How would the Bills have done with Josh McCown this season?

[GoBills808]

22 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Benjamin has played less than 2 games as a Bill.  Mathews 10.  Both are out.

 

 

The Bills best WRs, again this year, are a RB and a TE.

OK I understand about Benjamin but why is Matthews out? The Jets guys you were comparing them to have only been there two years (Anderson) and one year (Kearse). Anderson is IMO not any better than Jones, and Matthews>Kearse. Clay has always featured heavily in the pass game so that's not surprising. I think you are overstating the Jets' WR corps and underselling ours by comparison...the Jets wideouts are not that great at all, McCown is just getting them the ball.

 

Interestingly, the Jets are throwing to their backs at an almost 2x more efficient rate than the Bills: 65/528 (8.12YPC) for the Jets as opposed to 89/444 (4.99YPC) for the Bills.

[Coach Tuesday]

Putting aside the respective talents of Tyrod and McCown - the Jets offense amazes me.  They can't really run the ball, but somehow they have WRs open over the middle on 9-12 yard slants on EVERY SINGLE PLAY.  How do they do this?  Scientists need to study how it's possible.  But that is basically their entire offense - McCown drops back, plants, and fires it over the middle for a completion on a slant pattern.  

[MarkyMannn]

On ‎12‎/‎6‎/‎2017 at 12:35 PM, ShadyBillsFan said:

McCown - 2017

Jets

Comp - 67.8

Yards - 2,880

TD - 18

Int -  8

Qbr - 96.7

 

So sad. A Journeyman JAG is better than our starter. 

Our starter will end up a journeyman jag

[SaviorPeterman]

If the Bills had McNown or Jay Cutler they probably would be in a more favorable spot right now, probably at least 7-5 maybe 8-4.

 

But for whatever reason McD was adamant about sticking with Tyrod Taylor when Whaley wanted him gone. But I think it's pretty clear he realizes that mistake now and why he's trying to ensure Peterman gets back into the lineup this weekend by being more stealth about the situation. E

[Buffalo Bills Fan]

I'd love Morton. But no thanks to McCown without him. Hes a great OC>

[LarryMadman]

On 12/6/2017 at 12:14 PM, hondo in seattle said:

 

800 yards more passing and 6 more TDs at the price of 4 more picks.  

add in there 2 extra rushing TDs also. 

 

Believe it or not but McCown has 5 rushing TDs this year and Tyrod has 3.

[DaBillsFanSince1973]

On 12/6/2017 at 10:00 AM, jmc12290 said:

I got murdered on this board for saying McCown was way better than he was given credit for.

 

Sup, haters.

 

with this OC, brady would suck

[billsredneck1]

On 12/6/2017 at 12:33 PM, DasNootz said:

I've asked this question a dozen times..., and it begs to question are we better off using our draft stock to fill in holes and build around a journeyman QB if we're not in position to get THE quarterback we want... I don't want to settle for the 4th or 5th guy off the board, which unfortunately we may still have to do, even if we trade up given the needs of other teams that will likely pick before us based upon record. 

 

 

 

 

well if the 4th or 5th guy is mayfield and with k'cs pick gives us the no.1 or no.2 sasquatch (sp?)..dt, i would be the happiest fan alive. keep and use our picks.

[Doc]

Who knows?  Would he be having a career year here or would he play like the career backup he is?

[Hapless Bills Fan]

On 12/6/2017 at 9:49 AM, The 9 Isles said:

Just thinking about how relatively well McCown has done for the Jets this year. He is AFC player of the week this week. 

 

If TT had been picked up by someone else last off season and we picked up McCown as a place holder I think we would be sitting in one of the wild card spots right now. 

 

It"s just a thought. I ready for all the aggressive flames coming my way.

 

McCown - 2017

Jets

Comp - 67.8

Yards - 2,880

TD - 18

Int -  8

Qbr - 96.7

 

Taylor -      2017

Bills

Comp - 63.2

Yards - 2,090

TD - 12

Int - 4

Qb r- 88.6

 

Not a huge difference in passing stats but that does not tell the whole story as everyone knows. This team seems to always bring out the woulda, coulda, shoulda’s. Oh well, maybe we finally get QB this draft. We’ll see. 

 

Actually, that IS a huge difference in passing stats.  The difference between 63.2% completion and 67.8% is the difference between the "great mediocrity" at QB and the top handful in the league.  It's not all dump-offs either, as McCown has a respectable 7.5 AY/A while Tyrod is 6.6.

That said, one has to look at the Other Side of the passing stat - the receiver.  Kerley is not having a great year (now suspended), but Anderson and Kearse >> Zay "may catch" Jones and whoever else the Bills have dragged out to start that week.  So if you want to engage in "what ifs", look at the receiving side too (what if we had resigned Woods, what if we didn't trade Watkins, what if Benjamin went through TC with us and was healthy).

Watching the Saints/Falcons on Thurs nite, it was pretty clear to me we do not have WR who can do the things either of those teams WR can do.

18 hours ago, SaviorPeterman said:

If the Bills had McNown or Jay Cutler they probably would be in a more favorable spot right now, probably at least 7-5 maybe 8-4.

 

But for whatever reason McD was adamant about sticking with Tyrod Taylor when Whaley wanted him gone. But I think it's pretty clear he realizes that mistake now and why he's trying to ensure Peterman gets back into the lineup this weekend by being more stealth about the situation. E

 

Anyone who thinks McCown has a career year with the WR and OL the Bills are fielding (and sometimes, the plays they're running) isn't watching the games too carefully

Anyone who thinks Cutler >> Taylor...I just don't know what to say about that.  Nothing passes that test - not eyeballs, not stats, not mobility to save his a** behind our OL, nothing.
 

[Doc]

12 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Actually, that IS a huge difference in passing stats.  The difference between 63.2% completion and 67.8% is the difference between the "great mediocrity" at QB and the top handful in the league.  It's not all dump-offs either, as McCown has a respectable 7.5 AY/A while Tyrod is 6.6.

That said, one has to look at the Other Side of the passing stat - the receiver.  Kerley is not having a great year (now suspended), but Anderson and Kearse >> Zay "may catch" Jones and whoever else the Bills have dragged out to start that week.  So if you want to engage in "what ifs", look at the receiving side too (what if we had resigned Woods, what if we didn't trade Watkins, what if Benjamin went through TC with us and was healthy).

Watching the Saints/Falcons on Thurs nite, it was pretty clear to me we do not have WR who can do the things either of those teams WR can do.

 

Anyone who thinks McCown has a career year with the WR and OL the Bills are fielding (and sometimes, the plays they're running) isn't watching the games too carefully

Anyone who thinks Cutler >> Taylor...I just don't know what to say about that.  Nothing passes that test - not eyeballs, not stats, not mobility to save his a** behind our OL, nothing.
 

 

The Jets' receivers are also having career years and at least in the case of Kearse and Seferian-Jenkins, previously had better QB's throwing to them than McCown.  I suppose it's the OC.

[Teddy KGB]

18 hours ago, DaBillsFanSince1973 said:

 

with this OC, brady would suck

 

?

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

On 12/6/2017 at 11:00 AM, jmc12290 said:

I got murdered on this board for saying McCown was way better than he was given credit for.

 

Sup, haters.

 

...."shoulda....coulda....woulda"......always works......hindsight is a beautiful thing....now if we had signed Keenum......

[RussellDopeland]

McCown is an abortive mediocrity of a quarterback- any argument that this team would be better off with a starting QB of his limited skill-set is absurd. Taylor may be nothing more than a career backup masquerading as a starter; but advocating for McCown over Taylor is akin to wanting a Matt Cassell as your starter, as opposed to Kelly Holcomb. For Christmas we need to give me some matches and a gas can to Terry and Kim so they can burn this f#&@%$€ thing down and start from scratch.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

On 12/8/2017 at 11:34 AM, Captain Hindsight said:

Better comparison would be Brian Hoyer. He reportedly had a deal in place with the Bills before SF offered him a chance to start

 

6 games, 0-6, how did that work out for them?

 

Hoyer is one of those "fool's gold" QB imo.  He had that mystique of "backed up Brady, must be good" from NE. 

Texans shot themselves in the foot kicking Fitzpatrick to the curb to replace him with Hoyer, because you know, poor guy, he was buried on the Browns, only to have that sad awakening. 

SF shot themselves in the foot thinking "Hey, he looked OK in Chicago with Fox , he can be our bridge guy" only to find out "Bridge over Troubled Waters" is what he was.

[Boatdrinks]

With McCown at QB, the Bills likely have two more wins at this point and get a wildcard berth. 

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

...yup....Browns knew they were all set at QB and let the prolific one walk knowing how he would fare elsewhere based on his laurels....perhaps this is the "Keenum Effect" as in dammit, "shoulda....coulda...woulda...?...seriously?...............

[JohnC]

On ‎12‎/‎6‎/‎2017 at 11:02 AM, GunnerBill said:

He has played better than Tyrod but he isn't great.  It is why I hate the rush to judge QBs just on their most recent season.  I actually think the Colin Cowherd theory of once a QB has played in their league for 5 years then throw out their best year and throw out their worst year what you are left with is probably what they are.  

The thing about a qb like McCown in comparison to Taylor is that even though he is average at best you can still run a more well rounded offense. The passing offense that Taylor directs is very primitive and simplistic. Asking an OC to create an offense to manage his limitations  is like asking a soldier to take out half of the bullets that he has in his rifle when he is in combat. Although many people were up in arms when Peterman started in the Charger game I was not one of them. I understand the frustration and exasperation that this staff has to contend with when it watches the game tape. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

16 hours ago, JohnC said:

The thing about a qb like McCown in comparison to Taylor is that even though he is average at best you can still run a more well rounded offense. The passing offense that Taylor directs is very primitive and simplistic. Asking an OC to create an offense to manage his limitations  is like asking a soldier to take out half of the bullets that he has in his rifle when he is in combat. Although many people were up in arms when Peterman started in the Charger game I was not one of them. I understand the frustration and exasperation that this staff has to contend with when it watches the game tape. 

 

True but incomplete.  With Taylor, you do give up some things that other average QB can do.  You also gain some things other QB can't do.   To see this, one need only look as far as last year.  A better analogy to your "half the bullets" might be to consider the American Revolution.  With Taylor, you need to give up the idea of fighting a battle by having your troops form a square and fire muskets on command.  But you gain the ability to fire rifles accurately from behind trees.  Is this a problem?  Well, yes, if you insist on fighting a battle by forming a square.  No, if you figure out ways to attack by firing rifles behind trees.

So that is Thing 1 that bothers me about our current coaching staff:  Dennison is not showing the flexibility and creativity to utilize the players he has to best advantage.

I was not up in arms when Peterman was asked to start the Chargers game.  I figured the coaches saw him every day, if they thought he was ready, he was ready. 

Not even close.  It is significant that other rookies haven't thrown 5 INTs, not because they couldn't, but because they typically "get the flick" after, say, 3, "Oh, I Can't Do That".  Except Our Boy Nate, who kept throwing and throwing and throwing like the Energizer Bunny 'til they got the hook.  Other QB have said the sense of pressure in the pocket (when to hold it, when to fold it) is one of those things that can't really be taught.

So that is Thing 2 that bothers me about our current coaching staff: We need to rely on their player evaluation skills to build the team, but thinking Peterman was ready when actually he played like that plonks a giant burning Question Mark on their talent evaluation lawn.

[Teddy KGB]

3 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

True but incomplete.  With Taylor, you do give up some things that other average QB can do.  You also gain some things other QB can't do.   To see this, one need only look as far as last year.  A better analogy to your "half the bullets" might be to consider the American Revolution.  With Taylor, you need to give up the idea of fighting a battle by having your troops form a square and fire muskets on command.  But you gain the ability to fire rifles accurately from behind trees.  Is this a problem?  Well, yes, if you insist on fighting a battle by forming a square.  No, if you figure out ways to attack by firing rifles behind trees.

So that is Thing 1 that bothers me about our current coaching staff:  Dennison is not showing the flexibility and creativity to utilize the players he has to best advantage.

I was not up in arms when Peterman was asked to start the Chargers game.  I figured the coaches saw him every day, if they thought he was ready, he was ready. 

Not even close.  It is significant that other rookies haven't thrown 5 INTs, not because they couldn't, but because they typically "get the flick" after, say, 3, "Oh, I Can't Do That".  Except Our Boy Nate, who kept throwing and throwing and throwing like the Energizer Bunny 'til they got the hook.  Other QB have said the sense of pressure in the pocket (when to hold it, when to fold it) is one of those things that can't really be taught.

So that is Thing 2 that bothers me about our current coaching staff: We need to rely on their player evaluation skills to build the team, but thinking Peterman was ready when actually he played like that plonks a giant burning Question Mark on their talent evaluation lawn.

http://www.cover1.net/taylor-held-onto-the-ball-too-long-but-the-offensive-line-held-their-own/

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 minute ago, Air it out Fitzy said:

http://www.cover1.net/taylor-held-onto-the-ball-too-long-but-the-offensive-line-held-their-own/

 

Alas, I would love to read it as I hold Cover1 in high regard,  but apparently I must be some sort of premium subscriber for access.  Would you care to summarize?

I'm quite sure it's correct - it's a fault that was noted in him last year and the year before, yet I felt the play design compensated.  Is Erik observing that 1-2 WR are open and yet he holds on?

[JohnC]

2 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

True but incomplete.  With Taylor, you do give up some things that other average QB can do.  You also gain some things other QB can't do.   To see this, one need only look as far as last year.  A better analogy to your "half the bullets" might be to consider the American Revolution.  With Taylor, you need to give up the idea of fighting a battle by having your troops form a square and fire muskets on command.  But you gain the ability to fire rifles accurately from behind trees.  Is this a problem?  Well, yes, if you insist on fighting a battle by forming a square.  No, if you figure out ways to attack by firing rifles behind trees.

So that is Thing 1 that bothers me about our current coaching staff:  Dennison is not showing the flexibility and creativity to utilize the players he has to best advantage.

I was not up in arms when Peterman was asked to start the Chargers game.  I figured the coaches saw him every day, if they thought he was ready, he was ready. 

Not even close.  It is significant that other rookies haven't thrown 5 INTs, not because they couldn't, but because they typically "get the flick" after, say, 3, "Oh, I Can't Do That".  Except Our Boy Nate, who kept throwing and throwing and throwing like the Energizer Bunny 'til they got the hook.  Other QB have said the sense of pressure in the pocket (when to hold it, when to fold it) is one of those things that can't really be taught.

So that is Thing 2 that bothers me about our current coaching staff: We need to rely on their player evaluation skills to build the team, but thinking Peterman was ready when actually he played like that plonks a giant burning Question Mark on their talent evaluation lawn.

Thank you for the well thought out response. But respectfully I disagree with it. The problem with a qb that has a limited repertoire of plays to draw from is that other teams adjust to what you are good at without the need to focus on what you are not good at. When the passing plays you can proficiently execute are so limited because you can't adeptly go through progressions, make anticipation throws or have good downfield accuracy then the defense has a tremendous advantage. What's more evident this year compared to last year is that the defenses are making it a priority to contain him in the pocket and force him to play within that congestion area that he is not comfortable with. Which demonstrates my point that teams are making adjustments to his unique style of play. 

 

What's evident is that Taylor who is a seven year veteran has not shown an ability to advance/grow his game. He is what he is. The argument that Taylor is better than Peterman or vice versa means little to me. Neither are franchise qbs, and neither will ever be. That's why I so ardently argue for us to do what needs to be done to come out of the next draft with a qb who has the potential to be a franchise qb.  

[Hapless Bills Fan]

On 12/9/2017 at 9:20 AM, Doc said:

 

The Jets' receivers are also having career years and at least in the case of Kearse and Seferian-Jenkins, previously had better QB's throwing to them than McCown.  I suppose it's the OC.

 

Mmm, could make an argument Kearse had a better year in Seattle in 2015.  He's getting more targets/game this year, so his ypg are up.  Had a better catch % then.  Bottom line, he's not "on fire" doing eons better than he'd done before.  Better QB throwing to him, I would say Wilson >>> McCown.
 

Sefarian-Jenkins, yeah, career year, but in a fairly short career and with better receivers ahead of him in Tampa and last year with Jets.  Winston >> McCown?  Airs it out a lot more, for a lot more yards, certainly.

 

I guess not entirely sure what the point is - are you arguing we wouldn't have predicted Kearse, Kerley, and Sefarian-Jenkins to be better than Jones, Matthews, Holmes, Clay?

I can see that point statistically.  Certainly Clay has played well when he's played, better than Sefarian-Jenkins, and I had high hopes for Jones that have not come to fruition.


 

 

 

11 minutes ago, JohnC said:

Thank you for the well thought out response. But respectfully I disagree with it. The problem with a qb that has a limited repertoire of plays to draw from is that other teams adjust to what you are good at without the need to focus on what you are not good at. When the passing plays you can proficiently execute are so limited because you can't adeptly go through progressions, make anticipation throws or have good downfield accuracy then the defense has a tremendous advantage. What's more evident this year compared to last year is that the defenses are making it a priority to contain him in the pocket and force him to play within that congestion area that he is not comfortable with. Which demonstrates my point that teams are making adjustments to his unique style of play. 

 

What's evident is that Taylor who is a seven year veteran has not shown an ability to advance/grow his game. He is what he is. The argument that Taylor is better than Peterman or vice versa means little to me. Neither are franchise qbs, and neither will ever be. That's why I so ardently argue for us to do what needs to be done to come out of the next draft with a qb who has the potential to be a franchise qb.  

 

You're welcome.

 

My counter-point is that this year, the Bills have not "done the experiment" of focus on that repetoire of plays Taylor showed he was good at last year.  Don't you think last year teams tried to contain Taylor, and stop the run?  They were unsuccessful more than not, hence top-10 scoring offense.  Why's that?

On the point of "come out of the next draft with a QB", we agree entirely.

Edited December 10, 2017 by Hapless Bills Fan

[Big Turk]

I dunno dog...shaky on the throws..timing is off...I'm just not feeling it...

 

You gotta come a little harder dog...take too many sacks...not good late in games...I'm just not buying it dog...

 

I dunno dog.

22 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

6 games, 0-6, how did that work out for them?

 

Hoyer is one of those "fool's gold" QB imo.  He had that mystique of "backed up Brady, must be good" from NE. 

Texans shot themselves in the foot kicking Fitzpatrick to the curb to replace him with Hoyer, because you know, poor guy, he was buried on the Browns, only to have that sad awakening. 

SF shot themselves in the foot thinking "Hey, he looked OK in Chicago with Fox , he can be our bridge guy" only to find out "Bridge over Troubled Waters" is what he was.

 

Doesnt anyone remember the last time we played Cleveland and he was terrible then got replaced by Manziel late?

Edited December 10, 2017 by matter2003

[Teddy KGB]

32 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Alas, I would love to read it as I hold Cover1 in high regard,  but apparently I must be some sort of premium subscriber for access.  Would you care to summarize?

I'm quite sure it's correct - it's a fault that was noted in him last year and the year before, yet I felt the play design compensated.  Is Erik observing that 1-2 WR are open and yet he holds on?

 

Just more of the hold the ball too long stuff that’s plagued his whole career.  

[harv shitz]

On 12/6/2017 at 11:51 AM, billsfan1959 said:

Or the Panthers...

Or the Jets (2nd game)...

Or the Saints....

Or New England...

100% spot on observation! Taylor cost us the Panthers game, the Jets game, the Pats game last week was very winnable, but, they wouldn't have beat Orchard Park High School with TT's 60 yards passing. The Saints game? Who knows. He was so rotten that it's hard to tell what may have played out with even marginally good QB play.