Go on record regarding the trades

[BringBackOrton]

If this staff is thinking ahead, and by these moves you have to assume they are, then there's a reason they felt Watkins was worth moving for that additional second. You can argue otherwise, but there's nothing in these trades that makes me think they're not operating with a long term plan in mind. That leads me to believe that either A: they knew they weren't keeping Watkins and got value for him while they could or B: they have reasons for wanting an additional 2nd in 2018.

 

You're arguing C: that they dealt Watkins because they don't know what they're doing. Which of those three is least likely?

Seeing as every Bills FO hired in the last decade has been fired in disgrace for sucking, I'd say C. and sleep soundly.

 

Signing Vlad Ducassee and losing a third round comp pick isn't "thinking ahead." They are making egregious errors early and often.

Edited August 12, 2017 by jmc12290

[San-O]

No.

 

Bad trades.

 

Sammy is going to be a superstar. With two ones and a two next year we can get the franchise QB we want without the extra two if that's what they are doing. I wouldn't mind the Darby trade if we didn't do the Sammy one. I would have taken Matthews and a 3 for Darby.

 

 

Obviously the Bills weren't that interesting in betting he would be healthy this year and probably weren't interested in signing him to a long term contract next year even if he did.

[BillsFan4]

Seeing as every Bills FO hired in the last decade has been fired in disgrace for sucking, I'd say C. and sleep soundly.

 

Signing Vlad Ducassee and losing a third round comp pick isn't "thinking ahead." They are making egregious errors early and often.

Wasn't ducasse (and the other players that formulate into the comp pick) signed before Beane and his front office staff were even hired? doesn't seem fair to blame them.

 

And it wasn't just signing him that loses a 3rd comp pick. It's a combination of Ducasse, Holmes, Hauschka and Ryan Davis.

They have to cut 3 of those 4 to get the comp 3rd IIRC. I fully expect at least 2 of the 4 to be cut. I don't think Hauschka will be, and Holmes is a toss up. If they can

[BringBackOrton]

Wasn't ducasse (and the other players that formulate into the comp pick) signed before Beane and his front office staff were even hired? doesn't seem fair to blame them.

 

And it wasn't just signing him that loses a 3rd comp pick. It's a combination of Ducasse, Holmes, Hauschka and Ryan Davis.

They have to cut 3 of those 4 to get the comp 3rd IIRC. I fully expect at least 2 of the 4 to be cut. I don't think Hauschka will be, and Holmes is a toss up. If they can

If you're going to trade your best WR for a second round pick, why sign a #4 WR when he's going to cost you a third rounder?

 

It makes no sense.

 

McD was calling the shots then and now. If Beane was looking ahead to that pick, Ducasse, Davis and Holmes would already be gone.

[GoBills808]

Seeing as every Bills FO hired in the last decade has been fired in disgrace for sucking, I'd say C. and sleep soundly.

Not really pertinent to the discussion about the current one, though.

[26CornerBlitz]

One more comparison for ***** and grins.

 

@RapSheet

Interesting note from @NFLResearch on new #Rams WR Sammy Watkins... look at his 1st 3 seasons compared to Julio Jones. Had same injury, too:

[Boatdrinks]

Obviously the Bills weren't that interesting in betting he would be healthy this year and probably weren't interested in signing him to a long term contract next year even if he did.

Great, they don't want to sign guys if they are healthy and produce. Glad they're in charge of this team now.

One more comparison for ***** and grins.

 

@RapSheet

 

Interesting note from @NFLResearch on new #Rams WR Sammy Watkins... look at his 1st 3 seasons compared to Julio Jones. Had same injury, too:

 

 

But you don't understand, Sammy is softer than the tough guys around Buffalo and yelled at them for harassing him on his social media. He had to go, so let's not bring logic and reasoning into this. Forget about the potential payoff down the road, get something for that wimp!

[BringBackOrton]

Not really pertinent to the discussion about the current one, though.

Hmm, and here I thought the brilliant minds behind the Whaley extension and Rex Ryan experiment hired McD and Beane.

[8-8 Forever?]

If Sammy left and we did indeed get our franchise Qb in the 2018, we had zilch from Sammy. I'd rather get the second than just lose him.

bingo. they were never giving Sammy a big contract. he wouldn't have done much this year with the run game and TT's deficiencies, plus he is damaged goods. we'll see, but he could be out of the league in a few years from injury or Larry Fitz. Beane took the 2nd and a starter and moved on.

[26CornerBlitz]

bingo. they were never giving Sammy a big contract. he wouldn't have done much this year with the run game and TT's deficiencies, plus he is damaged goods. we'll see, but he could be out of the league in a few years from injury or Larry Fitz. Beane took the 2nd and a starter and moved on.

 

Sheesh! People have to make stuff up to justify their POV.

[BillsFanM.D.]

Since this is all about being on the record:

 

1. I hate the Watkins trade. If the 2018 draft were today, would you not spend a first (late first at worst) to draft a 24 year old Sammy Watkins. What future are we planning for when you trade that guy? I don't get it at all. He'll be special and this trade will be 'bad' down the road.

 

2. I liked the Darby trade. I think in our current D (assuming our front four is as advertised) allows for more pedestrian corner play. Even if we did not acquire Gaines, I have no beef trading a 'solid' starter in Darby for a 'solid' starter in Matthews....plus a pick.

 

As a final image, I almost threw up when I saw that photoshopped pic of Watkins in a Rams uni. I don't get it. The Julio Jones comparisons (injuries and talent) make me very anxious.

 

I hope Mr. Beane proves me wrong.

[Boatdrinks]

How do you know? Maybe that extra pick is what it'll take.

 

That's a long shot, and it could be acquired in other ways than trading the team's best WR, and one of its most talented young players. It's hard to envision , for a team not tanking, to finish high enough where an extra second was worth the amount of spots surrendered for a team to move down all that far. If the Bills were in full on tank mode, perhaps. But where they'll likely finish the payoff for a 2nd round pick for a possible stud WR is not likely to be realized.

[26CornerBlitz]

@TBNSports

LeSean McCoy says he can relate to Sammy Watkins getting traded for "a guy that he's probably better than

http://buffalonews.com/2017/08/11/lesean-mccoy-can-relate-sammy-watkins-getting-traded-guy-hes-probably-better/

 

"Obviously it's a difference with the two," McCoy said. "So we'll see how they use Jordan. It's hard to tell right now. The only thing we can go off is the trade and the player's potential. If you compare the two, it's an obvious grade who's better, but you don't know how things will play out."

[Boatdrinks]

bingo. they were never giving Sammy a big contract. he wouldn't have done much this year with the run game and TT's deficiencies, plus he is damaged goods. we'll see, but he could be out of the league in a few years from injury or Larry Fitz. Beane took the 2nd and a starter and moved on.

 

Could be, but could be a total stud. I'd take that chance vs a 2nd and a thoroughly average throw in CB. Not wanting to pay a player if he is productive is a poor argument for trading him.

[Rochesterfan]

Since this is all about being on the record:

 

1. I hate the Watkins trade. If the 2018 draft were today, would you not spend a first (late first at worst) to draft a 24 year old Sammy Watkins. What future are we planning for when you trade that guy? I don't get it at all. He'll be special and this trade will be 'bad' down the road.

 

2. I liked the Darby trade. I think in our current D (assuming our front four is as advertised) allows for more pedestrian corner play. Even if we did not acquire Gaines, I have no beef trading a 'solid' starter in Darby for a 'solid' starter in Matthews....plus a pick.

 

As a final image, I almost threw up when I saw that photoshopped pic of Watkins in a Rams uni. I don't get it. The Julio Jones comparisons (injuries and talent) make me very anxious.

 

I hope Mr. Beane proves me wrong.

 

 

Point one is totally irrelevant - yes I would draft a 24 yr old SW in the first if he was under a rookie contract and the injuries were not there.

 

I would not draft a 24 yr old SW with the known injury history and knowing you need to sign him at 13-15 million a year contract with the injury history.

 

You trade the guy to get a younger version that is price controlled for 4 or 5 years and fits the scheme you want to run.

 

The Julio Jones comparison is great if we had Matt Ryan and a passing offense, but that is not what we are doing this year or probably next year - so get something and move on.

[Boatdrinks]

Point one is totally irrelevant - yes I would draft a 24 yr old SW in the first if he was under a rookie contract and the injuries were not there.

I would not draft a 24 yr old SW with the known injury history and knowing you need to sign him at 13-15 million a year contract with the injury history.

You trade the guy to get a younger version that is price controlled for 4 or 5 years and fits the scheme you want to run.

The Julio Jones comparison is great if we had Matt Ryan and a passing offense, but that is not what we are doing this year or probably next year - so get something and move on.

But you didn't have to pay Watkins a long term deal until after 2018 season. It must be liberating to be so comfortable with continued losing.....

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

But you didn't have to pay Watkins a long term deal until after 2018 season. It must be liberating to be so comfortable with continued losing.....

One could say the same thing to you. Any change to your 8-8 comfort zone and you freak out.

[Bob&Doug]

Voted definitely yes.....will miss Sammy, but his deep ball skills would've been wasted in this WC offensive scheme.

Edited August 13, 2017 by Bob&Doug

[Rochesterfan]

But you didn't have to pay Watkins a long term deal until after 2018 season. It must be liberating to be so comfortable with continued losing.....

After this year you either needed the the 5th year option or a franchise tag and both only gave you one year at 13 million or more.

 

Then you would need a long term deal or lose him for nothing. The Bills got something for him.

 

This is the first thing that has been different - keeping Sammy is the status Quo and the losing - having a vision that we are going to try and get a franchise QB and some players around him that is new. Will it work? We need to see, but you comfortable with losing would be to maintain the same old stuff with a guy that has brought them no where.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

Bills have been the farm team of the NFL for years with all the bad trades (Lynch, Peters, Cassel) that they have made.

 

To think they could have had UB's Khalil Mack.

 

Add 2014 as another draft where the Bills got nothing.

[Doc]

Bills have been the farm team of the NFL for years with all the bad trades (Lynch, Peters, Cassel) that they have made.

 

To think they could have had UB's Khalil Mack.

 

Add 2014 as another draft where the Bills got nothing.

Cassel? LOL!

[Straight Hucklebuck]

Cassel? LOL!

Yeah Dock, this team is so flippant about disposing of their talent and trading for other teams losers, I'm supposed to have faith that this regime can magically draft well?

 

Sammy I'm ok with, he is soft. But I didn't like the Darby move at all and have no faith in the 2nd and 3rd Round pick they got. The Bills are a farm team because the weight of losing always makes them fire their Coaches and FO which means constant roster turnover.

 

No team gets less out of their talent and draft picks as the Buffalo Bills.

[JM2009]

Yeah Dock, this team is so flippant about disposing of their talent and trading for other teams losers, I'm supposed to have faith that this regime can magically draft well?

 

Sammy I'm ok with, he is soft. But I didn't like the Darby move at all and have no faith in the 2nd and 3rd Round pick they got. The Bills are a farm team because the weight of losing always makes them fire their Coaches and FO which means constant roster turnover.

 

No team gets less out of their talent and draft picks as the Buffalo Bills.

The draft picks retained the last decade or so is terrible. Whole draft classes gone.

Edited August 13, 2017 by JM2009

[Kipers Hair]

This is a move straight out of Bill Belichick's book...it's not a good move, it's effing brilliant and about time we did something forward looking as opposed to moves to sell tickets or fool the fanbase into believing we are winners at current. Don't stop at good - strive for great.

[Doc]

Yeah Dock, this team is so flippant about disposing of their talent and trading for other teams losers, I'm supposed to have faith that this regime can magically draft well?

 

Sammy I'm ok with, he is soft. But I didn't like the Darby move at all and have no faith in the 2nd and 3rd Round pick they got. The Bills are a farm team because the weight of losing always makes them fire their Coaches and FO which means constant roster turnover.

 

No team gets less out of their talent and draft picks as the Buffalo Bills.

Are you perhaps thinking Cassel is someone else? Matt Cassel sucked in the brief time he was with the Bills and sucked after he left.

 

As for Darby, he played horribly last year in the same scheme he played in 2015. I didn't have much hope that he would rebound this year especially playing in a scheme that he's not as suited for so I had no problem with that trade.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

Are you perhaps thinking Cassel is someone else? Matt Cassel sucked in the brief time he was with the Bills and sucked after he left.

 

As for Darby, he played horribly last year in the same scheme he played in 2015. I didn't have much hope that he would rebound this year especially playing in a scheme that he's not as suited for so I had no problem with that trade.

I threw Cassel in there as an example because any common street fan knew he was completely washed up. But there were the gullible Bills, wasting a draft pick to get him to come in and "compete" for the starting position.

 

Gag me.

 

This team is so flippant throwing away their talent and trading picks for other teams garbage, see Bryce Brown.

[Doc]

I threw Cassel in there as an example because any common street fan knew he was completely washed up. But there were the gullible Bills, wasting a draft pick to get him to come in and "compete" for the starting position.

 

Gag me.

 

This team is so flippant throwing away their talent and trading picks for other teams garbage, see Bryce Brown.

Cassel was acquired using s 5th and 7th rounder and they got back a 6th. They then traded him for a 5th. They actually made out With him when all was said and done.

 

Brown was a mistake. But that's the great thing about hindsight.

[Boatdrinks]

After this year you either needed the the 5th year option or a franchise tag and both only gave you one year at 13 million or more.

Then you would need a long term deal or lose him for nothing. The Bills got something for him.

This is the first thing that has been different - keeping Sammy is the status Quo and the losing - having a vision that we are going to try and get a franchise QB and some players around him that is new. Will it work? We need to see, but you comfortable with losing would be to maintain the same old stuff with a guy that has brought them no where.

Lol okay . Yes 5th year option is a higher amount but perfectly manageable for this team with no huge QB contract. Trying to get a franchise QB is great ( they failed last time they tried with EJ in round 1) but hardly some novel concept. This theoretical QB will also need targets, and Watkins may have been a key there. Moving talented players out doesn't seem like some great step toward winning. That long term deal for SW wouldn't have come for possibly two more full seasons. If he played great you pay him. Keeping SW through 2018 would not have impeded the drafting of a potential franchise QB at all. Just leaves them with another hole to fill.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

Cassel was acquired using s 5th and 7th rounder and they got back a 6th. They then traded him for a 5th. They actually made out With him when all was said and done.

 

Brown was a mistake. But that's the great thing about hindsight.

Doc that's the thing....these guys are paid to know more than common fans.

 

So how is Beane any different? I don't listen to McDermott, I've tuned him out completely at this point. Walking cliche generator.

[Boatdrinks]

Cassel was acquired using s 5th and 7th rounder and they got back a 6th. They then traded him for a 5th. They actually made out With him when all was said and done.

Brown was a mistake. But that's the great thing about hindsight.

Cassell was also a mistake. He cost them the pick they needed to land Brandon Marshall just days later. It was down to the Jets and Bills and they CHI took the Jets pick because the Bills had dealt the higher of their two picks in that round (5th) to get Cassell . They may have made up for the pick somewhat, but having Marshall might have helped things.

Doc that's the thing....these guys are paid to know more than common fans.

So how is Beane any different? I don't listen to McDermott, I've tuned him out completely at this point. Walking cliche generator.

Man I hate that tired line about hindsight. Just an excuse. These FO guys are paid a lot of $$$ to be right. To have something called foresight that the average fan doesn't have.

This is a move straight out of Bill Belichick's book...it's not a good move, it's effing brilliant and about time we did something forward looking as opposed to moves to sell tickets or fool the fanbase into believing we are winners at current. Don't stop at good - strive for great.

I'm not seeing the comparison. BB can do what he does because he has Tom Brady. Getting fleeced out of Watkins for a second is hardly a brilliant, nor is it forward looking. It leaves a hole that must be filled via spending more draft capital or overpaying a FA. Much easier to just keep Watkins at his low number for this year, a manageable number in 2018 and see if he's worth the extension, but giving your potential QB a target for a couple years . This move is just more of the same. Let talent go before you have to pay market rate, get an aging vet whose best years are behind him to " hold it down". wash, rinse, repeat.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

Cassell was also a mistake. He cost them the pick they needed to land Brandon Marshall just days later. It was down to the Jets and Bills and they CHI took the Jets pick because the Bills had dealt the higher of their two picks in that round (5th) to get Cassell . They may have made up for the pick somewhat, but having Marshall might have helped things.

 

Man I hate that tired line about hindsight. Just an excuse. These FO guys are paid a lot of $$$ to be right. To have something called foresight that the average fan doesn't have.

Exactly.

 

Three years later and Whaley whiffed on QB, Coach, Watkins.

 

His best accomplishment is the Eagles calling him about McCoy.

 

 

Before that it was 71 year old Nix who again whiffed on Coach and who got caught on tape bashing his QB and gave away a HOF RB for complete garbage.

 

 

Now Beane comes in and ships 2 of the Bills Top 4 talents out the door for average players and some picks? And after 22 years of not one Playoff win I'm supposed to have faith that he knows what he's doing?

 

All around the Bills reek of losing. Pegula can't find the right people to get either team on the Playoffs, Brandon is still here, and we trade what little talent we have for more draft picks.

 

This regime has already shown its cards to me, and it's not good.

 

Gilmore walks, draft a CB to replace him and pass on two excellent college QBs while giving the Ravens backup QB his 3rd year starting ala Trent and Fitzpatrick and talk about hard work, running the ball and character.

 

 

YAWN. We've heard all of this before.

Edited August 13, 2017 by Straight Hucklebuck

[San-O]

Point one is totally irrelevant - yes I would draft a 24 yr old SW in the first if he was under a rookie contract and the injuries were not there.

 

I would not draft a 24 yr old SW with the known injury history and knowing you need to sign him at 13-15 million a year contract with the injury history.

 

You trade the guy to get a younger version that is price controlled for 4 or 5 years and fits the scheme you want to run.

 

The Julio Jones comparison is great if we had Matt Ryan and a passing offense, but that is not what we are doing this year or probably next year - so get something and move on.

 

 

and so ends the Sammy Watkins debacle.

 

 

At least they got SOMETHING for him. I think he probably plays half the season hurt/injured again and this point is totally forgotten.

[r00tabaga]

You have never watched the Eagles if you think Watkins and Matthews play at close to the same speed.

 

16 ypc vs. 11 ypc. JM is a possession receiver and SW has Julio Lite ability.

You don't happen to know their 3 year stats do you? Ya know, just so we can compare Julio and Watkins. Edited August 13, 2017 by r00tabaga

[26CornerBlitz]

 

 

and so ends the Sammy Watkins debacle.

 

 

At least they got SOMETHING for him. I think he probably plays half the season hurt/injured again and this point is totally forgotten.

 

Based on what?

[Straight Hucklebuck]

The Bills made the trades, therefore neither one will work out because the Bills have a long-standing tradition of losing.

[KRT88]

We finally gave a front office that shows some asset management skills and they are getting bashed. It was 80% Sammy was gonna walk at the end of the year. Was he gonna stay healthy enough(10 injuries in 3 years) to have a career year and get franchise tagged? And if we do that I'm guessing TT was actually pretty good!

 

The Darby move was shipping a man to man corner out and getting a zone guy back. That mice shocked me more than anything else, but people complaining Matthews is a slot guys makes no sense. He's 6-3, he can line up all over the place.

 

I'm hopeful they will be good this but I'm not any more or less hopeful today than 3 days ago. The team has flaws and lacks depth in key areas. However, now we have 6 picks in top 3 rounds and if management plays it cards correctly, a 7th will be added.

 

Now please get a QB so it can all mean something.

Edited August 13, 2017 by KRT88

[The Frankish Reich]

Running 2 to 1 in favor of the trades now after almost 400 votes from the most football savvy fans out there in Billsland. I gave the trades a thumbs up because the choice was a straight up/down. I would really have voted for an option that reads, "I liked the trades, but I don't like the timing." I realize they were showcasing Sammy in preseason game 1, so maybe he needed to show he could still stay on the field (for a whole quarter!) before he had any trade value, but setting that aside, I wish all of these moves had happened back in the winter or spring. I also wish they'd fired Whaley earlier, and that they'd moved on from Tyrod. In other words, not a half rebuild but a full one. But having re-signed Tyrod and given some of the big contracts and the impossibility of moving them (Glenn, Clay, Dareus), I see the sense in this. I don't think the Bills are a whole lot worse in 2017 because of these moves; if I were a betting man, I'd lower my estimate from 7-9 to 6-10. The main problem is that the Planet Alignment Theory that we needed to go, say, 10-6 -- the theory in which Sammy plays 16 healthy games, in which Darby plays like the rookie Darby, in which Zay Jones is the real deal and Dareus seems motivated again -- that theory is kind of out the window. But it wasn't likely to begin with. Now making the playoffs means going 4-0 against the Jets/Dolphins, staying unusually healthy, and getting some lucky bounces (one of those quirky high + turnover ratios). So I'm disappointed for 2017 because I think there's a little less cause for optimism than there was a few days ago, but I am glad overall to see a GM/coach who seem to have a realistic concept of where we are and where we need to be -- and most importantly, when we can get there -- to expect to win 10 games and be a legitimate contender for at least a 3-4 year run. But that run now starts in about 2020 ....

[QCity]

It was 80% Sammy was gonna walk at the end of the year.

 

 

80%??? That's pretty optimistic. I'd say it's more in the 98-99% range. One of the ironic things about Sammy's tenure here is that he is chastised for one infamous tweet, but he has pretty much said all the right things since the day he was drafted. He told us this was the team he always wanted to play for as a kid, he wants to spend his career here, etc, etc. He was clearly groomed well by his agency -- as all high draft picks are in this age of social media.

 

He also never threw his QB under the bus, but actions speak louder than words. We all watch the games. We've seen Sammy streaking wide open down the sidelines for an easy TD while TT over/underthrows him by 10 yards, only to see him throw his arms up in the air and stamp his feet in disgust. Does that look like he's having fun?

 

Do you think it's fun for him to sit on his couch and watch his peers play in the Pro Bowl every year? Think about that. Even in today's silly watered-down Pro Bowl alternate system Sammy can't even come close to an invite. Bah, he probably doesn't want the recognition, right?

 

I'm sure it must be fun to watch OBJ become an absolute superstar and national celebrity. Are we going to pretend that Sammy and his agent didn't notice the NFL-record $48M Nike contract that OBJ signed? Nah, he probably doesn't care about the money -- his last July tweet about how NFL players have to get paid more was probably a joke.

 

When we didn't pick up his option the guy didn't even seem upset. If teams like Dallas and Oakland came after him in the FA market, does anyone here still believe he would choose us over them?

 

It's time for fans to put their emotions aside and accept the fact that this guy wasn't re-signing here. Picking up his option or tagging him wasn't going to vault us to the Superbowl, it was only delaying the inevitable and putting us on the hook in the event of an injury.

[BillsFan4]

If you're going to trade your best WR for a second round pick, why sign a #4 WR when he's going to cost you a third rounder?

 

It makes no sense.

 

McD was calling the shots then and now. If Beane was looking ahead to that pick, Ducasse, Davis and Holmes would already be gone.

It doesn't seem to me like McDermott is calling the shots. Beane said he didn't even tell him about the Sammy trade until the night before it happened. Then they all discussed it - Pegula, McDermott and Beane and came to a conclusion. That sounds to me like a group effort, which is what they've said all along.

 

 

They hadn't traded Sammy yet when they signed Holmes though, and they could still end up cutting him and the others for the 3rd round comp pick.

I still think that's a likely scenario that they cut 3 of those 4 players for the comp pick. Especially if they're able to fill those holes when rosters are cut down to 53.

 

Again though, it's not just Holmes they need to cut. So it's not him alone that costs them a comp pick. It's 3 of these 4 players - Ducasse, Holmes, DiMarco (or Ryan Davis, I've seen both listed), and Stephen Hauschka.

 

Also, I'm not sure I'd say it makes no sense to sign needed players to fill out your roster, instead of getting a 3rd round comp pick a year from now (which is really a 4th round pick, since it is given after the 3rd round is over).

[The Frankish Reich]

And just for fun, some old threads suggesting we trade Sammy - kind of fun to look at the outrage at the very idea at the start, followed by a bunch of "but what could we realistically get for him" comments, and finally this spring the "we waited too long" realization.

 

1. After the 2014 season:

 

https://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/174558-trade-sammy-for-first-round-pick/?hl=trade+sammy

 

https://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/174837-no-first-round-pick-why-not-trade-sammy/?hl=trade%20sammy

 

2. After Week 1, 2015:

 

https://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/180914-trade-sam-watkins-to-dallas-for-a-1-and-a-3/?hl=trade+sammy&do=findComment&comment=3682930

 

3. After his option was declined:

 

https://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/193747-we-should-trade-sammy/?hl=trade+sammy