textbook definition of a wasted draft pick(s).

 

TT cost us virtually nothing, and it's not about whether or not I "like" him. Obviously I don't despise him the way you appear to. I find him to be an exciting player who probably has enough talent to take a team to the playoffs. Sadly, I don't think that he makes his reads fast enough to be a top 10 qb in this league.

I have followed football for close to 50 years but I don't know enough about qb play to say for sure whether or not coaching can help this to a large degree. I tend to think not.

 

I am all about drafting a quarterback in 2018. I also want to draft OL and DL. I hope that it happens but the Bills tend to focus on defensive backs and running backs in the draft. This is what is to blame for the Bills not making the playoffs to a much larger degree than is TT. Sadly, it seems to never end.

 

Oh, and starting Peterman was one of the dumbest coaching moves I have ever seen.

 

Happy New Year Bro!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

 

Terrible decision to start Peterman in the win against the Colts

[The Now Moment]

9 hours ago, jmc12290 said:

Sammy in two years may be a very different individual.

Sammy's option was for 13.2 million dollars and he was disgruntled.  On top of that, he played in only 8 games the year before and 13 the year before that showing his injury concerns. That's a lot of stuff going on to just hope he figures it out and becomes happy.  

[BringBackOrton]

Just now, Buffalo30 said:

Sammy's option was for 13.2 million dollars and he was disgruntled.  On top of that, he played in only 8 games the year before and 13 the year before that showing his injury concerns. That's a lot of stuff going on to just hope he figures it out and becomes happy.  

How many games did his replacement play?

[The Now Moment]

5 minutes ago, jmc12290 said:

How many games did his replacement play?

Hindsight is 20/10 isn't it.  Yes, it was unfortunate that those players got hurt but those players injuries weren't factors at the time of the deal.  C'mon you're smarter than that.

Edited December 30, 2017 by Buffalo30

[BringBackOrton]

1 minute ago, Buffalo30 said:

Hindsight is 20/10 isn't it.  Yes, it was unfortunate that those players got hurt but those players injuries weren't factors at the time of the deal.  C'mon you're smarter than that.

Jordan Matthews had 2 injuries that hampered him in 2016. Including a knee; the same thing that put him on IR this year.

 

The larger point being that all players get unlucky and get injured. We had debates here all the time, would 8 games of Watkins be better than 14 games of Matthews? I argued yes, to that. And it ended up being 16 games of Watkins to 10 games of Matthews.

[The Now Moment]

9 minutes ago, jmc12290 said:

Jordan Matthews had 2 injuries that hampered him in 2016. Including a knee; the same thing that put him on IR this year.

 

The larger point being that all players get unlucky and get injured. We had debates here all the time, would 8 games of Watkins be better than 14 games of Matthews? I argued yes, to that. And it ended up being 16 games of Watkins to 10 games of Matthews.

Who knows if Watkins would have stayed healthy here.  That's a big assumption. Tyrod threw Sammy into some tough situations were he came out hurt.  Just look at the steelers game when he came up hurt.  Threw a slant right into two defenders that hit Sammy and he came up hurt.  You can't say he'd have played 16 games this year here. Doesn't mean he wouldn't have but you can't say he would have with all the injuries he had over the last few years here.

 

Either way, we knew Matthews wasn't Sammy's replacement.  He's a slot guy.  Again, at that point when they made the move, I think they did the right move based on all of the factors I mentioned earlier and they grabbed a player who played well although hurt and a potential future starter.  

Edited December 30, 2017 by Buffalo30

[BringBackOrton]

1 minute ago, Buffalo30 said:

Who knows if Watkins would have stayed healthy here.  That's a big assumption. Tyrod threw Sammy into some tough situations were he came out hurt.  Just look at the steelers game when he came up hurt.  Threw a slant right into two defenders that hit Sammy and he came up hurt.  You can't say he'd have played 16 games this year here. Doesn't mean he wouldn't have but you can't say he would have with all the injuries he had over the last few years here.

 

Either way, we knew Matthews wasn't Sammy's replacement.  He's a slot guy.  

Matthews was widely regarded as a more productive and better player on this board at the time of this trade.

[The Now Moment]

4 minutes ago, jmc12290 said:

Matthews was widely regarded as a more productive and better player on this board at the time of this trade.

Apologies.  I never thought he was his replacement.  He's a slot guy.  Don't just assume I'm in with that group though.  We did the right thing moving Sammy before he left and we would've been left empty handed.  

 

Imagine what this board would have done if he left in free agency after this season and we were trying to resign him.  We spent two first rounders and a fourth on him and would've gotten really nothing for him in the end.  That would've been a punch in the face.  I'm hopeful that they resign Gaines who is a tackling corner.  Hopefully he can straighten out the injuries and we resign him to a decent contract with playing time incentives or something so we don't get screwed if he gets hurt.  If he's resigned and the second round pick pans out...that's pretty darn good in my opinion.

[BringBackOrton]

21 minutes ago, Buffalo30 said:

Apologies.  I never thought he was his replacement.  He's a slot guy.  Don't just assume I'm in with that group though.  We did the right thing moving Sammy before he left and we would've been left empty handed.  

 

Imagine what this board would have done if he left in free agency after this season and we were trying to resign him.  We spent two first rounders and a fourth on him and would've gotten really nothing for him in the end.  That would've been a punch in the face.  I'm hopeful that they resign Gaines who is a tackling corner.  Hopefully he can straighten out the injuries and we resign him to a decent contract with playing time incentives or something so we don't get screwed if he gets hurt.  If he's resigned and the second round pick pans out...that's pretty darn good in my opinion.

Separate the cost from the player.  The picks were from 3 years ago.  Scrambling to get value because you spent a 2014 1st is silly.

 

We could have had Watkins for 2 seasons, AAV less than $9M over that time, with a decent chance of re-signing him. That's not that bad.

 

Look at you hoping Gaines turns around his injury history, willing to shell out big bucks to him in spite of it.  I have a question. Why is that different from Sammy?  If Gaines walks for "nothing," or if KB walks for "nothing," what did we really gain?

[The Now Moment]

21 minutes ago, jmc12290 said:

Separate the cost from the player.  The picks were from 3 years ago.  Scrambling to get value because you spent a 2014 1st is silly.

 

We could have had Watkins for 2 seasons, AAV less than $9M over that time, with a decent chance of re-signing him. That's not that bad.

 

Look at you hoping Gaines turns around his injury history, willing to shell out big bucks to him in spite of it.  I have a question. Why is that different from Sammy?  If Gaines walks for "nothing," or if KB walks for "nothing," what did we really gain?

You see I didn't say I was willing to pay him the big bucks just like I wasn't willing to pay Sammy what surely would have been big bucks.  I said a decent contract with an injury clause (playing time incentives).  I'd rather have potentially two starters than a bloated contract for a receiver that had trouble staying on the field here and was disgruntled.

[Billsfan1972]

Revisionist history.....  If the Bills were high on Gaines (who was not going to start for the Rams, they could have gotten him for next to nothing.  The Bills wanted a second rounder for Watkins because they were in tank mode before the season even started.  That's what turned me off......

 

Watkins was signed for 2017 and certainly there is this weird thing in the NFL where players get paid what they are worth on the open market.  How dare someone get paid "fair" market value.

 

Those who are banking on the Bills in 2020, good luck......  I was about the Bills in 2017.

 

There is no doubt the Bills would have been better with Watkins, Darby & Dareus this year.

[The Now Moment]

3 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Revisionist history.....  If the Bills were high on Gaines (who was not going to start for the Rams, they could have gotten him for next to nothing.  The Bills wanted a second rounder for Watkins because they were in tank mode before the season even started.  That's what turned me off......

 

Watkins was signed for 2017 and certainly there is this weird thing in the NFL where players get paid what they are worth on the open market.  How dare someone get paid "fair" market value.

 

Those who are banking on the Bills in 2020, good luck......  I was about the Bills in 2017.

 

There is no doubt the Bills would have been better with Watkins, Darby & Dareus this year.

I'm more for long term success than instant gratification of one year where we may have gotten in the playoffs.  Just my opinion.  Sometimes you gotta make business moves.  

[Billsfan1972]

3 minutes ago, Buffalo30 said:

You see I didn't say I was willing to pay him the big bucks just like I wasn't willing to pay Sammy what surely would have been big bucks.  I said a decent contract with an injury clause (playing time incentives).  I'd rather have potentially two starters than a bloated contract for a receiver that had trouble staying on the field here and was disgruntled.

Disgruntled?  If he was it was because he did not get enough targets, which was obvious based on the stats.  

 

Pre-season game #2 they targeted him repeatedly and he caught the pass.

 

Very easy to appease a good player, feed him the ball as long as he performs.  Would have been pretty simple and helped TT, McCoy and the offense. 

[The Now Moment]

5 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Disgruntled?  If he was it was because he did not get enough targets, which was obvious based on the stats.  

 

Pre-season game #2 they targeted him repeatedly and he caught the pass.

 

Very easy to appease a good player, feed him the ball as long as he performs.  Would have been pretty simple and helped TT, McCoy and the offense. 

I'd just rather have team first players.  He said it himself that he was selfish here.  Just sounded like a player that was on an average team that was only looking out for himself.  Not what I'm looking for in a player.  I want the Kyle Williams teammates and the Richie Incognito teammates (while he has been on Buffalo not Miami).  Look at Sammy now, doesn't get targets but he keeps his mouth shut.  He didn't do that here and I think us trading him was a reality check for him.

[stinky finger]

14 hours ago, jmc12290 said:

Sammy Watkins has elite talent.

 

That's a fact.

yeeeaaahhh....who has not lived up to expectations.

 

you forgot that part.

14 hours ago, JOE IN HAMPTON ROADS said:

Yes, that would have been perfect.  We win 1-2 more games this year to make playoffs, get an equal or better replacement in FA or draft.  Perfect.

 

 

Quite an assumption here. 

 

oh - and I doubt this assumption.

14 hours ago, jmc12290 said:

So far, yeah.  Thing is, he's on the Rams if he puts it together.  He's 24 years old.

Well there - at least you've come around.

[C.Biscuit97]

1 hour ago, jmc12290 said:

Matthews was widely regarded as a more productive and better player on this board at the time of this trade.

By stupid people. No one who watched Matthews and Sammy thought they were comparable players.

 

we got rid of Tyrod's one passing strength, throwing deep, for a bunch of slow slot WRs.  Terrible front office decision.

[stinky finger]

12 hours ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

Marcell Dareus AFC South Division Champion, Sammy Watkins NFC West Division Champion, Ronald Darby NFC East Division Champion.  

 

Process That!

These teams weren't performing at that level prior to their arrival?

 

Darby hurt the majority of the season.

 

Marcell walked into a ready made situation as did SW. 

12 hours ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

Yeah Yeah.  Try to rationalize their contributions away.  

 

While I'm at it Kevon Seymour and Kaelin Clay are also playoff bound. 

Yep - as you proclaim them as the reason why. 

[Billsfan1972]

9 minutes ago, Buffalo30 said:

I'd just rather have team first players.  He said it himself that he was selfish here.  Just sounded like a player that was on an average team that was only looking out for himself.  Not what I'm looking for in a player.  I want the Kyle Williams teammates and the Richie Incognito teammates (while he has been on Buffalo not Miami).  Look at Sammy now, doesn't get targets but he keeps his mouth shut.  He didn't do that here and I think us trading him was a reality check for him.

How naive are you?  Sounds great, but on a non-playoff team I bet almost everyone in a skill position wants the ball and to put up stats...... 

 

Geez even defensive backs and cornerbacks we see fighting over an interception or intercepting a fourth down pass and costing their teams 20 yards all for stats.

 

How the heck can an offensive/defensive lineman be "me first"?

[stinky finger]

10 hours ago, Commonsense said:

 

Mhmm let me try.

 

Here Dareus was paid and expected to be the impact player on defense. He wasn't. In Jacksonville he is about the 4th best Dlineman and is now a role player.

 

Sammy Watkins is the 4th recieiving option behind Woods, Kupp and Gurley. I know I know poor Sammy faces number 1 corners...and no teams game plan to stop TG.

 

As usual poor Sammy.

 

Ronald Darby missed 8 games, Philly was already well on their way. 

 

Yeah but 26 copy paste said.........

[C.Biscuit97]

Just now, inaugural balls said:

These teams weren't performing at that level prior to their arrival?

 

Darby hurt the majority of the season.

 

Marcell walked into a ready made situation as did SW. 

The Rams were 4-12. The Jags one weakness on defense was run defense. It was instantly improved after Dareus got their. Darby is the Eagles #1 cb.

 

we traded really talented players and replaced them with JAGs.  It could be the difference between us ending a 17 year drought and missing the playoffs again in one of the worst AFCs in a long time.

[The Now Moment]

2 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

How naive are you?  Sounds great, but on a non-playoff team I bet almost everyone in a skill position wants the ball and to put up stats...... 

 

Geez even defensive backs and cornerbacks we see fighting over an interception or intercepting a fourth down pass and costing their teams 20 yards all for stats.

 

How the heck can an offensive/defensive lineman be "me first"?

I just compared Buffalo Sammy to LA Sammy.  They have two different attitudes IMO

[Fan in Chicago]

4 hours ago, Bill from NYC said:

 

 

I am all about drafting a quarterback in 2018. I also want to draft OL and DL. I hope that it happens but the Bills tend to focus on defensive backs and running backs in the draft. This is what is to blame for the Bills not making the playoffs to a much larger degree than is TT. Sadly, it seems to never end.

 

 

 

 

The Bills havent prioritized DB and RB in the top rounds lately. And the when they chose Tre White, you have to admit it was a great choice. 

As for missing the playoffs, yes QB is one of the top reasons but also coaching. In last few years, Marrone chose the wrong OC, Pegulas chose the wrong HC in Ryan and his circus. 

Plenty of blame to go around. McBeane also havent made great personnel decisions this year (Sammy, Matthews) but the net results are yet to be seen. 

[C.Biscuit97]

Just now, Buffalo30 said:

I just compared Buffalo Sammy to LA Sammy.  They have two different attitudes IMO

I never heard anyone complaining about Sammy in Buffalo. He said he needs the ball more and the coaches agreed.  He and Shady are game changers and should get the ball a lot.

 

our offense is painful to watch. 

[What a Tuel]

10 minutes ago, Fan in Chicago said:

 

The Bills havent prioritized DB and RB in the top rounds lately. And the when they chose Tre White, you have to admit it was a great choice. 

As for missing the playoffs, yes QB is one of the top reasons but also coaching. In last few years, Marrone chose the wrong OC, Pegulas chose the wrong HC in Ryan and his circus. 

Plenty of blame to go around. McBeane also havent made great personnel decisions this year (Sammy, Matthews) but the net results are yet to be seen. 

 

I think we need to prioritize getting a QB now. In the last 18 years, a decent QB probably means a 2-3 game swing each year. A 2 game swing means we likely make the playoffs 3 times (counting this year). A 3 game swing means we contend for the playoffs 10 other times. 

 

I think that type of swing is realistic in my opinion anyway.  Just get our 20 year QB. Do that and there will be many years of "building through the draft".

 

Edit: And then we won't be "building to trade them before they are released to free agency"

 

Edit2: I know, I know, it seems super obvious and easier said than done. But I am sensing a lot of detraction from the goal of getting our QB next year. That is troubling to me.

Edited December 30, 2017 by What a Tuel

[The Now Moment]

13 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

I never heard anyone complaining about Sammy in Buffalo. He said he needs the ball more and the coaches agreed.  He and Shady are game changers and should get the ball a lot.

 

our offense is painful to watch. 

I just think it was more of a distraction from his frustration with his injuries than anything.  He said how selfish he was here and he said that he was afraid his teammates here thought he was selfish.  Whether they were or not who knows.  Sammy isn't getting the ball as much as I'm sure he'd like in LA but he isn't complaining.

 

I think the trade gave him a reality check

Edited December 30, 2017 by Buffalo30

[stinky finger]

9 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

The Rams were 4-12. The Jags one weakness on defense was run defense. It was instantly improved after Dareus got their. Darby is the Eagles #1 cb.

 

we traded really talented players and replaced them with JAGs.  It could be the difference between us ending a 17 year drought and missing the playoffs again in one of the worst AFCs in a long time.

They're good players, no doubt. Are you saying these teams aren't in the same position without them? I believe they are. 

 

Are you also saying that had they remained we undoubtedly make the playoffs?

 

We had them together for years and they proved they weren't capable of a playoff run.

 

Yet here we are - without these 3 "difference makers" - with one week to go and quite alive for a playoff spot.

[Fan in Chicago]

5 minutes ago, What a Tuel said:

 

 

 

Edit2: I know, I know, it seems super obvious and easier said than done. But I am sensing a lot of detraction from the goal of getting our QB next year. That is troubling to me.

Not sure I am detecting that as much as you are. QB needs to be the single biggest priority this upcoming offseason, bar none.

[What a Tuel]

3 minutes ago, inaugural balls said:

They're good players, no doubt. Are you saying these teams aren't in the same position without them? I believe they are. 

 

Are you also saying that had they remained we undoubtedly make the playoffs?

 

We had them together for years and they proved they weren't capable of a playoff run.

 

Yet here we are - without these 3 "difference makers" - with one week to go and quite alive for a playoff spot.

 

I don't want to put words in their mouth, but my response to that would be if they are good enough for playoff bound, talented teams, then why are they not good enough for the bills to retain?

2 minutes ago, Fan in Chicago said:

Not sure I am detecting that as much as you are. QB needs to be the single biggest priority this upcoming offseason, bar none.

 

I hope you are right! 

[C.Biscuit97]

1 minute ago, inaugural balls said:

They're good players, no doubt. Are you saying these teams aren't in the same position without them? I believe they are. 

 

Are you also saying that had they remained we undoubtedly make the playoffs?

 

We had them together for years and they proved they weren't capable of a playoff run.

 

Yet here we are - without these 3 "difference makers" - with one week to go and quite alive for a playoff spot.

I think if the Rams didn't have Sammy, they are a much different team.  Sammy is their one deep threat and opens things up for Gurley. He draws the #1 cb and allows Woods and Kupp easier matchup underneath.  His impact goes beyond numbers and would have had a big impact on our offense as well.  Julio Jones doesn't get 150 yards every game but makes an impact just being on the field.

 

Dareus was the cherry on top for the Jags.  Our run defense has sucked since we traded him.  If they really wanted to win now, you keep MD. A 6th rounder would have been there after the season.  And The Eagles were good without Darby but he will be more important now without Wentz.

 

of all the moves, I'm fine with Darby because we did a good job replacing him.  But if we miss the playoffs, our passing attack and run defense would be major reasons why.  And we had 2 good players that we got rid of it.  That would be tough to shallow.