Pine Barrens Mafia Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 You keep pounding away at this. In three different threads I've asked the question when has tanking, in the NFL, as a planned thought out strategy prior to the season beginning ever been executed, resulting in the creation of a dynasty? The two examples are the Colts and Cowboys, both have been debunked. So know I ask give is an example? And how, pray tell, has the battle to 7-9 worked out for us? Has it built us a winning culture? Has it improved us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhitewalkerInPhilly Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 And if you could eliminate that worry, wouldn't you? I would. Take the sure bet. Trade shady and tyrod. Tank for 2 wins. We could trade Shady and Tyrod. They would still pick after the Jets. I would rather not too everything up to pick after them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 We could trade Shady and Tyrod. They would still pick after the Jets. I would rather not too everything up to pick after them. You think. I think their defense is better than ours and removing shady would completely cripple the offense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott7975 Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 (edited) Broncos went 4-12 in 2010 giving them the second pick in the draft. They used that pick on Von Miller who propelled them to the playoffs 5 straight years afterwards with 2 superbowl appearances in the same timeframe. In all seriousness, I dont want the team to tank on purpose. I think they will half ass get there on there own though. Possibly a top 5 pick but not good enough to get the QB they would want. Too many teams are not going to be willing to trade out because they too want the same QB. Without a franchise QB the best this team is ever going to do is be playoff fodder and stepping stone to the superbowl. Its a fact. One that people may not want to believe but a fact anyways. We are not getting to the Superbowl with the Tyrod Taylors and the Cardale Jones of the NFL. Of course they could still get a franchise QB picking later in the draft but those odds are very slim. Edited August 23, 2017 by Scott7975 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
26CornerBlitz Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 (edited) Broncos went 4-12 in 2010 giving them the second pick in the draft. They used that pick on Von Miller who propelled them to the playoffs 5 straight years afterwards with 2 superbowl appearances in the same timeframe. In all seriousness, I dont want the team to tank on purpose. I think they will half ass get there on there own though. Possibly a top 5 pick but not good enough to get the QB they would want. Too many teams are not going to be willing to trade out because they too want the same QB. Tank talk is silly as it guarantees nothing. There have been plenty of QBs selected in the top 10 who have been total busts. Conversely, QBs drafted later in the 1st round or beyond have done quite well. Edited August 23, 2017 by 26CornerBlitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 That's exactly why you deal Shady and Tyrod. When you are ready to win will they be a part of that? I don't think so. Will the Bills pick earlier without them? I think so. If they pick earlier they are able to get their QB while preserving the other picks to fill out the roster. I understand the principal. It's just so many winning franchises worked their way up to being competitive by building without the tear down. Then the right QB fell in and they crossed the chasm. If the tear down accelerates it, I'd be down. I'm just don't see where it ever had. And in the meantime if the experiment fails you just watch a losing talentless p.o.s. Instead of at least an exciting couple elite guys that can grit out some wins and entertaining football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott7975 Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 (edited) Tank talk is silly as it guarantees nothing. There have been plenty of QBs selected in the top 10 who have been total busts. Conversely, QBs drafted in the 1st round or later have done quite well. As I said, I am not rooting for them to tank on purpose. I still think it would benefit the team if they did though. I agree with your post, but they have to get pretty darn lucky to get a QB that does well. There really aren't any guarantees. Just have to hope the front office knows what the hell it is doing unlike the past. Honestly, I wouldn't view trading Shady as a horrible thing. He is old and has at best a couple years left. He will be lucky to sniff the playoffs with this team. On the flipside he could turn into a talented, young, and small cost rookie player that could give us 4 years of cheap play. That's not tanking to me. That's being smart. That's managing your team for the future and not the now. The now would will be damn lucky to go .500. Keep him to keep the fans happy? That's not smart football. Edited August 23, 2017 by Scott7975 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punching Bag Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 And made two trades that made them worse this year..... When you give away the best player in any trade you are trading down. How is that trying to win???? I guess you do not understand what the word "give" means. When you do, come back and discuss (or not). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan60 Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 I would hope no true fan would wish for a tank. Trying to orchestrate something like that when you only control 1/32 of the moving pieces is a fool's errand. Whether they pick in the top 5 next year or not is no guarantee they get a franchise guy. The draft class for 2018 is only a bucket of wishful thinking and will stay that way till spring. McD gets three more weeks of player evaluation and then he'd better have found a way to win with what he has. The Dline looks solid, the back end is progressing with Gaines looking more comfortable, need help on the O line, Shady is Shady and Williams is serviceable, Clay is solid and O'Leary is a pleasant surprise, Jones looks like the real deal and O'Reilly, Shorts and Streater (I hope) will make it. There's enough here to win with. And there will be an opportunity to fill in the blanks on cut down day. And that just leaves the 800 pound gorilla in the room (I'll keep my opinion to myself on that one). A hand full of stars and a whole bunch of role players who show up when you need them will win you games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
26CornerBlitz Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 As I said, I am not rooting for them to tank on purpose. I still think it would benefit the team if they did though. I agree with your post, but they have to get pretty darn lucky to get a QB that does well. There really aren't any guarantees. Just have to hope the front office knows what the hell it is doing unlike the past. Honestly, I wouldn't view trading Shady as a horrible thing. He is old and has at best a couple years left. He will be lucky to sniff the playoffs with this team. On the flipside he could turn into a talented, young, and small cost rookie player that could give us 4 years of cheap play. That's not tanking to me. That's being smart. That's managing your team for the future and not the now. The now would will be damn lucky to go .500. Keep him to keep the fans happy? That's not smart football. The key word is could. Given his age and contract value I question how much his trade value is. It's called trading an established star player for a possibility that a non-premium draft pick pans out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott7975 Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 (edited) The key word is could. Given his age and contract value I question how much his trade value is. It's called trading an established star player for a possibility that a non-premium draft pick pans out. Of course, I agree... could. On the flipside Shady could get injured this year, end up on IR, and decide to retire for all we know. I mean, it could happen. Maybe you can only get say a fourth for him. Take a third and a fourth trade up to a second pick. Lots of things can happen. You don't have to use that specific pick. It could be used to trade up. Even still... you are right. We could end up with a scrub. I think its worth it only because he is on the downside of his career and in reality isn't going to get us very far except for maybe some feel good wins that mean nothing in the grand scheme. If this team was truly ready to compete now, I would feel differently about that. On the other hand, I am not a fan of the Watkins trade. Unless of course there are reasons for it we don't know. Watkins was a young player with massive potential. He is the type of player you hope to draft with said draft capital. If they knew they couldn't sign him fine. If they knew his injury would forever hobble him fine. If he was not a team player fine. Not just for cap savings and a 2nd round pick though. I feel completely different about these two scenarios because one player is old and isn't going to help us win a championship. The other player is young and may still help us win a championship(well now he wont because traded but you get the gist.) Edited August 23, 2017 by Scott7975 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_Formerly_of_Roch Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 That's not the worst thing either. Assuming you're correct, next spring they trade a couple more stars, or if nothing else cut them. Let Peterman play next year, you have six top three round picks, start them all, they get a year under their belt and you could again have a top pick and take the QB then. At least you'd have some potential top players with a years experience under their belt too, plus guys from this year with 2 years playing time. I don't think it's the worst idea to first get the players around the QB, then get the QB. Seems to work better that way. See Seattle, Dallas, Tenn. The problem that people are failing to see is that there may not be a taker for all of that draft capital. Jets, 49ers, Jags, Dolphins, Browns and Cardinals can all be worse than the Bills. They could all be looking at QB. It takes 2 to tango and you may not find the willing trade partner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Frankish Reich Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 Broncos went 4-12 in 2010 giving them the second pick in the draft. They used that pick on Von Miller who propelled them to the playoffs 5 straight years afterwards with 2 superbowl appearances in the same timeframe. In all seriousness, I dont want the team to tank on purpose. I think they will half ass get there on there own though. Possibly a top 5 pick but not good enough to get the QB they would want. Too many teams are not going to be willing to trade out because they too want the same QB. Without a franchise QB the best this team is ever going to do is be playoff fodder and stepping stone to the superbowl. Its a fact. One that people may not want to believe but a fact anyways. We are not getting to the Superbowl with the Tyrod Taylors and the Cardale Jones of the NFL. Of course they could still get a franchise QB picking later in the draft but those odds are very slim. Hey, that Broncos team didn't tank on purpose either. They were 8-8 the previous season and there was plenty of talk in the offseason about Josh McDaniels taking them to the next level. So not to worry, Tank Proponents. Sometimes tanks just happen all by themselves, just a combination of a bunch of Sammy/Boldin/Glenn nudges aligning ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mat68 Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 Good read! I've still yet to see one defensible argument on tanking in the NFL as the best path to success The browns have played the draft roulette for years and are still nowhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Frankish Reich Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 The browns have played the draft roulette for years and are still nowhere. Are we so sure about that? I mean, I don't think they're going to compete for the playoffs this year, but when it happens, it happens fast. See Lions, Detroit. 2008: 0-16. 2009: 2-14. 2010: 6-10. 2011: playoffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan89 Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 There isn't a huge return for Shady. Maybe you get a 4th round pick in 2018 and a 5th round pick in 2019. No team is going to give up anything more than mid round picks for 29 year old running back with many years in the league. I would much rather keep him and try to be competitive this year. Tyrod I don't see a big market for unless a contending team with a similar style QB gets hurt. If a Russell Wilson or Cam Newton gets hurt then I can see a team getting desperate to salvage a season and trading a 1st and a mid rounder (It would have to play out similar to the Sam Bradford trade circumstances.) If you found yourself getting a Godfather offer for either player I think you consider it. But right now you shouldn't give away those players just to get something and tank. That's stupid and just foolish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bills Fan of St Augustine Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 Great post, hopefully this puts the tanking talk to bed. I wish... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatszel Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 They're not going to intentionally tank, but the schedule may bring us a top 5 pick. The defense will keep us in games. But up to this point, Tyrod hasn't been a guy to win us games with his arm. If Shady misses any time the offense will be abysmal. There are teams we have to watch out for, who I think may be in front of us, as far as drafting a QB. I think San Fran gets their guy in Cousins for 2018 and beyond. Jacksonville will definitely be in the QB market. The Jets without a doubt. The Browns may be in the market still, but I think Kizer might be their answer at the position. I have said all along he reminds me of Donovan McNabb and I'm sticking to that. Arizona is going to need a replacement for Palmer and soon. Don't be surprised if a few of these team with aging QB's start looking to the future like NO and the Chargers. It's all about Darnold and Allen if you ask me. Hopefully we are in a position to get one or the other. Even if we get the 5th pick in the draft we will more than likely get the 4th choice in the QB's in the draft. There is no way we will be worse than the Jets, Cleveland, San Francisco. We could have 10 #1's and we will not get ahead of any one of those teams. So Tanking would not help our draft position to get better than the 4th QB on the board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
26CornerBlitz Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 No need to tank according to this ESPN Fantasy writer: @MikeClayNFL They say you learn something every day. Today I learned that many Bills fans are in massive denial as to how bad this team will be in 2017. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rico Posted August 23, 2017 Share Posted August 23, 2017 Even if we get the 5th pick in the draft we will more than likely get the 4th choice in the QB's in the draft. There is no way we will be worse than the Jets, Cleveland, San Francisco. We could have 10 #1's and we will not get ahead of any one of those teams. So Tanking would not help our draft position to get better than the 4th QB on the board. If the Jets beat the Bills Week 1, there may be a way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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